Carmakers File Challenge to Parts of New Automatic-Braking Rule

https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/carmakers-file-challenge-to-parts-of-new-automatic-braking-rule-ebb653e9

25 66 2 years ago

bmurphy1976• 2 years ago

Can they fix my Jeep? It slams on the brakes for no reason whatsoever every time I back out of my driveway. That's not helping anybody and only motivates me to disable the system.

giantg23• 2 years ago

Jeep's system is absolutely heinous to use with a trailer or in a garage.

roamerz• 2 years ago

Ram 1500’s as well. There is one spot where I park when at a clients that does it every time. It’s startling when it happens. I turn it off when I think of it but often forget to re-enable it.

Workaccount2• 2 years ago

Should motivate you to ditch Chrysler. The aesthetic and name of Jeep is the only thing keeping that company afloat.

nytesky3• 2 years ago

As a likely tech saavy hacker news follower, why did you get a jeep when it is well known their quality is subpar? Were you really swayed by style?

pinkmuffinere2• 2 years ago

I’m not very stylish, but I understand that to some people, style is a characteristic of the quality — for example, the highest quality barf-colored wardrobe would still be unpopular, despite the specs. This poster might just place more emphasis on fashion than you and me

toast06• 2 years ago

For no reason, or for a silly reason? At my old house, my Chrysler was convinced I was going to murder the flowers that were encroaching into the view of the driveway. They were never really in danger though. On that vehicle, automatic braking in reverse was easy to understand, it would put some red overlays over the flowers it was trying to save. (or as aidenn0 points out, the roadway, I had that happen once or twice, too... but not in my regular routes, thankfully)

aidenn03• 2 years ago

My driveway is on a slope, and my wife's car thinks that the road itself is an obstruction the car will hit, so beeps the backup warning sound.

relaxing• 2 years ago

It’s a Jeep Thing.

teeray3• 2 years ago

I wonder if you could make cones that would fit over the ultrasonic sensors and deflect the sound laterally, so as to reduce the chance they would ever get a return…

garyfirestorm• 2 years ago

very strange, AEB is mostly standard on lot of vehicles these days. I am unsure why now they are challenging this ps I work for an automotive OEM - one of the big 3's

giantg23• 2 years ago

Pretty sure the current tech doesn't have standards that it has to meet, and most only operate at lower speeds.

kwhitefoot3• 2 years ago

As far as I know my Tesla S will take action at up to 145 kph (90 mph). I'm not sure if the latest updates apply to my 2015 car, if it does then AEB operates up to 200 kph (125 mph)

Aloisius• 2 years ago

Reuters article:

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/automa...

kwhitefoot3• 2 years ago

It's not car makers individually doing this it is an organization specifically associated with the importation of cars to the US.

It's amusing to see that VW is a member of the organization; in Europe they have been advertising Automatic Emergency Braking heavily for years.

Edit: Now I've read the better Reuters article I see that the proposed US regulation is much more ambitious than the AEB systems already very common in Europe. That makes the challenge make more sense.

metaphor2• 2 years ago

It's not car makers individually doing this it is an organization specifically associated with the importation of cars to the US.

It looks like[1] almost all the big players, major suppliers, and then some...except Tesla.

[1] https://www.autosinnovate.org/about/our-members

nickpinkston• 2 years ago

Just please allow us to turn it off when we want.

I drove a new BMW the other day, and the driver aides were beyond annoying and unable to be deactivated it seemed.

nytesky3• 2 years ago

Lane keeping is dangerous as it can cause over correction. AEB is a pretty binary triggered reaction and happens so fast it won't interfere with normal driving.

karaterobot2• 2 years ago

From the Reuters article linked in this thread:

NHTSA did not immediately comment but said in April the rule will save at least 360 lives annually

With about 43k traffic fatalities a year, this requirement is expected to save around 360? Is it that the vast majority of traffic fatalities do not involve someone not braking in time to avoid hitting another vehicle, or is it that braking in time would not save very many lives anyway? Either way, that's not an impressive statistic, especially if it is trying to justify a very intrusive mandate.

psunavy032• 2 years ago

This is the logical conclusion of the "if it saves just one life . . ." argument.

teeray3• 2 years ago

I really wish lawmakers were required to state the asterisk on that statement: *this measure may end more lives than saved in new and unforeseen ways

toast06• 2 years ago

If you solve 0.8% of deaths here and there, pretty soon you've postponed a lot of deaths?

I suspect though, that in addition to reducing fatalities, it'll also reduce the consequences of non-fatal collissions that match the pattern. Otoh, this pattern is perhaps an easily addressable pattern, not necessarily a particularly common pattern.

karaterobot2• 2 years ago

I think you've got to ask whether this is the most effective way to save people's lives, if that's the actual goal of the legislation. Feels like many other things would be more effective, less expensive, and more welcomed by people. This is one that everyone seems to hate, it's going to cost a lot of money to implement, and it doesn't even promise to do very much to fix the problem, so I'd not have prioritized it so highly myself.

gnicholas10• 2 years ago

I've wondered how the liability rules will work when either:

• vehicle A slams on the brakes inadvertently/erroneously or

• vehicle A slams on the brakes due to a small animal crossing the road

and then vehicle B hits vehicle A from behind. Some people think that the following vehicle is always at fault, but this isn't strictly true (IAAL). Certainly it would not be the case in the event of the lead car braking erroneously. It could also be complicated even in the event of purposeful automatic braking, if vehicle A stops at a rate faster than vehicle B can stop. That is, imagine vehicle A is a Porsche with huge Brembos and vehicle B is a minivan with factory brakes. Unless we're going to say that a vehicle always needs to factor in the braking ability of the vehicle it's behind, we'll need to adapt the liability rules to account for the possibility that following vehicles may not be able to brake as rapidly as lead vehicles.

I know that when I'm considering hitting the brakes hard (for example, approaching a light that turns yellow), I check my mirror to see if I'm likely to get hit from behind if I brake hard. Perhaps these systems should also be checking backward before activating? If the follow vehicle is determined to have AEB, then more aggressive braking would be enabled (though what about the vehicle 2 cars back?).

chollida1• 2 years ago

Certainly it would not be the case in the event of the lead car braking erroneously.

Not certain how you are rationalizing that.

If I think i see a deer jump out of the woods and hit the brakes then

a) I didn't need to brake, but my understanding of the world said I did, safety first!!

b) the car behind me would still be at fault.

Self driving vehicles would be the same. They could easily see something that a driver wouldn't and thus hit the brakes and stop a collision, but the human driver behind it wouldn't' see the obstacle and therefor think the autonomous car was breaking erroneously.

14• 2 years ago

If you hit someone then you are at fault. Very few scenarios where this isn’t true such as is someone cuts you off and brake checks you and you manage to catch it on video and can prove it. Otherwise if you can’t stop in time if the car in front comes to an instantaneous stop you were too close and are at fault. None of the what if they have Brembos brakes matters if you can’t stop in time of an instantaneous hard stop you are at fault. At required safe distances the car in front can hit a brick wall and you should have time to stop. There is no complication here.

Youden• 2 years ago

I don't know what the rules are in the US but here in Switzerland, the following driver is always assumed to be at fault. You're meant to maintain sufficient distance to safely stop your vehicle no matter what happens in front of you. If you hit the car in front of you, it generally means you didn't have sufficient distance, weren't paying sufficient attention to the road or weren't in a suitable state to be driving a car.

That's not to say that drivers here are absolutely perfect by any means; just that the expectation is that you always keep sufficient stopping distance.

It's drilled into you during the mandatory training courses that this means stopping distance as well, not just braking distance. You're also required to undertake a course that includes emergency stops in adverse conditions, like simulated ice.

nytesky3• 2 years ago

You should be following cars at a distance that you can react to them slamming on their brakes. Always. Unless the car drives in reverse and hits you the following vehicle is at fault.

gnicholas10• 2 years ago

Should this factor in the braking ability of the car in front of me? That is, should I give more follow distance when behind a 911 versus an Escalade? I think most people don't have a sense for how quickly different types of vehicles can stop if the driver slammed on the brakes.

bsder• 2 years ago

Some people think that the following vehicle is always at fault, but this isn't strictly true (IAAL).

I'm having a really hard time coming up with a scenario in which a following vehicle rear-ending another vehicle isn't going to be considered to be at fault.

All of the driver's ed materials I have ever seen always emphasize that you need to be in control of your car and able to stop in time irrespective of what the car in front of you does. This includes things like a sudden stop or a sudden lane change exposing a stopped car.

Back in reality, nobody ever puts enough distance between cars, so we wind up with dozen+ car pileups.

function_seven• 2 years ago

The only scenario I can think of is the "swoop and stoop", which is what insurance fraudsters do to induce a rear-end collision. A car from a neighboring lane suddenly changes lanes in front of you while also slamming on the brakes.

This includes things like a ... sudden lane change exposing a stopped car.

Oooh, this one has almost gotten me a couple of times. I'm much more defensive now, and when I see a car ahead changing lanes, I assume they're dodging a block wall with orphans sitting on top.

Basically, leave enough distance in front of you so even if the car you're following magically freezes in place, you have enough time to react, and still enough time after reaction to actually stop. In the real world this can be difficult to maintain. The amount of space will invite interlopers. In those situations, follow a car that you can see past, and look at more than just the car you're following.

aidenn03• 2 years ago

IANAL, but you are never allowed to intentionally cause a collision; if you slam on your breaks when someone is tailgating you, with the intent of causing them to hit you, my understanding is that it's your fault.

stouset• 2 years ago

I check my mirror to see if I'm likely to get hit from behind if I brake hard.

I do this too. In fact, if I need to brake suddenly, I initially over-brake. I then check the rear-view while easing off slightly.

By over-braking I have some extra room to coast forward if the following car is still approaching too quickly. And my hope is that the initial more rapid deceleration causes the person behind to react more quickly and strongly than otherwise.

It also hedges for me in the event that I misjudged the severity or if the person in front brakes increasingly aggressively. By going harder early I can always ease off if it’s unwarranted. But in the event the car in front hits something or otherwise slams to a halt, I’ll be better off than if I initially braked more conservatively.

aidenn03• 2 years ago

and then vehicle B hits vehicle A from behind. Some people think that the following vehicle is always at fault, but this isn't strictly true (IAAL).

How not strictly true is it? My understanding in California is that unless you can demonstrate intent to cause a collision you'll be found at fault for rear-ending someone, which is pretty close to "strictly true."

gnicholas10• 2 years ago

If the lead car hit the brakes for no reason, he has been negligent and would be liable. This could happen if you hit the wrong pedal, or presumably if your AEB system malfunctioned and thought it saw someone in the road. It might also apply if a squirrel ran into the road and you mashed the brakes to give it time to scamper away. Most people would say it is negligent to create a substantial risk of human bodily injury to avoid the possible/likely death of a squirrel.

nkrisc2• 2 years ago

Law aside, you should be driving as though the car in front of you is a brick wall. That is to say, whatever the distance is between you and them it should be greater than the stopping distance of your car to a dead stop at your current speed.

gnicholas10• 2 years ago

If you drive this way in many parts of CA (especially LA), you will be cut off by a never-ending stream of vehicles. All of this lane-changing, happening right in front of you, will put you at more risk of collision than simply following at the distance that most cars do.

EDIT: I’m curious if this is downvoted by people who have driven in LA and disagree, or people who speculate that this isn’t the case.

pinkmuffinere2• 2 years ago

What does IAAL stand for? Is it “I Am A Lawyer”? If so, this strikes me as a _really_ fascinating take

instagib• 2 years ago

According to my defensive driving course, minimum 4 second follow distance and 1 additional second for additional factors such as towing, tiredness, night/rainy conditions, and several others.

I think it was NSC who did the certification. https://www.nsc.org/safety-training/defensive-driving

ssl-36• 2 years ago

There's a problem with driving like this.

The whole time that a driver is checking their mirror(s) to look behind them, attempting to ward off a crash that they cannot actually control, and that may not even have the potential to happen, they're NOT slowing down for the real observed conditions ahead of them that DO warrant slowing down or stopping for and that they can control.

I mean: Suppose a driver is going down the road at 25MPH and sees a kid run into the street chasing a ball, necessitating a hard stop.

Which of the following should the driver do?

  A) Stop.  Hard.  Now.  Remove as much kinetic energy from the problem as possible, as soon as possible.
  B) Sound the horn and proceed through the kid; the kid should know better and Darwinism is more important than anything else.
  C) Look around, check mirrors, and spend some time (while still travelling at 25MPH) attempting to triage whether it is better to hit the kid, run off the side of road, switch to F1 mode and neatly drive around all moving obstacles, stop hard, or do something else?

The only correct answer here is A. It is the driver's job to avoid running into people, and to stay on the road, and to remain in control of their own vehicle, and braking sooner is more effective at accomplishing this than braking later is.

(This applies to the drivers of any cars that may be seen in the rearview mirror, too: It's their job to avoid hitting the car in front of them even if it is suddenly stopping, and to never follow so closely that this would ever be a problem for them to begin with.)

toast06• 2 years ago

Usually you can do things in this order:

a) brake hard b) observe forward and rearward c) modulate brake application as appropriate d) go to b

Sometimes you might add steering inputs. Depends on the situation. It doesn't take long to go from 25 mph to 0 mph though, so you may not have time to loop.

gnicholas10• 2 years ago

The whole time that a driver is checking their mirror(s) to look behind them, attempting to ward off a crash that they cannot actually control

I didn't suggest that someone drive around with their eyes on their mirror the whole time. I only pointed out that before hard braking, I will check my mirror at the same time. If a kid ran into the street, I'd brake hard regardless since the consequence of a forward collision is terrible.

You'll notice the scenario I described above, which is much more common than kids running into the street, is a light turning yellow. Your hypo with stylized answer choices is one that anyone would pass with flying colors, and it's disingenuous to suggest that someone posing my question would "look around, check mirrors, and spend some time attempting to triage".

If someone poses a common dilemma with a balancing of harms, it's facile to respond with a clear-cut hypo and then make it sound like the person wouldn't know what to do in that circumstance.

tacticalturtle• 2 years ago

Not sure if the WSJ article covers this (paywall), but the rule also forbids “vehicles to be equipped with a manual control whose sole function is the deactivation of the AEB system.”

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2024-04/final-ru...

I know on a population-wide level these technologies probably make a appreciable difference and save lives, but having experienced several “false” activations while exiting the highway into the sun, I don’t think I can ever trust the technology for my own use.

teeray3• 2 years ago

Ugh, this also probably means it will throw a code if you try to thwart it by disabling the sensors.

HeatrayEnjoyer• 2 years ago

I would always expect a prominent code when any safety sensor fails.

Overtonwindow• 2 years ago

Now I want to manually override it!!

toast06• 2 years ago

the rule also forbids “vehicles to be equipped with a manual control whose sole function is the deactivation of the AEB system.”

That seems unreasonable. It's nice to have a button to turn off these kinds of things, individually. But as written, that seems to be against separate buttons to turn off aeb and lane keeping, but you could have one button to turn off both. I'd rather have more buttons.

My experience with AEB has been good, but other people report issues, better for them to easily be able to turn it off if it doesn't work for them, IMHO. Unless NHTSA is going to require debugging and tuning and etc to be easily accessible and magically fast.

Stratoscope• 2 years ago

https://archive.is/jDdT8

Carmakers File Challenge to Parts of New Automatic-Braking Rule

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