Why APL Is Still Cool

http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Why-APL-is-Still-Cool

by protomyth • 14 years ago

52 28 14 years ago

ianbishop• 14 years ago

I've always found APL really intriguing. A professor of mine told me about how one of his students used to be able to solve ACM competition problems incredibly fast by simply not having to type very much. There are some insane videos on youtube of people solving problems in APL [1].

But, you know - it's write once, read.. never again.

[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xAKttWgP4

spitfire• 14 years ago

Give Mathematica a shot. If you can read mathematics you can read Mathematica.

fusiongyro• 14 years ago

Check out J. There are a few inconsistencies in APL that are remedied in J, though you lose out on the "cool" non-ASCII operators.

http://jsoftware.com/

silentbicycle3• 14 years ago

It's not that hard to read, it's just dense.

I can read k, which is similarly dense, but limited to ASCII. You may need to read it a bit more slowly, like math, but it is readable. (I can't read Thai, either, but that doesn't make it unreadable.)

jasonwatkinspdx2• 14 years ago

Everyone should read "Notation as a Tool of Thought" by Iverson:

http://www.jdl.ac.cn/turing/pdf/p444-iverson.pdf

APL was originally designed as a uniform mathematical notation. It was only implemented as a programming language some time later. I don't think classic APL has a future, but there are ideas there worth learning.

agumonkey• 14 years ago

Strongly reminiscent of Lisp. Wishful ideas brought to reality.

jasonwatkinspdx2• 14 years ago

I think we need more of this. Crazy niche languages that are unafraid and unashamed of to be ambitious and novel in paradigm.

We have plenty of choices for minor syntax tweaks or extensions of OO and ML. We need to get brave again.

protomyth• 14 years ago

another link if the original doesn't work for you: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.94.4...

robomartin3• 14 years ago

I learned APL in college and used it professionally for about eight years. I really enjoyed the language. Once you know it well enough it creates a very interesting flow condition. You are able to focus on the problem rather than the mechanics of solving it. It's hard to describe but you definitely feel the difference when going from APL to something like C, Forth or Lisp.

One of the huge problems with APL back then was that workspaces (the memory and resource sandbox your work is constrained to) were limited in size. The other was the trouble you had to go through in the early days to be able to see and print the character set. On early IBM PC versions you had to change the character generator ROM. You also had to buy very specific printers for which you could buy APL print heads (for example, IBM Selectric).

Today these issues are gone and workspaces are large enough to tackle the vast majority of problems.

There is, however, in my opinion, a serious problem with APL today: It is too expensive.

Yes, there are low cost or even free APL's, but the ones you want will run you $1,000 to $2,000 per seat. That's ridiculous. If there's a language that would have benefited from FOSS, this is it. I strongly believe that APL adoption would be far wider today if it had a strong FOSS offering.

The other issue is that, probably because it didn't go FOSS, the language didn't evolve into OO. I think it needs to. It also needs a few additional mutations to make it easier to work with and deploy. APL for the web, as a wild thought, could be a very interesting idea. The compression of code would be magnificent to see.

I haven't used APL in quite some time but would jump on it if it made sense. Back in the day I used APL for projects ranging from robotics, to business databases, DNA sequencing and astronomical calculations. It was fun.

T_S_3• 14 years ago

Morgan Stanley used a variant of APL called A+. It was used quite extensively in parts of the firm. They open-sourced it a while back. http://www.aplusdev.org/

robomartin3• 14 years ago

Probably a great internal tool at Morgan Stanley. I haven't heard of anyone outside of them using it seriously, but I could be wrong.

gtani• 14 years ago

I don't remember details, but my colleagues at Merrill Lynch used to say you could look at somebody's APL code and tell if they came from Sharp (Toronto), IBM (Yorktown Heights or San Jose CA), STSC or Morgan Stanley.

In APL2, the equivalent to a lisp map was "each", it was a colon rotated to be horizontal and superscript. We used to have "each" contests, I always got destroyed.

And one of my (distant) friends got a summer job in high school, working for Iverson in Yorktown Heights, writing APL.

sethish• 14 years ago

What about J? J was developed Ken Iverson (the creator of APL) as a successor to APL that replaced unicode characters with two character equivalents. It's not greatly publicized, but the latest J was released under the GPLv3 (http://www.jsoftware.com/source.htm).

robomartin3• 14 years ago

With all due respect to Mr. Iverson, whom I had the pleasure of meeting at an international APL conference many moons ago, I think J went in the wrong direction.

Part of the power of APL is in the symbolic representation of concepts. The symbols are important. They form a language in more than one sense. Replacing them with ASCII/unicode equivalents rips the guts out of the language.

Here's a thought experiment: Take mathematic expressions and replace every symbol with two or three character ASCII (or whatever) equivalents. The integral symbol might become "integ"; the root symbol become "root"; first, second and third derivative periods become "der1", "der2" and "der3"; and so on. What have you accomplished? Well, at the very least you've ruined the superbly expressive nature of mathematics through agreed upon special symbols.

One could do the same with music and the results would be exactly the same.

In general terms, I believe that we don't need to go in that direction. We need to search for and find the programming equivalent of music and math notation.

If you've ever looked at some VHDL code you have seen an example of just how ugly this can get. Whenever I do FPGA work I use Verilog, which feels very much like C.

Defining a register in Verilog looks something like this:

  reg [0:7] my_register;

In VHDL:

  my_register: std_logic_vector(7 downto 0);

It's been a while since I touched VHDL so this example could be off. I don't remember if you have to add IN, OUT or INOUT to the declaration.

The point though is that one (Verilog) is compact and to the point whereas the other (VHDL) beats the crap out of you with unnecessary verbosity. My definition of "unnecessary" is that, if the exact same result can be had without the extra stuff then there is absolutely no reason for it to exist. The entire VHDL language is like that, this is just one example. If I remember correctly, there was one thing that was nice about VHDL way-back-when which had to do with parametric generation of code. Later Verilog implementations added these capabilities without making you feel that you were typing a novel.

The long post is to say that notation is important. It is a tool for thought as much as it provides expressive power. J, in my humble opinion, went the wrong way.

CUR10US• 14 years ago

kona

I use it as my shell.

silentbicycle3• 14 years ago

By which they mean Kona (https://github.com/kevinlawler/kona), an open-source implementation of a K-like language.

Any commands in its repl that are prefixed with "\ " are sent as-is to system(3).

T_S_3• 14 years ago

To me the biggest lesson from APL is to always try to manipulate the largest data structure you can your hands on. For example, don't think about for-loops, think about 'map'. When you can do that, life is good.

The limitations of the language that I saw (in the mid 90s) were around interoperability. Devs saw it as esoteric and steered toward something more 'marketable' like C++ and later Java. The extensive use of memory mapped files for persistence made it 'viral' in terms of building apps to access data. The language (or more likely the library support) was great for pricing algorithms but not so great for business applications filled with corner cases. As I recall these were reasons it was phased out at Morgan Stanley.

bwanab• 14 years ago

It was used heavily in the fixed income division. I was there during the phase out and among the A-Plus developers there was an "...out of my cold, dead hands" mentality. They (and there were a lot of them) really loved it.

T_S_3• 14 years ago

Very true. And a few remaining A+ devs ended up with high job security since there were some systems they were very slow to redo and they were afraid something might break.

evincarofautumn• 14 years ago

It’s certainly a cool language, but this presentation doesn’t really convey it very well. When you want to show me how a language is useful, I absolutely want to hear the boring details, examples of how to manipulate census data, how to serve a web page, and all that. But when you want to show me how a language is cool, I really just want to see gimmicks: neat tricks you can do with the array operations, ways of composing things that are easy in APL that wouldn’t even occur to you in another language, that sort of thing.

I actually got the impression, from the way that Morten put it, that APL is not a terribly good environment for collaboration. It seems best suited to a single person having a “conversation”, if you will, with the APL environment—not necessarily with other developers. I’ve never written anything in APL, let alone in a team, so I could be way off. But then again, if it’s so productive, I’m not sure how much it actually matters if only one guy is working on the software at a time.

Maybe software is only built collaboratively because the tools aren’t powerful enough to let a single developer manage all the complexity. If you have better tools, perhaps you simply don’t need to work in a team.

sunkencity• 14 years ago

I recently bought "APL an interactive approach" and read it. It seems that most of the good stuff from APL is already present in modern languages, and better when it's lazy. The OO stuff in APL looks kind of crufty. Still it's a wonderful fascinating language. In the age of mature open-source it feels very old fashioned with the expensiveness of a decent implementation. Btw, this is a fantastic tv segment from days of yore "The Origins of APL - 1974": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kUQWuK1L4w

sdellysse• 14 years ago

I may be being a bit stupid here, but how do you advance the slides on that link? I've never been able to figure out how to use InfoQ presentations. I must be doing something wrong...

gosub• 14 years ago

I don't know if there's a way to advance them manually, but they are in sync with the video. You should able to read them seeking through the timeline.

Why APL Is Still Cool

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