Women and Tech

http://womenandtech.com

by heatherpayne • 14 years ago

105 101 14 years ago

womenandtech.com

heatherpayne• 14 years ago

Seeing projects like this come to the surface makes me love living in Toronto.

cassiemc15• 14 years ago

Thanks Heather! We love Toronto too! We're mutually inspired by everything that comes out of the place.

gilrain4• 14 years ago

I'd prefer a slightly different slogan. I like "We're not endorsing the obvious," but I feel like "We're really not complaining" is a bit insulting to those who really are highlighting the problems with sexism in technology fields. That's valuable work too, and I don't think it's a positive step to position yourself as, "We're not complainers, like those other women, gosh, am I right?"

I love the idea, and I'll be keeping an eye on the site. I just wish the slogan was more like, "We're not endorsing the obvious. We're celebrating the hidden." Or something like that. You can resolve not to focus on (often well deserved and important) "complaining", and I think that's a valuable focus for someone to take, but please don't cast aspersions by implication on those that do speak up about active issues.

cassiemc15• 14 years ago

Fair point and we agree – it was more that we wanted to focus on the positive, not the negative. It's an iterative project though (including the copy) and this is our first go so we may take another look at it. Thanks for your thoughts!

gilrain4• 14 years ago

Absolutely. I love and agree with the goal of focusing on the positives, celebrating the actual successes happening today. I think that small part of the slogan actually introduces a negative to the site, if anything.

I'm really glad to see this being done at all, however, and the site looks great! I hope you get a lot of traction!

SkyMarshal• 14 years ago

It occurs to me it might be nice to not just recognize women in tech, but thank them for sticking with it, despite any sexism and discouragement they may have encountered along the way.

I've seen the case made both anecdotally and empirically that women, or maybe more generally, mixed gender teams, boards of directors, etc., have broader perspectives, make better decisions, take less bad risks, and are more generally enriching than all-male.

So, perhaps a simple 'thanks for sticking with it and bringing that' would be a nice addition.

jmcqk6• 14 years ago

This seems similar to another site that's pretty great, though it's focus is a little different.

http://www.steminist.com/

brianfryer2• 14 years ago

Totally agree.

When I read "not complaining", it conjures images of complaining. Rather, a stronger focus on "commending" "applauding" would be apropos.

cassiemc15• 14 years ago

Definitely. Good word recommendations, thanks!

timc34• 14 years ago

Peopleandtech.com? If they are celebrating awesomeness?

gilrain4• 14 years ago

That'd be cool too, but this site is probably trying, at least partially, to encourage women and girls who may aspire to enter a tech field but are discouraged by being unaware of the many admirable women who have succeeded against the odds before them.

In a perfect world, peopleandtech.com would be all that's required, but unfortunately we're not quite there yet.

mibbitier6• 14 years ago

> In a perfect world, peopleandtech.com would be all that's required, but unfortunately we're not quite there yet.

At the risk of being controversial, we will never be there, and nor should we desire to be. Women like different things to men. We're hard wired to have different tastes, desires, strengths and weaknesses.

timc34• 14 years ago

I agree, I think it is positive to have good role models for everyone to aspire to.

roguecoder• 14 years ago

Almost every "peopleandtech.com" blog ends up being "men come talk about tech and very very occasionally we get a woman on to talk about women in tech."

Plus, there are lots of those around. Why would we need one more?

timc34• 14 years ago

Well, granted there is not enough women talking, but I don't want to hear about women talking about women in tech. I want to hear different the different perspectives of people in tech talking about whatever which could very well be a female perspective.

aristus• 14 years ago

Because of my name I get occasional contacts from journalists who write for magazines with names like "Latino Business" and "Technology California Latino". At first I felt the same as you, but one of the journalists explained it to me quite well:

The point is not to mindlessly cheerlead because a person has some attribute, whether it's two X chromosomes, or a last name ending in a vowel, etc. The point is to aggregate the accomplishments of people with that attribute, so they don't always feel so damned alone.

My wife was working at a large tech company on an automated translation system. She needed some more native Spanish speakers to help vet the output. The call went out to the regular employees, thousands of people, and she got nothing. Hindi, Chinese, OK. But no Spanish. She ended up going down to the cafeteria (!) and asking the workers there to help out.

Maybe, someday, a woman programmer will be as unremarkable as a woman lawyer. Until then, well, keep remarking on it.

timc34• 14 years ago

I understand and I feel that its such a pity really, as it should be a level playing field

juliehache• 14 years ago

"The point is not to mindlessly cheerlead because a person has some attribute, whether it's two X chromosomes, or a last name ending in a vowel, etc."

Well said! Every time I show up at a tech event and someone shouts "Yay! There's a girl here!", it just makes me want to leave.

debacle• 14 years ago

I think "We're really not complaining" is taking it a bit far. Sometimes the best way to handle an issue is to ignore the issue - why can't this site just be about the accomplishments of women in STEM? The allusions are a detractor.

cassiemc15• 14 years ago

If you go back now you'll see we've changed the copy.

astridrosemarin• 14 years ago

This'll be good for all the event/ conference organisers in Toronto as well. It's always tough getting women to speak at those sorts of things!

cassiemc15• 14 years ago

Yes this is something we talk about a lot and is one of the main issues we hope to help address.

britburger• 14 years ago

Nail on the head! Absolutely! This was actually a driving force behind the project's genesis. To address the unbalance in conference speaker lineups by raising the public profile of incredible women working in the community.

_b8r0• 14 years ago

I like this. I'm not too sure about the slogan as others have mentioned, but something that focuses on the positive achievements of women in industry to me is far better than focusing on the negative like the terrible link from last week.

The only disappointing thing was the link to Toronto, I have two women in the UK that I'd nominate straight from the get go and a possible third (although I'd need to clear it with her first).

cassiemc15• 14 years ago

Yes there are clearly awesome women all over the world doing amazing things in Tech. But since we are a small team we needed a reasonable focus area. We definitely encourage you to do something similar wherever you are, though!

mibbitier6• 14 years ago

> "Let's make the issue of women in tech a thing of the past"

Really? By creating a whole website around it? I think it'd be really good to sum up what issue you consider there to be with women in tech...

  * Are there specific instances of sexism that occur?
  * Are there "not enough" women in tech?
  * Is tech uninteresting to most women?

You're suggesting there's an "issue" that needs solving, but I can't find any description on the website of what you consider that issue to be.

Sharing stories from startup women is great, although I'm not a fan of the reverse sexism.

cassiemc15• 14 years ago

We're trying to nail down some of the issues ourselves. The issues our team has discussed so far are often amorphous or interpreted differently depending on context and person, so you can imagine they are difficult to pin down. Exposure and networking were a couple of the harmless problems we thought could help address immediately.

We do have several men on our team (more men than women, in fact), and don't at all intend "reverse sexism".

Also, just to clarify, this isn't just for startup women but for any lady working in tech fields – including those coders who sit behind big monitors all day and are reluctant to put themselves in the limelight or to serve as mentors/role models.

japhyr2• 14 years ago

I think you might be fine not mentioning specific issues yourselves. If you let women tell their stories in an open and honest way, the issues will come out in their stories.

If you craft some well-thought-out questions people will be likely to talk about the specific issues they have faced, how they dealt with those issues, and what kinds of supports they would like to see in their profession.

Focusing on people's stories is a great way to bring out these issues from the very people who have experienced them.

mediacrisis3• 14 years ago

"Reverse sexism"? Check your privilege.

NotMyMorals2• 14 years ago

>"Reverse sexism"? Check your privilege.

"Privilege?" Check your cultural Marxism.

sophacles4• 14 years ago

Neat project. I like the focus on the positive. IMO this will be a good resource. I really hope this succeeds and takes off in a big way. I like to encourage the women I know in tech to participate in stuff like this, but many times they don't want to because a lot of times "women in tech" issues focus too much on the negative, or the sexism issue rather than the positive or even just the tech.

I don't know anyone in Toronto, but I have several nominations around the US, should your scope expansion work out :)

(Completely aside: is there any good advice for men who want to further the role of women in tech -- because balance is always a good idea -- to help and encourage without being overbearing or accidentally patronizing? I worry about furthering the problem accidentally so I very rarely bring up this topic, even though I feel strongly about it).

ericabiz2• 14 years ago

"Completely aside: is there any good advice for men who want to further the role of women in tech..."

As a successful woman in tech, I would say the following:

--Note that women tend to underplay their accomplishments and judge themselves more harshly (I've also seen men who fit into this pattern, but it's more common with women.) So when a woman who fits this pattern says "I'm decent at x", it may be the same as a man saying "I'm great at x."

--Become a champion for the women in your life who deserve more recognition. Encourage them to take more leadership roles, jump at more speaking gigs when presented with the opportunity, etc. Women will often tend to think "I'm not ready for that yet" while a man with similar experience will say "Yeah, let's go for it!"

--Help the youngest girls in your life develop more self-confidence. My cousin, a brilliantly smart teenager, kept telling me, "I'm terrible at math." I encouraged her to focus on the positive (she was getting great grades in her math classes, and understood the problem set) and to think more positively about her abilities.

This lack of self-confidence is ingrained from an early age in many women and affects us throughout life in many cases. Encouraging girls to think more empowering thoughts and to have more confidence may be the best thing you can do to give them a better chance for success.

sophacles4• 14 years ago

Thanks for the advice!

wccrawford2• 14 years ago

I'm a guy who fits your description of judging themselves too harshly and downplaying their skills and readiness. I have a tough time telling when other people are doing this, even though I do it myself.

Do you have any advice for telling when someone is doing this?

I ask because I can't blindly apply it to women any more than men, because I've seen so many women be over-confident in their skills, too.

clarebear• 14 years ago

Is there any good advice for men who want to further the role of women in tech? My advice is to pick a woman (one at a time) that you get along with and think is or could be a rock star and then mentor her. Nominate her for awards. Let her know when opportunities may be available in 6 months, and how to make herself a top candidate for that role in the decision makers minds before it is announced. As a woman in tech, I have found it very frustrating that women who do make it to a high level either don't know how they did it or aren't honest about the process (tricks and sacrifices) at women's networking events. But from what I can tell, this is it. Someone knowingly picked them to be in the right place at the right time, gave them the support to run with whatever it was, and helped recognize their achievements. On the other end of the spectrum, don't decide for women working for/ with you what their priorities are without them telling you (for example, if she has a kid, assume she wouldn't want to go to this conference without asking). Invite friends' daughters to take your kid to work day if they don't think to ask.

sophacles4• 14 years ago

Thanks for this input!

I read an article once, about racism in the workplace, and how it creates a situation where minorities who succeed are harsher on people of the same minority than others are on anyone of that minority. I can't remember the name of the phenomenon, (or honestly the article) but it referenced an study done on successful women in the workplace, who followed that pattern as well. The general phenomenon was attributed to this general set of thoughts:

1. The successful person probably had some struggles getting to success, which were overcome. (No reference to help or not).

2. The successful person is has gained a tenuous foothold for the group, and is believes that they can help others succeed, but also worries that they might be seen as an exceptional outlier to the general stereotypical views the outlier holds to that group.

3. The successful person wants to get other people from the group in, but only knows the one path that worked for them. They also know the mistakes and have hindsight on "easier" ways.

4. Combining the fears about stereotypes, and the bits of wisdom they have, as well as the limited knowledge of successful paths (frequently there aren't a lot of other role models to compare with), they want to mold their successors into their understanding. The limited view, plus consequences of losing the foothold being a potentially big setback for the group, they tend to become very strict disciplinarians, as a way of maintaining the success path to a greater "beachead" for their group.

(I know this paraphrasing of the article is not the best, I'm pretty tired, and it was a long time ago I read about it.)

I don't know if this is what is happening in what you describe, but it reminded me of it. I'll see if I can dig up a reference, but perhaps just knowing about this will help you and other women at these events who are experiencing the problem you describe contextualize what is happening. Maybe it would help get the women who aren't being honest to open up about their mistakes and actual paths.

A different tack on this same thing: it might also be an outcropping of the common "i did this on my own" image of success that seems to be the cultural norm for successful people to project: if they had help, they shouldn't admit it, perhaps enhanced by the fact that in the dominant group, imperfections (such as admitting needing a mentor) are less judged than those same imperfections in a minority.

groby_b2• 14 years ago

Completely aside:...

As another successful woman in tech, yes, there is. A very simple thing. Whenever you hear your colleagues make a misogynist remark, call them out on it.

Yes, I realize many of them are meant as funny asides, but here's the problem: They still hurt. We get that they're usually not meant offensive, but it's simply not funny if you're on the receiving end of those "jokes". Every single one of them is a cut to the confidence and willingness of women in this field.

I know you want to focus on the positive, and I apologize for dragging in a negative instead.

To be clear, nobody requires you to be a knight in shining armor, riding to our rescue ;) But it'd sure be nice to occasionally hear an "You know what, dude? Not cool. Not cool at all" when those remarks come out.

sophacles4• 14 years ago

Thanks for the input!

spindritf• 14 years ago

That's a neat idea. You can post stories, work samples, a podcast, but...

If you already know whom you want to interview, the site would benefit from having a story or two already there, on launch.

If you're targeting the tech crowd, add an rss feed in addition to the e-mail newsletter.

And lose this bar at the top, it's completely unnecessarily wasting vertical space.

nvk• 14 years ago

We are looking for fullstack Rails devs, would love to even out the gender ratio :)

japhyr2• 14 years ago

I love it. I think projects like this can play a strong role in addressing the issue of sexism in technology. I also think that conditions can change radically for the better, once there is a critical mass of projects focused on supporting women in tech, and people who really understand the issue. It doesn't have to be a gradual change over 20 years.

The focus of the project sounds quite meaningful, and it is well said in the first couple lines: "We're going to share stories about smart women doing important things." That is perfect; I want to read those stories!

The copy gets off track a bit after that, like others here are already saying. "We're simply going to hound some clever women in tech..." does not sound good. Part of the problem is women in tech getting hounded. I know the intention here is good, but there is language that doesn't bring to mind the problems. This project is strong enough that you can just say, "We're going to invite clever women in tech..." People will understand the project, and want to be part of it.

Others are talking about the "We're really not complaining" slogan, but I have no idea what "We're not endorsing the obvious" means. What's obvious to me is that telling smart women's stories is a good thing. I'm not sure what you are referring to here.

A small design note: the top banner is huge, and takes up a lot of screen real estate, which distracts from your message.

Again, I love it. I teach high school math and science, and I can say anecdotally that when I show this kind of project to the young women in my classes, I can see a change in them immediately. Most young women I see in school have no idea that people care to support them specifically. When they learn about projects like this, they become more confident that they could be successful in tech-related fields. Thank you for what you are doing.

wccrawford2• 14 years ago

Where's the RSS feed? I don't know you well enough to give you my email, but I'd put you in my feed reader and enjoy articles as they come out.

cassiemc15• 14 years ago

Don't have one yet but you could follow us on Twitter and we'll let you know when we do. @womenandtech

cjbprime• 14 years ago

Kudos for doing this! Raising the visibility of role models for women in tech is noble work.

I hope you find an easy way to make the site grow past Toronto, perhaps with submitted stories from people in other cities that follow your standard style.

Have you thought about sometimes making (edited?) video recordings of the interviews? I can see how this would make many interviewees nervous, but I think it would also increase the effectiveness of the interviews for people who are comfortable with it. It would help make it easier to "put a face" to women in tech.

Hm, photos could work pretty well for that, too. Have you thought about getting a good photographer to take photos of the women whose stories are being told, perhaps with photos of them both "at work" and at your interview?

cassiemc15• 14 years ago

All good ideas! We hope our final presentation doesn't disappoint, because we think we have some pretty good ideas ourselves. =) Highlighting women in other cities as guest posts is something we hadn't thought of and I'll be sure to bring that up with the group as something we can potentially add to our long-term plans. Thanks!

vishaldpatel• 14 years ago

So, who is the intended audience?

uncomfytruths• 14 years ago

It's discouraging when women look up in the tech world and see mostly men. It's discouraging when blacks look up in the entreprenuer world and see mostly whites. It's discouraging when gentiles look up in the entertainment industry and see mostly jews (All Major Hollywood studios founded by jews or men of jewish descent).

It's discouraging and painful because everyone wants to know that they can succeed. They want to know that "someone like me can make it in this industry". So it's important for people who are minorities in industries to support each other and encourage themselves.

Get mad if you want, my problem with "Women in Tech" is that many times (not all) women don't add to the tech conversation and instead focus on showing themselves as victims. When men speak about tech it's about TECH, when women speak about tech it's about "The Lack of Women in Tech".

So a site like this is a step in the right direction.

MartinCron4• 14 years ago

Both "just talking about tech" and "talking about the lack of women in tech" are perfectly valid and necessary types of conversations.

mtalantikite2• 14 years ago

"We highlight them not for their gender, but because they are awesome by any kind of measure."

Just curious if you really mean gender, or if you actually mean sex.

nemo1618• 14 years ago

Okay, this whole Trans thing has gotten a little out of hand. Nobody is being oppressed because someone used the word "gender" instead of "sex." If you feel offended by that word choice, you're probably a little over-sensitive.

juridatenshi2• 14 years ago

It doesn't sound like the commenter is offended. I think they're asking for clarification. If the OP means gender, then they would hopefully be welcoming of trans women. If they mean sex, they may only be looking for cis-women.

jonathanjaeger• 14 years ago

Great concept, LOVE the website design and typography.

cassiemc15• 14 years ago

Thank you! The web design is by Mark Staplehurst (who shared the build with Brett Bergmann). The logotype is Blanche by Atipus via LostType.com and headlines are in Arvo by Anton Koovit via Google web fonts.

Mz3• 14 years ago

Years ago, I belonged to a gifted homeschoolers list. It turns out a lot of gifted kids who get homeschooled are "problem kids". Very often, they are twice exceptional: both gifted and disabled in some way. It meant that this gifted homeschoolers list was one of the most positive, pro-active environments for getting effective help for a child with a serious disability. Lists aimed at providing support for a particular disability are often fairly negative environments where assumptions about how much you must suffer subtly keep real solutions from being discussed. Folks pursuing real solutions get a lot of flack if they dare speak up and many of them just quietly go away after a while.

I don't know what would create the same thing for women in tech, but I think if someone could find that, it would be a more effective and resilient means to get support to women in tech. It would need to be a project which just so happened to attract a high percentage of women without the name or stated goal having anything to do with gender and which also in no way excluded men.

mamacorin• 14 years ago

http://giftedhomeschoolers.org - still going strong! :-)

Mz3• 14 years ago

That is not the list I was talking about.

groby_b2• 14 years ago

I'd love to see this expand outside Toronto. If I can offer any help/contacts in SoCal, feel free to ping me.

cassiemc15• 14 years ago

Appreciate the offer, thanks. Be sure to keep in touch with us and we'll put a call out if this becomes a part of our plans.

JackpotDen• 14 years ago

You missed the crucial step 4 :

Get these published in teen girl and cosmo magazines, because the women who read it on the internet are probably already in tech.

Women and Tech

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