Whats up with programmers avoiding programming?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4248343

by b4c0n • 14 years ago

20 21 14 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

Since when did this new wave of "I am a programmer and all I want is time away from my computer and to not have to worry about programming and software" come about?

All I seem to see on threads asking for advice on becoming a better programmer is "get out and get some exercise", and most discussions focused around "I am a programmer and the most important thing to me is spending time away from my computer".

I don't get it - I just don't get it. Is there anyone out there like me that would stay indoors tinkering with hardware and software over spending time rock-climbing or vacationing any day of the week?

I grew up in Australia, on the beach in fact. I had a great job as a senior developer and I spent almost every weekend in the office playing with new and better ways to improve our software. I found that to be more rewarding than any kind of outdoors activity, even considering a great beachside location.

Where did people's unwavering passion for their craft go, did programmers suddenly discover something that I am missing? Is it "uncool" to be a hardcore programmer now?

saiko-chriskun• 14 years ago

Yep, you're spot on. You just don't get it.

chipsy• 14 years ago

Most people, most of the time, are not working on projects so fun and engaging that they enter crunch of their own accord.

If you are, go for it. But the rest of the time you have to assume your programming will be dealing with "boring problems" that don't allow for an exciting solution - a balanced lifestyle helps make those situations acceptable.

b4c0n6• 14 years ago

Were I to be in that situation, I would be using my spare time to engage in programming something fun and rewarding for myself - not spending my time further away from programming, loathing and dreading the moment I return to a keyboard. That is what I don't get... surely spending time doing things to avoid solving "boring problems" would further compound the issue of wanting to avoid programming?

spacemanaki2• 14 years ago

Walking away from the computer and going outside can be incredibly beneficial to solving problems you're stuck on. You keep thinking about the problem even while you're away, and the problem drifts in and out of your consciousness as you're off doing non-programming things, but somehow this "light" thinking ends up stirring some extra understanding or breakthrough. Many other people report similar experiences, see Rich Hickey's Hammock Driven Development talk for a related but slightly different take.

Other than that, I don't think there is any new wave, unless I'm out of touch and you're not. Most of my peers and colleagues hack through the weekends, on their own work, or something fun and new, like learning a new language, a new app platform, or something hardware related like 3d printing and Arduino tinkering.

b4c0n6• 14 years ago

I agree 100% about spending some time in a different headspace than one that is getting you nowhere - but to point just fingers at the 2 posts today that tipped me over the edge, this is the mentality I am referencing:

http://www.fullcontact.com/2012/07/10/paid-paid-vacation/ http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4215912 (the comment which begins "If you're 17 and already a decent programmer, my best advice to you is to have some fun and exercise")

It just seems strange to me someone asking "how do I become a better programmer" is "Exercise". This mentality of "Be a better programmer by being less of a programmer" confuses me.

spacemanaki2• 14 years ago

I think you're just overreacting. The first link is really more about labor issues, and one employer being very generous to their employees. The second was about a 17 year-old. That's not general advice for all programmers. Honestly, my advice to someone 17yo who knows how to program would be similar! That's just age talking to youth, and sure maybe some of the commenters went off topic but I can't blame them. I would tell any 17yo to broaden their horizons too, because getting well rounded at 17 is going to be more valuable in the long run. The advice in that thread wasn't all "go exercise", that appears to be only one comment. Certainly not a "new wave".

kiplinger• 14 years ago

Hank Scorpio: Uh, hi, Homer. What can I do for you? Homer: Sir, I need to know where I can get some business hammocks. Hank Scorpio: Hammocks? My goodness, what an idea. Why didn't I think of that? Hammocks! Homer, there's four places. There's the Hammock Hut, that's on third. Homer: Uh-huh. Hank Scorpio: There's Hammocks-R-Us, that's on third too. You got Put-Your-Butt-There. Homer: Mm-Hmm. Hank Scorpio: That's on third. Swing Low, Sweet Chariot... Matter of fact, they're all in the same complex; it's the hammock complex on third. Homer: Oh, the hammock district! Hank Scorpio: That's right.

jconley• 14 years ago

I purposely avoid programming and electronic devices for the sake of perspective and brainstorming.

When I'm writing code I'm boxed into production mode. Get. Shit. Done. But, particularly when the work I am doing is self-directed and self-prioritized (aka my own startup or side project), I need hours away to really think about the big picture.

Activities that are away from the bombardment of input of my computer/phone work best for me. Let my mind wander. Think about different ways to approach problems. I often find there are higher priority things to do than whatever I thought I was going to code up next.

b4c0n6• 14 years ago

Hmm... This makes sense, but you are keeping 2 things on the top of your mind. You are either programming, or planning how best to approach the next step for your project/business plan. I can understand how time away from the keyboard would help with your situation.

The main attitude that confuses me is the "You have to be definitely doing nothing of the sort, no programming, no business, no nothing. Disconnect and fuck off for a few weeks or months", and the people that pursue and desire that for themselves. You just sound like you put proper time and effort into the 2 areas that you conduct your business through :)

ntkachov• 14 years ago

There is a difference between having an unwavering passion for ones craft and having an unwavering passion for ones craft between 9am and 5pm.

Sure, your job could also be your hobby but that doesn't mean that your job HAS to be your hobby. I know plenty of engineers who love tinkering with stuff but would rather spend the weekend doing other things and spend time with family and friends.

Edit: I too spend 14 hours a day programming. But I'm working towards a start up. I love what I do and I do enjoy it, but I would much rather spend the weekend hanging out with people if I had the chance.

b4c0n6• 14 years ago

I too have endured the programming requirements of a startup, I feel you when you say 14+ hours a day programming. But I absolutely loved the rush, I would have spent more time getting our product more complete/polished if I had the opportunity.

Seeing something I built go out there and help people, make people happy, provide a service that people use day to day, now THAT is something I want to spend my time doing, be it on or off the clock. That filled and continues to fill most of my weekends/afternoons.

Jare• 14 years ago

I've never met a great programmer than didn't also love other stuff besides programming. Variety is the juice that creativity runs on.

b4c0n6• 14 years ago

Oh absolutely. But when did people come to Hacker News to discuss how much they love doing stuff besides programming, or how to reduce the amount of programming you do?

Can't find any examples just right now, but the mentality of "I am a programmer and I want more time away from programming" seems to be everywhere at the moment, I don't get it. Not so much "why do people love other things", but "why don't programmers love programming as much as other they love other things".

(I am a guitar player and would die without 1-2 hours of jamming every couple of days, just so you know I'm not lying, I can love other things as well! :P)

foxhop• 14 years ago

I think people who enjoy programming, really enjoy it,don't communicate here as much as other places.

I am with you though, I would have rather stayed home and worked implementing gradual engagement on one of my "pet" web applications then going to the jack-and-jill party with my wife today.

Oh well, there is always tonight, after hours.

b4c0n6• 14 years ago

jlarocco• 14 years ago

I'm pretty certain the question is trolling, but...

It's because sitting in front of a computer coding all day, everyday makes a person fat and boring. And nobody else wants to hang around people who are fat and boring.

It may not be obvious that coding all the time makes a person fat and boring, so the "get out and do stuff" responses are warnings to let people know that there's more to life than writing code.

chrisbennet• 14 years ago

Having passion for your craft does not have to be an exclusive thing. Can you image other artists bemoaning Leonardo da Vinci's "lack of passion" because he worked on engineering projects as well?

codeonfire• 14 years ago

The first question would be "Is this advice truly coming from programmers?" Even if it is, 'being a better programmer' means different things to different people. Many people are not dedicated to trying to be the best but still identify as a programmer.

If you ask someone how to be a better musician, someone might say "go to more shows", 'hang out and collaborate with other musicians", or "try lots of different instruments". If you ask someone who strives to be the best musician and is world class, they hear the question as "how do I be the best musician" not "how do I be a better musician." Who wants to merely be better? They only know to be the best and will say "practice all night and all day forever". It doesn't mean they are the best or ever will be, but its a different mindset.

pux0r3• 14 years ago

I used to be like that, always spending every moment coding or learning about ways to improve coding (and I did learn and improve a lot). But I also had absolutely no social life and was terribly overweight/out of shape. I still code in my free time (in fact, I spent much of today playing with Scala and LWJGL), but I make a conscious effort to head out and interact with the world (in as nerdy of a way as possible of course, I have a FuelBand which forces me to go out and be active to keep my streak up). I love coding (both at work and for fun) and would still do it all day every day if I could, but I found my quality of life increased by leaps and bounds as I picked up the slack elsewhere (not just in fitness, but mentally as well. Especially walking around, hiking, exercise, &c helps clear my mind and refocus). Maybe you're not as totally lost as I was, but until technology advances enough for me to exist as a brain in a vat, I have actually found it very important to get away and engage tertiary faculties not directly related to the generation of sourcecode. And I'm never too far away from my projects anyway. I tend to have a chromebook/tablet/phone with me running an ssh client and a tmux session always running on my raspberry pi, but typically forget about it entirely unless I have a sudden epiphany).

khyryk• 14 years ago

>I don't get it - I just don't get it. Is there anyone out there like me that would stay indoors tinkering with hardware and software over spending time rock-climbing or vacationing any day of the week?

No, programming isn't the pinnacle of enjoyment and/or pleasure for me. It can be an interesting way to pass time, but it's also a great way (for me, and I'd say for most people once enough time has passed) to become fat and boring if taken too far.

You have a hard time understanding why someone would not want to do one certain really cool thing as often as they can, while I wonder how you can possibly keep doing just one thing and miss out on everything your damn short life has to offer.

I'll go a step further in isolating myself and say that if I had an "unwavering passion" for something, I'd begin to suspect some sort of compulsive disorder.

runT1ME• 14 years ago

Coding is one of the most enjoyable things in life for me. There are times when a good coffee, nice music, and scala turn into hours of bliss.

However, I just don't think it's possible to operate in the mindset required for good software engineering for prolonged periods of time, day in and day out, without breaks.

So I do other things to recharge. I am friends with a professional martial arts instructor. It's his favorite thing to do, but doing it ten hours a day 7 days a week isn't healthy for his body. So he surfs and reads books etc. too.

Don't see why it would be any different for your mind.

Whats up with programmers avoiding programming?

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