Waymo will bring autonomous vehicles to Tokyo

https://waymo.com/blog/2024/12/partnering-with-nihon-kotsu-and-go-on-our-first-international-road-trip

by EvgeniyZh • 2 years ago

187 105 2 years ago

That’s such a show of confidence! It’s an entirely different driving world over there. Particularly in terms of what is expected outside of what is mandated. Looking forward to trying it.

trhaynes• 2 years ago

Can you elaborate on what is expected outside of being mandated?

refactor_master• 2 years ago

In my experience the cars are highly regulated and very predictable on the main roads. Marked out lanes, low speed limits, many red lights.

But pedestrians and bikes are everywhere, and they don't always obey the rules. I wonder how well collision detection handles sharing lanes with bikes without suddenly braking in the middle of the road.

qwertox• 2 years ago

Behave super-correctly, over-optimized and extra-cooperative as to minimize any negative effects for everyone.

dgrin91• 2 years ago

Not a full rollout, just initial test drives. Still a big step. Good to see Waymo scaling up over time.

theultdev4• 2 years ago

Yeah that should be wonderful for the traffic over there...

thatswrong0• 2 years ago

Luckily public transit is amazing there.

theultdev4• 2 years ago

Yes it does. And there's still a lot of traffic. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

The public transportation is not relevant for the discussion of personal vehicle transportation though.

throwaway2037• 2 years ago

Are you implying that Tokyo already has a lot of car/truck traffic? (It does not.) Or implying that Waymo meaningfully increases traffic? (I doubt it.)

theultdev4• 2 years ago

Are you kidding me? I lived there for 5 years. Tokyo has an immense amount of traffic.

And yes Waymo increases traffic. People in SF were putting cones on them to disable them because of it, there's tons of videos of them causing traffic jams.

They are famously overly cautious and often stop and do strange maneuvers.

Recently one held up Kamala Harris' motor brigade for quite a while until a cop moved it.

tkgally2• 2 years ago

This will be interesting. As an aging nondriver living in Yokohama, I’ve been both hoping that self-driving cars become available here before I develop mobility issues and wondering how feasible they will be. Since I don’t drive, I don’t have a sense of what the roads here are like from the vehicle’s perspective. But many of the streets, including in the neighborhood where I live [1], are narrow, have no sidewalks, and are shared by cars, bicyclists, and pedestrians. Very different from, say, Phoenix.

[1] https://maps.app.goo.gl/CVDYknAXeeA6u4DP8

GoatOfAplomb• 2 years ago

Waymo is doing alright in San Francisco as well. That's not directly comparable to Tokyo, either, but I expect it's a much less distant of a comparison than Phoenix.

nixpulvis2• 2 years ago

I saw a video of a bunch of Waymos backed up on each other being too hesitant to make a turn. Kinda reinforced a fear I have of these things. Not to mention I would hate to try and wave one of these things to turn before me... or wink my headlights.

IDK, like I get the appeal for driverless cars, I just still don't like them.

bobthepanda• 2 years ago

In SF you still have clearly delineated sidewalks with curbs and crossing lights. Japanese side streets are basically equivalent to alleys and cars are guests. There aren’t too many streets like that in the US at all.

boulos• 2 years ago

That's wider than the streets near me in San Francisco :). Lots of our "two way" streets, are only one vehicle wide, because we allow parking on both sides of the street, too.

aitchnyu• 2 years ago

I admire Japanese taxis for mounting mirrors on the bonnet so they dont stick out. I'm Indian and I'm glad I had a choice of 170ish cm wide Japanese sedans meant for Asia and hate the new 180ish cars. The Jaguar is 213 cm wide.

k99x553• 2 years ago

Don't fall on the trap of self-driving cars will make our lives better. They won't. Building cities for people first is what will improve our lives.

Watch: How Self-Driving Cars will Destroy Cities (and what to do about it) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=040ejWnFkj0

tkgally2• 2 years ago

The city where I live—Yokohama—is very different in layout and density from the U.S. cities shown in that video. My neighborhood consists of many small plots of land, each with a different owner, separated by narrow streets. Unless it all gets wiped out by a tsunami, it’s never going to be rebuilt or have its layout changed—the landowners, many of whom live on their plots of land, would not stand for it.

My house is on the side of a steep hill. If in a few years—I am now 67–I become unable to walk up that hill, the only way I will be able to go anywhere is by calling a taxi. (No one in my family here knows how to drive.) Because of demographic trends, there is a shortage of human taxi drivers now and that shortage is likely to get worse. If I do become significantly less mobile five or ten years from now, I will be able to keep living in my home only if self-driving taxis are available.

So for me, in that very likely scenario, self-driving cars would make my life better. In Japan, there are millions of people in similar situations to mine.

RGamma• 2 years ago

That video was rather thoughtful. Almost makes me want to short SDC companies, buuut lobbying.

Aeolun7• 2 years ago

Tokyo doesn’t need to be built for people. It already is.

matthewfelgate2• 2 years ago

Self-Driving cars will make roads safer and open up cheap travel for millions of people.

fldskfjdslkfj2• 2 years ago

Who says self driving cars will need to pertain their existing form? Hopefully that fact that you wont own the vehicle will lead to companies building more minimal form factors since in most cases it's a single rider and they'll incentivised by keeping costs as low as possible.

tim3333• 2 years ago

I watched part of "Watch: How Self-Driving Cars will Destroy Cities (and what to do about it)" and the arguments seemed pretty weak. A lot of it was along the lines of current cars cause problems in cities and self driving cars are still cars so self driving cars bad. But there's a lot of flexibility as to how they get used and regulated.

Just thinking about one city issue local to me - I live near Oxford Street in London which is currently overcrowded with thousands of people plus buses and taxis and the like. They've wanted to pedestrianize it for ages and probably will but there are problems with accessibility for the handicapped and delivery of stuff to the stores. That could maybe be sorted with slow moving self driving evs picking those up? I'm not sure but at least it's another option.

Ajedi322• 2 years ago

Almost all of these "cars bad" arguments fall for the trap of focusing solely on the disadvantages of cars while completely ignoring the huge upsides that make them by far most popular form of transport in rich countries in the first place: Long distance transport directly from your home to the front door of your destination in a private, climate-controlled cabin with zero transfers or unnecessary stops.

Self-driving will make our lives better because it takes that already very successful form of transportation and makes it significantly safer and more efficient without compromising any of its advantages.

kjkjadksj• 2 years ago

I wouldn’t be surprised if they just avoid those difficult cases. The algorithm is biased to be safe over assertive so people will just cut it off on foot and it will sit there.

For example in LA, waymo is geofenced away from some of the hilly neighborhoods where there are narrow switchbacking roads shared with pedestrians due to a lack of sidewalk. It also does not go on freeways.

rester324• 2 years ago

I guess the biggest challenge is gonna be not to get stuck in those narrow alleys that they call streets in Japan. Some of them can hardly take a kei car, let alone a sedan

I can already see in my imagination all the jijis swearing when they see those cars stuck :)

keerthiko• 2 years ago

The average motorcar still operating in japan is approximately 2/3rd the mass, and presumably volume, of the average personal vehicle in america. They also don't allow street parking on those "alleys".

Effectively they can be between 1/6th (2-lane) and 2/9th (1-lane) the width of a typical one-way american street and still have room for pedestrians along the side.

KennyBlanken• 2 years ago

They can barely change lanes: https://youtu.be/spw176TZ7-8?t=88

...and are completely flummoxed by a couple of traffic cones closing off a lane: https://youtu.be/fMFzs0NZ_Mc?t=56

minwcnt5• 2 years ago

These videos are from three and six years ago, lol.

opdahl• 2 years ago

Going to be very interesting to see how the Japanese people react to this. The service the taxi drivers provide when you take the taxi in Japan is on another level, such as waiting for you with the open door and closing the door for you as you enter. A driverless car will never be able to copy that. Japan also has very good public transportation reducing the need for a car for day to day travel so cost might be less of a factor.

dzhiurgis• 2 years ago

Plenty of cars with electric doors, including Tesla.

But true, even Uber is kinda flash with driver wearing white gloves.

pests• 2 years ago

waiting for you with the open door and closing the door for you as you enter

I know you meant more than this, but I'm sure automating opening and closing the doors will be a lesser challenge then developing autonomous self driving?

ijustlovemath• 2 years ago

I don't think that would elicit the same feeling as a driver doing it

ChumpGPT• 2 years ago

Taxis in Tokyo already have automated doors. The Toyota Crown's rear doors can open and close without the Cab driver getting out.

bluepizza• 2 years ago

Taxi doors already automatically open and close in major Japanese metro areas.

There is a certain romance around good service, but the good service is not the reason why people use taxis here.

One could make a similar argument that self service restaurants serving revolving sushi, or tablet ordered sushi miss the good service of a great restaurant. Yet these places are wildly popular, because one goes there to eat.

numpad06• 2 years ago

Old Japanese sedan style taxis universally had a handbrake-like lever around front driver side door sill that opens rear passenger side door through a mechanical linkage.

Toyota JPN Taxi[1] replaced most sedan cabs, and it has electric sliding doors which is nicer than swing-out doors. Already opens and closes with electronic commands from driver seat. No big deal.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_JPN_Taxi

alwayslikethis• 2 years ago

such as waiting for you with the open door and closing the door for you as you enter

Most taxis in Japan have driver-controlled doors. The driver doesn't have to get off the seat at all. Given it is already automated, it is trivial for a driverless car to do.

jdeibele• 2 years ago

What I've read is that some/most taxis in Japan have an automatic back door for the passenger. https://musa4trip.wordpress.com/2014/04/04/taxis-in-japan-do...

Searching, I see references to automatic doors preventing robberies but no explanations as to how that would be. Perhaps the barriers between the back seat passengers and driver prevent knife threats? I wouldn't expect robbers in Japan to have guns, like they would in the US.

Oh, maybe you mean the automatic doors are "waiting for you with the open door"? A lot of cars have hatchbacks that close using a remote, either on the dash or on a fob. It was big news that people were demonstrating the CyberTruck cutting carrots or hot dogs because people are used to hatchbacks closing and opening safely. It seems a lot simpler to automate doors opening and closing safely than autonomously driving in Tokyo.

skhr0680• 2 years ago

It’s for liability reasons. The driver is responsible for any damage caused to property or vehicles by passengers opening their door

numpad06• 2 years ago

The classic implementation used mechanical link rods, which no one knew how to operate against driver's will. So there used to be occasional comedic stories around that, like attempted free rider taken to police or man fleeing scene tripping on the door.

bamboozled3• 2 years ago

Look, there is a lot of profit on the table. None of the employment or societal concern matter at all.

seanmcdirmid• 2 years ago

Last time I took a cab in Japan the driver pushed a button to open the door and pressed a button to close it. It was surreal actually.

zombiwoof• 2 years ago

I agree on the taxi experience being next level. I just wonder how the aging population will replace them. Have you ever seen a 20 something cab driver in Japan? I been many times and never have so wonder if there is a job shortage coming

Aeolun7• 2 years ago

Means it’ll eventually get more expensive no?

xarope• 2 years ago

also, wearing white gloves, and actually helping you with luggage

RavlaAlvar• 2 years ago

It is unbelievably expensive though, a 40 minute ride from Osaka city to KIX airport could cost you 30k yen.

Aeolun7• 2 years ago

I did a hours ride from my home to the airport for 10k. How do you get to 30k?

fldskfjdslkfj2• 2 years ago

Japan loves its robots, i'm expecting they'll love these robots.

sedatk• 2 years ago

Eh, spent two weeks in Japan in mainly Tokyo and Kyoto a couple weeks ago, and I can safely say that the quality of taxi service varies a lot. Fantastic ride from and to the airport with the driver handling all our luggages. But, taxi drivers who didn't speak English and who couldn't read romanized addresses were common. It was a problem because Google Maps defaulted to romanized addresses on our phones due to our phone language being English.

A taxi we called up using Uber (Uber can only call taxis in Japan) even delayed cancelling our ride passive-aggressively long enough that we missed other rides and lost a lot of time.

My friends had even met with a rude taxi driver (I know impossible, in Japan, right?) that refused to take them to a place that he deemed too close in Kyoto.

We also had numerous great experiences with taxis too: accomodating our stops, having lovely conversations, giving out touristic information and they tried really hard to go accross the language barrier. Great people overall. But, having said that, as a tourist, I'd take a Waymo any day over a taxi in Japan just because I think it would be less friction for me.

Animats• 2 years ago

Makes sense. High-tech country, robot-friendly, declining young population.

leonheld• 2 years ago

Individual autonomous cars will solve all transportation issues. What's that? Trains? Trams? Efficient urban fabric? Things that Tokyo, gasp, already has? Bull.

/s.

xbmcuser• 2 years ago

In my opinion Individual autonomous vehicles will solve most transportation issues not Individual autonomous cars. Currently to transport 60-70 kg person we are moving 2 mton machines ie cars. And those 2 mton machines are in use for just 30-60 min a day.

signatoremo• 2 years ago

There are about 50,000 taxis in Tokyo. What are they doing there?

bamboozled3• 2 years ago

I don't know but Tokyo doesn't need more cars on the road, that's for sure.

theultdev4• 2 years ago

Trains close at midnight. Taxis are mainly used after then and for more affluent people or people in emergencies / special occasions.

philip1209• 2 years ago

Curious whether they will open doors automatically. It's a faux pas to try opening a taxi door yourself in Japan.

brandall10• 2 years ago

As someone mentioned in a comment up the chain, it's for liability reasons - if a passenger damages something with the door, the driver is on the hook.

Seeing how an autonomous vehicle is similarly liable for its impact on the environment it stands to reason this can and will be easily dealt with.

shidoYagi• 2 years ago

I wonder how much this service costs. If it is as expensive as taxi services in Tokyo, it could fail. While I don’t think it’s possible for the cost to match that of a train, if this service materializes successfully, it could become the most disruptive innovation in Japan.

How about California or Phoenix?

klausa8• 2 years ago

I think the killer feature for this will be if it's readily available at night, for reasonable prices.

I love living here, but the "do we go home or stay out all night?" decision at ~23:30 when out sucks.

If I could get across town for ~3000 JPY at 2AM without having to wait 50 minutes for a cab around Shinjuku, I'd be ecstatic.

ryan_lane• 2 years ago

Taxis are readily available, but the price after hours is why people don't take them. I doubt waymo will be able to bypass taxi pricing.

Aeolun7• 2 years ago

If it is as expensive as taxi services in Tokyo, it could fail.

You mean cheap? How are taxi services in Tokyo expensive?

numpad06• 2 years ago

That explains a black Audi sedan and Toyota? SUV I've seen. I thought it didn't like an Autoware setup, and also that an euro car is an odd choice as they tend to be harder to rig for an SDC.

matthewfelgate2• 2 years ago

This gives me hope WayMo might come to the UK after Japan.

travisporter• 2 years ago

Is anyone working on autonomous busses or vans for public transport?

AlotOfReading• 2 years ago

Yes, beep is probably the most well known of them, having two test locations in Contra Costa county you can ride if you're in the bay area. They're much less sophisticated than Waymo vehicles though, and the unit economics are much less favorable.

cbdhsjshs• 2 years ago

I'll be a self-driving believer when Waymo brings autonomous vehicles to New Delhi.

edit - This wasn't ment as disparaging, but perhaps it came across that way. The traffic situation in New Delhi is NUTS. I wouldn't trust myself to drive there, a local driver is a requirement and not a convenience. Crossing major streets as a pedestrian is hard enough, they key is to make eye contact with the driver about to run you over and exchange your intentions through microexpressions. Repeat that 30 times until you reach the other side of the road. Viewing a major intersection from above is like viewing two schools of fish seemlessly swiming through each other. And some of those fish are animal-drawn carts.

I'm in awe of the traffic situation on the subcontinent (as well as many other Indian things - like the word prepone!).

Waymo will bring autonomous vehicles to Tokyo

Related Stories