Plan 9 from Bell Labs (1995)

http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/9.html

by shawndumas • 14 years ago

51 53 14 years ago

jfb2• 14 years ago

I wish it had stuck.

In a related vein, I idly wonder if there's a project around intended to bring useful security to a practical Unix derivative. Nobody uses a big timesharing box any longer (for all reasonable definitions of nobody); and the protections mooted to keep "users" away from "wheel" are basically pointless and counterproductive in a world where attacks come from outside. Apple's code-signing is one reaction to this new reality; what's the current status of capability based systems?

deno• 14 years ago

You can do quite a bit in Linux with CGroups and SELinux. Projects making good use of those are Fedora, Systemd and Chromium browser.

jfb2• 14 years ago

I'll check it out. Next up, doing away with POSIX.

wmf• 14 years ago

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/capsicum/

rbanffy• 14 years ago

> the protections mooted to keep "users" away from "wheel" are basically pointless and counterproductive in a world where attacks come from outside.

Attacks may come from the outside, but they usually exploit code running on the target. IIRC, Apparmor is an implementation of what you seek - an easy way to limit what any given executable can do, in addition to what its process credentials can do.

mseepgood• 14 years ago

The linked text is from the 90s. Not exactly news. But Plan 9 was a big improvement over Unix. Unfortunately, good things are often ignored.

sp332• 14 years ago

A lot of the ideas in Plan 9 were ported to Linux. UTF-8, the /proc filesystem, and the idea of union filesystems. Also Plan 9 is arguably better because of what's not in it http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhatIsNotInPlanNine

4ad3• 14 years ago

/proc in Linux is nothing like /proc in Plan 9 though. Not only that the exported files are completely different conceptually and in their internal format, but on Linux I can't bind /proc from another box and do remote debugging with tools that know nothing about where the process runs.

Also Linux union mounts are clunky and not as useful as they are in Plan 9 because you can't have private namespaces if you are not root.

juan_juarez• 14 years ago

> Unfortunately, good things are often ignored

...which is why we're still using Unix.

specto• 14 years ago

One of my friends from University developed quite a bit for Plan 9. It's nostalgic to see this again.

f2f• 14 years ago

what university was that?

scarmig• 14 years ago

Let me know when they release a decent editor for it...

gchpaco2• 14 years ago

Sam and acme are both very good; they're weird, certainly, and very different from editors before and since but they are quite nice to work in. At least the equal of vi.

bediger4000• 14 years ago

I tried very seriously to use Sam instead of vi. My main criticism of it is that you have to be a pixel-perfect mouse acrobat to use it efficiently. I'm not pixel-perfect. I couldn't use the graphical parts of Sam, and that kind of negated all the rest of it. It did have some very interesting (to me, as a programmer) ways of doing things, including structural regular expressions.

jff8• 14 years ago

As gchpaco points out, both sam and acme are pretty usable. Acme makes a good enough programming editor that I use it for all my coding at work, while I keep a tarball of the original sam port on a server for those times when I have to use a system with a crappy version of vi and no admin privileges to install something better.

Oh, and you can run Vim on Plan 9 now. But it's kind of like visiting a foreign country and eating only McDonalds.

catenate5• 14 years ago

I used emacs for 11 years (93-04) and then acme-like editors (wily, plan9port acme, Acme SAC, Inferno acme) for 8 years (04-). Acme (especially guide files) made a distinct and pervasive change to my working style that emacs never did: sped me up, prevented me from forgetting, gave me help just when I need it, and reduced errors. Inferno's VM gave me a minimal unix environment whose executable and my scripts I can take via usb to clients' machines.

jff8• 14 years ago

Plan 9 pops up on the front page from time to time, and I see a lot of people expressing a lot of misconceptions about it. I know there are at least 2 or 3 other Plan 9 users on this site, and they help try to clear up some of the questions.

I've done quite a bit of poking around in Plan 9, but of course I don't know all of it. I've hacked in the kernel and worked on the 64-bit version as well, I've fooled with the compilers, and I've hacked on the window manager.

If anyone wants to ask questions about some aspect of Plan 9, I'll do my best to answer--and if I can't, I bet others can jump in and take over. It would be great to clear up some of the misconceptions, myths, and FUD!

zheng• 14 years ago

Ok, first question, why aren't we all using Plan 9 instead of a linux-based OS? Maybe more importantly, what could the next upstart kernel/OS do different than Plan 9 if it wants to be more successful?

mhurron• 14 years ago

> why aren't we all using Plan 9

Plan 9 wasn't always free.

Also, its GUI sucks. That's sort of important for end users.

4ad3• 14 years ago

I don't use Plan 9 much because it lacks a modern web browser, though I miss it dearly. I get some comfort on Linux and Mac OS X by using Russ Cox's excellent port of the Plan 9 tools to Unix[1]. To me, the most important Plan 9 tool is of course, the editor, Rob Pike's acme[2].

[1] http://swtch.com/plan9port/

[2] http://acme.cat-v.org/

ChuckMcM2• 14 years ago

Rob Pike and the other folks who developed Plan 9 worked at AT&T's Bell Laboratories. Nothing developed in a Bell Lab has ever been 'free' directly. Rather folks who have seen the research and been inspired by it have made changes to their free stuff which you use every day. There are influences from Plan 9 in Linux (the /proc file system for example which was influenced by the SunOS /proc filesystem which was influenced by Plan 9) but that is as far as it goes.

noselasd• 14 years ago

* It's not enough to be better to displace something ubiquitous (as unix like systems are today). You likely have to be orders of magnitude "better".

* Do not be hostile to your potential users. (The community that formed around Plan 9 as it went open source were quite hostile, there's no need for public beatings just because someone suggests to port X11 to Plan 9 even if it's a bad idea).

chimeracoder• 14 years ago

Plan9 doesn't replace Linux-the-kernel; it contains its own kernel, but there exists a port of the Plan9 utilities to the Linux kernel, replacing the GNU utilities (I'm not sure if this is complete).

For what it's worth, I use wmii on Linux, which uses the Plan9 model for configuration. It makes it super-scriptable and really easy to use.

jff8• 14 years ago

There have been some great answers from others in this thread already. Here's my take on things:

1. As others pointed out, Plan 9 was not initially free. If you go back and look at the very oldest messages from the 9fans mailing list (http://9fans.net/archive/, starts in 1993) you'll see lots of messages from people just trying to figure out how to get a license. At the same time, you could get Linux for free or very cheap.

2. Plan 9 is unfamiliar for new users. Face it: most people define "intuitive", "powerful", and "useful" as "that thing I'm already used to". Programming in Plan 9 is pretty similar to programming Unix, and the shell feels much the same, but you still need to learn new concepts and people don't like that.

3. Plan 9 is not Unix. People have, from the beginning, wanted to reshape Plan 9 in the image of the Unix/Linux environments they are familiar with, even when it doesn't make sense. They want Emacs or Vim, without having even tried Acme or sam. They want bash, ssh, X11, Firefox, and GNOME. Some of this software, like ssh, X11, and even Vim, have been ported or re-implemented because they're useful for interoperability with Unix or simply because somebody wanted it bad enough to do the port (Vim).

Those aren't the only reasons, but they're pretty substantial.

As for what the next kernel/OS should do, I'd say it's not enough to just exist and be good. You have to be used widely and have enough developers become familiar with it. If, for instance, some engineer at Facebook comes up with a nifty kernel and convinces them to start using it on all their servers, that kernel will probably be successful outside because there's suddenly a massive deployment of it.

Alternately, if you can get into a market that's less entrenched than the desktop, you may have a chance. We saw this to some extent with netbooks (some of the earliest ones shipped with Linux by default), we've definitely seen it with smartphones, and I have a feeling that we may see it in tablets. The problem with the desktop frequently comes down to: "Why can't it run Firefox and open my Word documents?"

Arelius2• 14 years ago

On that note what are some common misconceptions, myths and FUD surrounding Plan 9? I just get the impression that's it's a pretty amazing operating system that never took off... And considering you are a Plan 9 user I suspect you don't think poorly of it either.

jff8• 14 years ago

For instance, many people think Plan 9 development hasn't progressed since 2002, because that's the date of the 4th edition release on Wikipedia. The truth is that following the 4th edition, development switched to a rolling model in which patches are integrated and a new ISO is built daily.

Another is that there are no "decent" editors. For many people, the definition of "decent" means the executable must be named "vim". As I've said elsewhere, Plan 9 actually has a port of Vim, but if you skip our excellent native editors to use Vim, it's like visiting a foreign country and eating only McDonalds because the local cuisine is unfamiliar.

uvz• 14 years ago

Are you involved in nix?

jff8• 14 years ago

Yes.

codgercoder• 14 years ago

And the relationship to Inferno is...?

catenate5• 14 years ago

Inferno is kind of like Plan 9 running on a VM, with its own peculiarites like a really nice shell language. Having a VM, versus integrating with the host os like plan9port or cygwin, lets you use new features of the os like directory binding and the /env directory of shell variables. There's an os command to run programs on the underlying host, be it windows, windows with cygwin, or linux.

bbguitar• 14 years ago

Phew, Nostalgia indeed. I looked a Plan 9 back in late 90's when we were doing research for alternative OS's and ways of sharing stuff securely across a network without the cruft of DFS...

It had a lot of promise. What did become of it I wonder?

dleimbach• 14 years ago

Coraid ships ATA over ethernet storage based on Plan 9.

Bell Labs still uses plan 9 internally and develops it.

9front is a community fork of Plan 9 with a bunch of interesting changes.

There's a small but interested community of die-hard plan 9'ers that care about it, and the principles it set forth. A lot of it came from some very good, very sane development with people who often spend more time thinking than coding (a virtue we could all benefit from I think)

rjzzleep• 14 years ago

it's a shame the first paragraph is exactly what we're once again moving away from. all hail cloud computing

krevmax• 14 years ago

Reading through the archives of the Plan 9 mailing list at http://9fans.net/archive you can follow along with the progress of Linux and the web as they completely displaced and then decimated operating systems research, culminating in famous Pike's utah2000 paper. You see each casual user show up on the mailing list demanding "modern" features, arguing about the license, screeching about security "holes" they don't understand, before, ultimately, declaring that they are retreating to Linux (or, later, Mac OSX), where at least they can play Flash games and login to turbotax.com and watch Youtube videos.

obsidian123• 14 years ago

I sent an email to Bell Labs a couple of weeks ago suggesting that Plan 9 be released as "public domain" code. I even suggested that this could be a great way to honour the late Dennis Ritchie (who worked there, of course), getting the code "out there" for all and sundry to use, no strings attached. Unfortunately, I didn't get a reply, so I guess the email was deleted without being read. ( Probably thought "Arrrrgh! Another one of those P.D. zealots!" ) ( And they'd be right.... ;) )

I just think it is TRAGIC and a HUGE waste that such an elegant and beautifully-designed OS as Plan 9 continues to basically sit in a backwater, ignored and unused by almost everyone. And it is sitting there when I am convinced that a P.D. release would see its use rocket into the stratosphere.

What would be the harm in releasing it to the public domain? It is already open-source so it's not as if any revenue would be lost. It would be a good P.R. opportunity for Bell Labs too (and as I say, a nice way of honouring D.R.

Let's face it - if Unix itself had been released as P.D. in the first place, then there would have been no need to reinvent it (as with the BSDs and Linux). It could simply have been continually improved upon. That's where I'm "coming from", as it were.

SQLite shows what is possible with P.D. code. It is apparently used in darned-near every smartphone out there, so it's not as if companies won't use P.D. code if it is good enough. If it meets their needs, they will go for it.

4ad3• 14 years ago

The LPL which Plan 9 now uses is basically equivalent to the BSD licence. It's non-viral.

Plan 9 from Bell Labs (1995)

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