Where are all the self-directed learners?

https://saigaddam.medium.com/where-are-all-the-self-directed-learners-ccfb2421e52c

by ChaitanyaSai • 1 year ago

71 107 1 year ago

saigaddam.medium.com

I don't know about India, but having spent many years on university, first as a student, later as a research director and representative at all levels from the department to the university board, and the later as I watched my own children move through the process, I have seen dramatic changes in higher ed turning university ever more into highschool.

In the 'old' days it was basically up yo you. Assignments during the academic year were few and far between. Each course resulted in an exam at the end of the year. How you passed that was up to you.

This meant you were modtly free gor 90% of your time to attend classes or not. You could use the university as a knowledge buffet attending interesting lectures outside of your own field of study, get straight into the specialization topics that were the real reason you were attracted to field in the first place (AI in my case which was a very niche subject in those days) instead of just slogging through the generalist foundation courses (80% math in those days, physics, economics and some CS).

These days students are bombarded with assignmments all year, with exams pepered throughout. This inflicts nearly full class attendance requirement and constant deadline pressures. Yes, it makes it so credit can be acquired piecemeal instead of pass/failing in one massive shot, but it reduces autonomy to near 0.

HPsquared• 1 year ago

For me, personally, I don't think I'd have coped with the constant stress of all these obligations and assignments throughout the year. Much better to have a couple of weeks intense focus at the end of the year, I can manage that.

dijit• 1 year ago

Yeah, I’m also like that.

Infinitely curious and motivated when there’s a vague and nebulous problem in the future, as long as I can sorta see my improvements along the way.

But assignments, idk, I don’t put as much of my curiosity on it. I was terrible at coursework and wonderful at tests largely for this reason.

mattjhall• 1 year ago

In the 'old' days it was basically up yo you. Assignments during the academic year were few and far between. Each course resulted in an exam at the end of the year. How you passed that was up to you.

Interestingly I think is exactly what the article is arguing against and is saying India is too much like.

You could use the university as a knowledge buffet attending interesting lectures outside of your own field of study, get straight into the specialization topics that were the real reason you were attracted to field in the first place (AI in my case which was a very niche subject in those days) instead of just slogging through the generalist foundation courses (80% math in those days, physics, economics and some CS).

This sounds great for making academics, but terrible for educating a work force. Sadly, university is now the latter due to it being seen as a way to get ahead. One of the worst things to happen UK in my lifetime is tuition fees.

collingreen• 1 year ago

It is a great way for a few to excel and a terrible way to build a brand around the value of your diploma.

nonrandomstring2• 1 year ago

I wholeheartedly agree with you. 30+ years in academia, I've taught all around the northern hemisphere at all kinds of universities and have written dozens of articles in Times Higher documenting the regress of higher learning institutions into kindergartens.

It's not just that universities are no longer fit places for teaching, learning and research, but something bigger is at play, which I see as "the death of adulthood". HE institutions are leaders in this 'infantilisation' which is toxic to self-development and personal responsibility.

A big factor is the aggressive intrusion of US BigTech; Turnitin, Grammarly etc... violating "proctoring" software, just a pathological and pointless quest systematise and lock-down absolutely everything.

Another reason universities have been morally upended is putting vanity and appearance before substance. They care more about how they are seen, in league tables and in social media, than they care about their students. Self-deluding PR has made universities worse than some of the most cringe corporations.

As a recovered "academic" prof (they are not really academies any longer but holding-pens and "degree vendors") I absolutely would not want my own kids to waste their time or money there.

miningape• 1 year ago

I had a very permissive highschool experience (nonetheless academically rigorous) so it was a complete system shock to be dropped into a university system which infantilised every step and process - it was like being back in middle school except I expected autonomy and to be held accountable for my (lack of) actions / knowledge / learning.

And don't get me started on the administration which felt its need to weasel into every crevice, only to add unnecessary complexity and difficulty to otherwise simple processes (need to swap exam days with another student? - well, be prepared to start discussing it with admin months in advance with prepared letters from all stakeholders). Seemingly university administration only exists for the sake of having a university administration - and seems to be populated with the utter dregs of what that university put out that the market wouldn't hire (in other words: admin is where you go when you're too far up your own ass for a real business to get value from you).

As a result, after a while most classmates didn't or couldn't think for themselves about anything. It was overall an extremely frustrating experience and I couldn't get out fast enough. I actually landed in hot water because I skipped too many classes (in my last year I only went to uni about 5 times, each for 1 of my 5 exams) but my grades were so much higher than the rest of the cohort they decided to allow me to graduate so as to improve their overall GPA for the class.

nkrisc• 1 year ago

The infantilisation starts well before higher education. My dorms were filled with people who couldn’t even take care of themselves at a basic level, such as doing laundry and keeping their room even moderately clean. Rich 18 year olds living in their own filth like pigs in a sty.

gsf_emergency_2• 1 year ago

Tangentially, this means there's an entirely non-niche market for AI-based uh ... nonautonomous aids.

With closed-book pen & paper exams (e.g. in India), not so much.

ghaff5• 1 year ago

That wasn't at all my experience in either undergrad or grad school in the US. There were midterms and finals but also various problem sets and projects, whether individual or group.

xeckr• 1 year ago

I'm here. I'm sure a good chunk of the user base here are also self-taught in matters related to technology and other pursuits.

As for AI, it basically allows self-learning on steroids.

fmxsh2• 1 year ago

Glad to see this pointed out. I see a lot of complaints that AI "does it all for you," but my experience is that AI removes the time and effort barrier between intention and the acquisition of knowledge, creating high pressure for those interested in exploring a system. Also, it allows for quick learning through the practical application of theories toward a goal of interest. Typically, the best learning, as argued in pedagogy, is situated in one's sense of the knowledge's relevance in the tangible world.

technothrasher• 1 year ago

What this person is advocating for sounds exactly like what Maria Montessori was trying to accomplish. Though what I see a lot in Montessori schools these days is parents wanting to get their children into one because they see it as prestigious, and then pushing the school hard to conform back to a more mainstream educational path.

fancyfredbot• 1 year ago

Are there no self directed learners? Or did none of them apply for your job?

I'm not in a position to answer this but I would expect that self directed learners would demand a premium salary and look for a prestigious role.

I would also expect them to have self learned different skills to the ones you might be looking for...

486sx33• 1 year ago

Perhaps they’ve learned not to waste their time and energy on initial applications.

Vivtek• 1 year ago

Lord knows there are ample opportunities to learn this lesson in the industry today.

tomjuggler• 1 year ago

This is exactly the type of article that appeals most to me. Because it confirms my choice to drop out of college and learn on my own.

I have the utmost respect, though, for those with degrees who actually manage to use the knowledge they gain to achieve something. I just don't think it's the right path for everyone.

I'm not from India but will be taking the test just for fun

zwnow3• 1 year ago

European university would kill me. I am pretty sure I have undiagnosed adhd and universities aren't made for people like me. Having to learn things i dont care about is practically impossible for me. Its not like I don't want to, its because im physically not able to remember these things. This is also why I didnt succeed my drivers license or cant read books I dont consider interesting. So self learning is the only way for people like me.

bryanhogan• 1 year ago

I've also believed that university is not for me until I found a study that I actually enjoy and which is quite modern.

Like my study, based in Germany, combines coding, design and entrepreneurship. With many opportunities for projects that students can initiate themselves, to work on what they value and enjoy. Something that they might make into a real-world product/service. And classes were very hand-ons, focused on actually doing the thing and not just theory. Also helped that there were almost zero typical exams and each class was two weeks long, two weeks of just that class.

So what I want to say is that there are opportunities beyond the concept of university of a 100 years ago. Concepts that might align more with your values and needs.

philipwhiuk2• 1 year ago

I'm not from India but will be taking the test just for fun

Feel free to do their work for them for free.

stevage2• 1 year ago

This author sees a problem (lack of quality applicants) then assumes, with no obvious evidence, a cause (incorrect paradigm in education system failing to create young people able and willing to teach themselves professional skills) and prescribes a solution.

Seems there could be all kinds of possible causes here.

(To be fair, of course, I don't know anything about the Indian education system and the author obviously does.)

ChaitanyaSai10• 1 year ago

OP here. Added this conxtext: OK, technically the absence of genuinely interested applicants is NOT an indication of drive. However, please note the context: It’s a brutal job market at the entry level in India at the moment. That’s why we are flooded with applications. Candidates either know this, or quickly figure this out. And yet, that does not translate into many giving their application serious and creative thought? It is that lack of agency that baffles me and makes me search for answers.

klabb32• 1 year ago

You’re assuming that the reason they don’t fill in your optional questions are lack of agency, when it is more likely they’d rather spend that time applying to more jobs. The early stages of the job market is called screening and is a wide net with low success rate. The incentives, especially with juniors, are to play a numbers game. If you are looking for culture fit, say that. And then have one such interview later in the process in a personal context.

According to another commenter you’re asking for free labor (familiarizing themselves with your code and writing a design doc). If this is true, discussions of personal agency and creativity might be distracting from the real issues.

stevage2• 1 year ago

That's useful context, thanks.

shermantanktop• 1 year ago

I looked at the form. I don’t know the Indian job market and the typical process, but I wouldn’t apply to that place. Invasive questions, woo woo culture vibes, and then a big multihour homework assignment with a warning about rejection. Looks like a waste of time to apply, at least for anyone who has other options. Maybe that’s where those self directed learners are.

MattGaiser4• 1 year ago

I agree. Assuming that nobody answered the questions and did the assignment because they aren't independent thinkers is arrogant. Nobody answered the questions and did the assignment as they make this job far more expensive to apply to than other jobs, with no clear higher expected value.

jofzar• 1 year ago

Completely agree, so many yucky questions

leosanchez• 1 year ago

Is this an ad ?

belter• 1 year ago

That is what I mentioned and got my post flagged...They are also trying to get their candidates to design their product for them: https://www.aiche.org/sites/default/files/styles/chenected_l...

fmxsh2• 1 year ago

Without any deeper exploration, the article comes to an abrupt end, with a link suggesting helping a git project; a git project with the expressed desire of having you participate.

neilv2• 1 year ago

A skim of the overall post has me sympathetic, but I almost closed the browser tab with the opening:

Fewer than 100 filled a form with open-ended questions. About 15 went on to complete a reasonably simple real-world challenge. We are a nation with the cheapest internet and a billion internet users. Where are all the self-directed learners? The eclectic ekalavyas?

Apparently not jumping through corporate drone hoops, for a chance to talk with your company.

And then to make it worse, our exam system is fundamentally broken. It’s like forcing Serena Williams and Magnus Carlsen (and Gukesh) to compete in 400m hurdles to figure out if they are fit for their respective sports.

Exactly.

TZubiri• 1 year ago

The actual job posting just says "software engineering", full stack, ai, "to build a tool that answers all the questions".

I can only see undergrads falling for this.

Maybe if you narrow down the job requirements (and the company mission) you would get less than 2.5k applicants and you wouldn't need to throw challenges to filter out people who value their time.

cmcaleer• 1 year ago

filter out people who value their time

Those who can, do. Those who can’t, will spend half a day on your application for free.

ChaitanyaSai10• 1 year ago

OP here. We are fully aware of how this might seem like a lot of work for job seekers. But the practical reality is the Indian job market has a massive supply of talent. As with any, it is of variable quality. We are very clear we do not want to use the usual credentialing and leetcode interviews as filters. They suck. We want to work with people who are genuinely interested in the domain we work in (education) and this has worked reasonably well for us.

I would love to find a better way to filter through 2500 applications. What markers do we rely on. AI has made the usual filters even more irrelevant.

llamaimperative• 1 year ago

Why can’t you proactively source your own candidates instead of thinking they’ll come to you? Especially for self-directed learners/more independent people?

roenxi• 1 year ago

You've probably misread the situation. As far as I've seen there are two types of job seeker:

- People who will be hired immediately on applying because they're amazing. These people generally don't apply through the usual pipeline, they contact people they know and offer to work with them. Sometimes they get headhunted.

- Everyone else. To these people it is a numbers game where they have maybe a 5% [0] chance of being hired on applying and so need to apply to maybe 20+ jobs. Any challenge is going to be a massive pain for them because it represents a big time investment for little marginal gain.

[0] In the article there are 15 applicants, assuming you only hire 1 there is a 5% chance right there even if they are all obviously qualified and acceptable hires. And then there are a lot of "fake" jobs where the company is not actually going to end up hiring anyone this month.

throwaway346434• 1 year ago

facepalm here's how you do this.

- Ask people to nominate someone else they know as a good resource. - Reach out to the multiply independently recommended person - Ask they who they would recommend and why.

0xEF• 1 year ago

The job seekers time is more valuable than that of your company. I want you to drill in your skull, tonight, tattoo it on the back of your hand, perhaps.

Time is the one resource that none of us can get more of. It is not saved, like money, to be spent on some future endeavors. It does not accumulate interest. It does not grow with market fluctuations. We get what we get and nothing more or less.

When an applicant has already taken the time to develop a resume that illustrates their skills along with a portfolio/repo that proves said skills, you callously dismiss that work and past experience by making them jump through hoops in your application process. This starts the conversation by telling the applicant you do not value their efforts thus far, whether you actually do or not. It's not a good foot to lead with.

Filtering through thousands of applicants is tough, no doubt, but if your company is successful enough to be receiving that many applicants for a position, then it is successful enough to hire and develop a robust HR or recruiting department that can vet these applications with actual human contact. Yes, this costs money, but if you want to make the omelette, you need to crack some eggs. If you cannot afford to take that path, then you cannot afford to grow, making it tougher to find quality applicants.

postsantum• 1 year ago

You are filtering for the most desperate candidates, not the most suitable ones

A candidate who had applied for jobs before knows that his chances for getting a reply are in the low single digits. Now you are offering them to waste some time for probably the same. Only the most desperate will go through with this

neilv2• 1 year ago

Is one of your messages that industry hiring is broken, but if the right candidates will trust your company enough to invest in its hiring process, then that trust will be rewarded?

I don't know about India, but, in the US, companies have a credibility problem. I would guess that most of the job-seekers don't trust companies, and think the hiring processes are incompetent.

And we see numerous examples of companies saying they're doing something different with hiring, but these have also generally not left favorable impressions.

US people play along, to varying degrees, with hiring processes they don't trust or respect. But I suspect that their feelings are consequently mercenary and transactional.

noosphr2• 1 year ago

How about you ask for a personal repo with open source projects that solve real problems?

Instead of inventing a bullshit pre-job you can make the world a better place. You also get a strong signal on who can deal with real world problems when they take more than 4 hours to solve.

robofanatic• 1 year ago

About 15 went on to complete a reasonably simple real-world challenge

I am not sure what you mean by better way of filtering. You already got only 15 candidates from 2500 applicants. Next step is to just check what they have done in the challenge which will further reduce the number of candidates. The problem would be if lets say 1000 applicants submit the challenge.

lolinder• 1 year ago

This is based on the US market and culture and may be off base in India, but for me starting with a form with open-ended questions is a huge red flag of being a massive waste of my time. When I left school I swore off of essay questions, and any company that is going to force me to answer essay questions to even get a chance to talk to a human is not one that appeals to me.

If the culture is at all similar there, then that first step in your process is instantly filtering for people who are extremely compliant with arbitrary processes and bureaucracy. Which in turn will be very likely to instantly filter out the self-directed learners you claim to want.

satisfice• 1 year ago

Randomly choose ten and hire one of those. Hire them on a temporary basis at first. Coach them.

Stop trying to find the perfect person and find instead someone willing to work and improve themselves. Grow the staff you need.

BTW, I wrote a book on self-directed learning, and at one time was the youngest manager in Apple R&D, when I was 20.

linsomniac5• 1 year ago

Apparently not jumping through corporate drone hoops, for a chance to talk with your company.

Ok, you're right that the article is contradicting itself. However, the article is correct as well, our last hiring round had the challenge: "tell us your favorite color in your application". Out of hundreds of applications, we had maybe 5 who said anything about a color.

Job seekers are weaponizing applications, and are lamenting that the application process is being weaponized against them. It sucks on both sides of the table.

pluto_modadic2• 1 year ago

Other way around. Job seekers are attempting to survive, job boards aren't doing enough to make matchmaking easier.

MattGaiser4• 1 year ago

Self directed learner is not the same as someone willing to spend several hours on a lottery ticket for an interview. The cost of applying for this role is 100x higher than most other jobs.

So the independent thinkers did some thinking and realized that their expected return from this process wasn't that high.

zwnow3• 1 year ago

Also corps fail to realize that most people arent interested in the actual corp work but rather niche stuff that isn't as marketable. Why would people go out of their way to apply to some corp job?

ChaitanyaSai10• 1 year ago

OP here. What we hope the independent thinks will realize is that when the cost of applying drops down to a single automatable click, their cursory click application is lost in a sea of spam. This allows them to stand apart. Recruiting and dating have a tone of parallels. They are time-intensive for both parties. And that time spent does not always result in a positive outcome. And yet that high time-cost (for both sides) is what makes the relationship meaningful.

Here's a question. In a difficult job market with a deluge of candidates, how should a candidate try and stand apart? And we have to answer that for the new AI age where output for many tests can generated very cheaply.

MattGaiser4• 1 year ago

Do the type of project you specified, but unprompted for companies that did not request it, meaning a higher delta between you and other candidates. Because you are defining the project rather than them, you can also heavily recycle it within the same industry, so it still stands out as impressive but also scales reasonably well. You can also do it with ChatGPT quickly and it is not noticeably messy AI work because there is nothing to compare your work with. Your work stands out to for its quality, but for existing.

I did this back when I was an intern for an innovation role and got it.

Did a bit of consulting for others on this years ago as well. A remnant of that time:

https://simbi.com/matthew-gaiser/pre-interview-project-help

The project idea is fine, but if everyone does the project, you are still stuck competing against many others on the same field.

When I do this kind of project, I stuff it in with my resume as a single file.

On the employer side, I am not sure what you could do that doesn't deter a lot of people.

Chaosvex2• 1 year ago

Had a look at the questions they ask applicants to answer in the hopes of even receiving a response and I'm not terribly surprised that people might not want to fill it out. Aside from the invasive questions...

Here's a fun question: Someone who eats meat often has an allergic reaction. What are some likely reasons for this?
Please take 2 minutes to read our work culture and principles and answer this question: What do you think is the most intriguing aspect, and why?

Really?

ChaitanyaSai10• 1 year ago

OP here. It's a question to easily detect for people who use chatgpt to fill the form. Anyone who enters alpha-gal syndrome has probably used chatgpt. That isn't an automatic reject though (very generic template answers are). Guess we'll have to find another question soon now this is out here for LLMs to slurp up!

The reason for this questionnaire is culture fit. It's also the very practical matter of weeding through 2500 applications when AI has made all straightforward code-based questions very pointless

Chaosvex2• 1 year ago

It's not about a single question, it's about all of them that don't do anything to further the process. They're a waste of time for people who have options - in other words, the people you want to hire.

If a company wants me to jump through hoops just for the shot at an interview, I'm not doing it because I can go afford to go elsewhere. I'm sure I'm far from alone in that.

MattGaiser4• 1 year ago

Anyone who has done a Google search of "meat allergy" will also put alpha-gal syndrome. For a question like this to work, there should be a much wider variety of possible answers.

mystraline2• 1 year ago

Simply put, you can complain about "nobody wants to apply to my jobs".

But you ask terribly invasive questions, questions that are just frankly garbage, and your AI landmine questions. And this is 100x worse applications than other jobs.

And you admit that if you happen to know about alpha-gal (tick related disease prevalent in the USA) then you probably are using an LLM?! Seriously?

If this is how you treat candidates, how do you treat employees? How many garbage 'tests' do you put them through?

tw19837• 1 year ago

The first Google result for "Someone who eats meat often has an allergic reaction" is alpha-gal syndrome.

There are two kinds of people who would know this without searching: Medical professionals or people who obsessively follow every health scare in the press, often the yellow press.

This question is useless, unless you want to hear "I googled the question" or "I don't know". Anyway, most people don't care what you want to hear, hence the low application numbers.

linsomniac5• 1 year ago

Here's a fun question: Someone who eats meat often has an allergic reaction. What are some likely reasons for this?

My answer would be: "You're asking the wrong Linux SysAdmin." I've taken to this answer whenever I get asked a question that's way outside my area of expertise.

crazygringo3• 1 year ago

Seriously.

That isn't even some kind of annoying brain teaser estimation problem.

It's literally a question for doctors.

It would make me think you're so bad at your interview process you lazily copied and pasted questions from another source without even looking at them.

Either that, or a crazy person wrote the questions.

In either case, gigantic red warning flags about this company.

jnwatson2• 1 year ago

In the grand tradition of sysadmins having to diagnose everything from a misconfigured router to a plugged toilet, I think diagnosing medical problems might as well be in the skill set.

First, I'd check the cooking oil and seasonings for common allergens. Then, if they had visited the US recently, check for Alpha-gal Syndrome.

DavidPiper2• 1 year ago

I'm still thinking about it, but two things stand out to me:

1. Self-directed learning requires intrinsic motivation. Seems obvious, but I think it's really easy to lose that once you have extrinsic motivation (like a salary, or kids, making rent, a mortgage, etc). In these cases it may still be there, but redirected into things like hobbies, parenting, health, financial management, etc.

2. Self-directed learning is far more likely in a system where there is no (accessible) "existing pipeline" for externally-directed learning.

This was kind of how it was for us 20 years ago - first year university was the natural age you'd be exposed to programming, unless you did it yourself earlier than that because you wanted to, and if you did, there was no easy playbook, you had to RTFM, if there was one, experiment, fail, etc. And "computing" was niche enough that librarians or other non-academic figures couldn't really even tell you what you might want to consider.

These days, coding schools accessible to anyone are not even a dime a dozen, they're free. While I think this is a Good Thing™, it also falls into the trap described by the author where you're no longer creating an environment where students have to learn for themselves, you're creating an environment where they're taught.

Again, I think more teaching is a Good Thing™, but the kind of problem solving the author seems to be describing is not actually related to any of the learned content, whatever that content may be.

It's not about learning how to consume a resource, it's learning how to be resourceful.

trod12344• 1 year ago

Have you considered that the reason there are fewer self-directed learners today is because the framework for basic rational thought and critical thinking was never taught, and as a result of the friction in such cases needed to "play" and by extension "learn" anything, the friction exceeds the benefit they can possibly receive so they get stuck and don't do it.

This presents a problem both in terms of the learner being tested, and the test maker (who may have formed the questions irrationally and non-deterministically in the first place).

The Greeks knew how to do this best. Information transfer today makes no differentiation between true and false information. Its completely by rote.

DavidPiper2• 1 year ago

There was a longer version of my comment that included a disagreement with the idea that there are less self-directed learners today, but that is probably more a function of my local societal bubble than anything else.

I do agree with your points. The criticisms of modern education systems (Sir Ken Robinson and Seymour Papert come to mind, for different reasons) for their rote straight-jacket approaches seem to be coming home to roost at scale.

the framework for basic rational thought and critical thinking was never taught

Something I'm thinking about (rhetorically) is: can this actually be taught? Or can we only provide environments of play and exploration that allow kids to learn these skills for themselves. Directly "teaching" this seems to fall into a recursive (or maybe Godel-like) situation: teach "how to think" is just another rote lesson.

austin-cheney• 1 year ago

In all fairness, as a JavaScript developer, self directed learning is negatively rewarded by the hiring process. Instead the primary target is a laundry list of tool nonsense that mostly just contributes to tech debt. That is why I won’t write JavaScript professionally anymore.

csomar• 1 year ago

So for the people who didn't read the article, here are some of the form questions

What is your age?
HIRING CHALLENGE: Find our recenter browser plugin (it is open-source). Understand what it is for and suggest an interesting and personally useful feature you can add to it. Go through the code and share a brief note on how you would go about building this feature, and why. Note: Send us an email once you have thought this through, have put together the design doc, and are ready to start coding.
We don't measure how many hours you are at the office. What matters is whether the work gets done. We are reasonably flexible with hours. Currently, we operate around a 10:00 AM - 6:00 PM work cycle. Some things you work on will require more hours and effort, sometimes intense, and some won't. There may be a fair bit to pick up in your early days. You will likely need to put in more time, and that will pay dividends later.

philipwhiuk2• 1 year ago

Also:

The "everyone will lie question"

Do you understand that being authentic and true to yourself in your answers here will help you in the long run?

the "embrace the suck" question

What do the words gratitude and humility mean to you?

the one stolen from 'Google interviews':

Here's a fun question: Someone who eats meat often has an allergic reaction. What are some likely reasons for this?

and obviously

What do you think your annual salary should be?

So they can lowball you.

This is about the most toxic interview process I've seen. No wonder good candidates go elsewhere.

jmholla• 1 year ago

We don't measure how many hours you are at the office. What matters is whether the work gets done. We are reasonably flexible with hours. Currently, we operate around a 10:00 AM - 6:00 PM work cycle. Some things you work on will require more hours and effort, sometimes intense, and some won't. There may be a fair bit to pick up in your early days. You will likely need to put in more time, and that will pay dividends later.

Translated: "We don't count how many hours you work beyond this pretty standard bucket of hours that you better be here for."

tonyedgecombe• 1 year ago

I once had an employment contract that said I would work from 9am to 5:30 pm and any other hours the company deems necessary.

steele• 1 year ago

Filtered out by Occidental culture and language specific word puzzles concealing discrete math and linear algebra

_def• 1 year ago

I'll never understand how employers can expect to rent my passion. If you want dedicated people, you have to start with dedication yourself.

crazygringo3• 1 year ago

We received over 2,500 job applications. Fewer than 100 filled a form with open-ended questions. About 15 went on to complete a reasonably simple real-world challenge... Where are all the self-directed learners?

How does the author jump from low participation rates to a lack of "self-directed learners"?

This is a total non-sequitur. You're running an interview process, not a MOOC or something.

The more I read the post, the more it looks like an ad for trying to get employees via HN.

ChaitanyaSai10• 1 year ago

OP here. Yes, that is a jump, which I bridged now.

OK, technically the absence of genuinely interested applicants is NOT an indication of drive. However, please note the context: It’s a brutal job market at the entry level in India at the moment. That’s why we are flooded with applications. Candidates either know this, or quickly figure this out. And yet, that does not translate into many giving their application serious and creative thought?

It is a problem they have never been asked to solve for: How to stand apart and demonstrate ability without relying on the usual credentials. It needs creativity and independent thinking and some agency. It is the lack of these that baffles me and makes me search for answers.

Learning is not just the know-how and knowledge you acquire for doing a job. It is everything else you need to navigate life and also, in this narrow sense, the skills you need to apply for a job, make your case that you are the right candidate, or at least that demonstrate that your candidature deserves attention. It is a very learnable skill. Especially now. And given the market, a skill anyone with initiative should try to acquire.

crazygringo3• 1 year ago

And yet, that does not translate into many giving their application serious and creative thought?
It is the lack of these that baffles me and makes me search for answers.

I think you are making a fundamental mistake about how things work in a bad job market.

In a good job market, let's suppose you have a 10% chance of getting a job you apply for, and you're applying to 10 in this month. Then it's genuinely worth it to spend time and effort chasing those jobs, with "creativity" and "agency" as you put it. Because it's not a numbers game, you're genuinely looking for a good fit.

In a bad job market, let's suppose you have a 0.1% chance of getting a job you apply for. Therefore you apply to 1,000 this month, literally 30 a day. It is not rational to put "creativity" and "agency" into those applications, because it is almost guaranteed to be wasted effort. Because the bad job market makes it a numbers game.

You are making a judgment on people's character, when the reality is a simple question of economics or game theory. I hope you can gain some perspective and start seeing these job applicants with positive empathy rather than negative judgment. It's not about them not being self-directed -- it's about you having unrealistic expectations.

I see that you've gotten a lot of responses like this in the comments. I hope you're able to take it as an opportunity for learning and self-reflection -- there's some valuable stuff here for you, despite your post being flagged.

trod12344• 1 year ago

There can potentially be a number of issues here.

In cellular networks, you have this very real effect called RNA interference. Its where an area is flooded with a fragment that binds to targets blocking them from binding with specific receptor sites. This is being done at scale through ghost jobs, and fake postings. A candidate has a finite set amount of time they can spend. If you aren't getting applications, either you have a very bad reputation, or they are being blocked before you ever see them.

Independent action and learning depends upon rational frameworks of mind. The prussian model of schooling has always been about eliminating this in exchange for a unthinking, loyal worker.

joduplessis• 1 year ago

Where are all the self-directed learners?

Doing something other than filling out some esoteric BS form. These are possibly the worst kind of job applications in my opinion (coming from someone who has filled some out in my time).

yahoozoo• 1 year ago

Has India ever had independent thinkers?

mk_chan• 1 year ago

The article is nice and the intention seems to be good, but it’s not backed up by the fundamentals. The salary range posted in the job listing is low enough that anyone who would answer the questions to my satisfaction (personal opinion) and is an autodidact would instantly ignore the entire listing or leave a year after joining once they realized how valuable the skill they have actually is. Having conducted 50+ interviews with Indian and international candidates, including those from FAANG, you can’t just discount these skills by 50-75% of their value and then post an article asking where they are in good faith.

ChaitanyaSai10• 1 year ago

OP here. The Indian context is important. We have a massive talent pool (many outside the US just don't know how many engineers graduate yearly (1.5 million!) in India ) and we are not competing with FAANG / well-funded startups. There is a lot of raw talent out there. We know because we have been hiring for a long time. Working with us has been the springboard to well paying jobs and senior roles. What we cannot compete on at the moment (salaries) we make up for with growth opportunities and learning (and this isn't us selling this; we have the evidence to back it up). What we might have is a problem where the raw talent doesn't even know how to make a case for themselves. What really surprises me is how the numbers havent increased in this day and age where one can realize that the median college (in India) is awful in educating them and they can find what they need online.

pluto_modadic2• 1 year ago

I think... The problem definitely isn't your applicants. It's your job posting being out of touch, full stop.

karmakaze• 1 year ago

This is an example of Goodhart's Law, where qualification of entrance (whether to a college or company) is measured, and thus becomes the target for applicants rather than being good at what is being assessed.

I for one never really cared about grades and would just sit in class and try to understand what it was really about so that it made sense and could be internalized. I don't think this works anymore where the bar is set artificial high using proxy checks (e.g. leetcode) or having to get past recruiting screeners who have no idea what the job entails.

ChaitanyaSai10• 1 year ago

Absolutely. Wonderful book that talks about this in a different context https://www.amazon.com/Why-Greatness-Cannot-Planned-Objectiv...

Also wrote about it here https://blog.comini.in/p/what-should-replace-grades

trod12344• 1 year ago

Yes there is a growing problem, but the author as many others before him neglect the type of problem being faced.

It assumes the problem is that we don't know how to teach better, and that's just wrong. We do know how to teach people, we've done it in the past.

The actual problem is one of subversion of the processes involved. There is no accountability for teachers that harm their students in a specific way (i.e. teaching maladaptive behaviors through torture).

The prussian model of education has from the beginning been about creating loyal unthinking workers. That history has never changed, and the groups involved support that history through the shadows.

Its subtle, but its been happening for almost a hundred years to eliminate rational thought. Torture promotes this outcome, as the experts from the 50s can attest in their written works (Lifton/Meerloo).

There is a classical approach to education where you are taught to be independent and think. It came from the greeks, and stood the test of time. If you see a problem with the existing system that is cascading, you need to go back to what worked. A known working state. Its just that simple.

Doing so would ruffle a lot of feathers because there are a lot of malevolent people out there in the world today, and part of evil and malevolence is a wilful blindness to the consequences of their actions.

paradox242• 1 year ago

I can say this is definitely something I have noticed in many coworkers from India, but it's also not exactly uncommon in those who grew up and went to school in America. It really blows my mind how many people become literally paralyzed on step zero if they don't already have step by step instructions to complete the task. Even the suggestion of a simple Google search is received as if it were a revelation from on high.

Where are all the self-directed learners?

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