Nitrogen dioxide exposure due to gas and propane combustion by U.S. stoves

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adm8680

by rntn • 2 years ago

30 66 2 years ago

chasebank2• 2 years ago

I installed a high CFM hood for my stove, mainly for searing on cast iron and dealing with the smoke, but I wonder if this helps with the NO2 exposure mentioned in the article. A high CFM hood was something I never knew I needed until I had one. It's fantastic.

wffurr2• 2 years ago

Maybe. Probably. The article is a bit mixed on range hoods and doesn’t look at high CFM ones specifically, but it stands to reason it would help.

“ We found that an outside-venting range hood reduced peak NO2 concentrations in some cases (Fig. 3B) but that some outside-venting range hoods are ineffective at reducing NO2 concentrations (Fig. 3C). Across a subset of five randomly selected homes, we found that outside-venting hoods reduced hour-averaged kitchen NO2 concentrations by between 10 and 70% (mean reduction in concentration = 35%, n = 5; fig. S15). This result is consistent with prior work assessing the efficacy of installed range hoods, which found that most hoods operating in homes have capture efficiencies well below 70%”

Addresses typical range hoods, not necessarily high CFM quality ones.

“ people with a 75% capture efficiency outside-venting hood who use it every time they cook are exposed to 70% less long-term stove-attributable NO2 than average. The effect on long-term stove-attributable NO2 of opening and closing windows (one window modeled in the kitchen and at least three additional windows, opened or closed all at once; see Materials and Methods) was comparable to the average benefit of using a range hood (Fig. 5).”

Implies higher quality (capture >75%) range hoods help significantly but so does opening a window.

uranium2• 2 years ago

Efficacy is also going to vary with usage. I've got a 900CFM fan, but I can still smoke up the kitchen pretty badly if I sear on the front burner, even with the fan on high. However, if I use the back burner, even with the fan on low, the air stays pretty clear.

drewcon• 2 years ago

I couldn’t see I’d they reported cfm.

I have a 1200 cfm good and there is no chance anything below has any chance of escaping.

loeg3• 2 years ago

Even the quoted excerpt shows they are effective? But maybe less effective than you might want ideally?

Implies higher quality (capture >75%) range hoods help significantly but so does opening a window.

Opening four or more windows, which is a lot.

loeg3• 2 years ago

Yes, it probably helps, especially if you crack a window. The article claims 3000 sq ft dwellings do better than 800 sq ft dwellings -- this will be entirely due to the concentration of the gases. A hood that expels interior air and draws in outside air can't hurt.

bluedino• 2 years ago

My great grandmother used to cook right on the edge of the fireplace, in cast iron Dutch ovens. My grandmother cooked on top of a wood stove, and when I was a kid we heated the house with a wood stove in the center of the house.

I wonder how those all compare.

coffeebeqn2• 2 years ago

Wood burning generates a lot more particulates in the air than burning gas. So likely much worse

gpm• 2 years ago

On the flip side fireplaces uniformly have chimneys (and wood stoves almost always do) in order to get those particulates out of the house. Which doubles as getting the gasses generated out of the house.

I'm not an expert but I'd guess that at least with regards to NO2 that made up for the less clean burning.

hagbard_c2• 2 years ago

I cook on a wood stove and heat the house with wood. The only time the stove emits anything into the house is when I light it and the chimney is cold - which doesn't happen that often but can happen if I have not used the thing for more than a day or 2. I built that chimney myself, it is solid brick and does not use vermiculite-insulated liners - i.e. it is built according to the 'old' standards where the chimney itself functions as a heat buffer for the top floor (which is why I built it that way). Given a warm chimney there is more than enough drag to keep combustion products from escaping even when I lift the pan off the fire.

It also helps that the stove and its neighbouring electric companion (which I use as a storage area for pans) is built under a large fume hood which ends in a flue pipe in that same chimney. The warmer the chimney, the more drag in the fume hood. There is no fan and none is needed given a warm chimney.

Of course all this only works if there is enough ventilation into the house since both the stove as well as the fume hood need incoming air to work. This is not a problem in our 17th century farm house, even with all the windows closed there is enough air coming in to keep all fires burning. As long as I keep the chimney and the stoves clean - I sweep it once or twice per year depending on the type of wood I burn - they do their job without fouling up the house.

moooo992• 2 years ago

Having bought an induction powered stove recently, I am genuinely surprised by the popularity of gas powered stoves. It’s just so incredibly efficient and fun to cook with induction stoves

wffurr2• 2 years ago

I enjoy cooking on one now that I am used to how fast it heats up.

The thing I like most are the levels of safety from the toddler- there’s a “lock” feature on the control panel that disables the controls. And if I forget that and he turns it on, nothing happens unless I also left something ferromagnetic on the cooktop. I haven’t tested yet what would happen with my keys or a fork but it could be good to know.

lotsofpulp2• 2 years ago

The vast majority of people have never experienced an induction range. They would also need to buy new cookware, and/or install a high voltage electric line to their kitchen (could easily be a $1k expense).

On top of this, gas is cheaper than electricity, and gas ranges are cheaper than induction ranges.

coffeebeqn2• 2 years ago

All of my cookwear works just the same on gas and induction? Everything from cast iron to steel pans to Teflon pans. What wouldn’t work?

moooo992• 2 years ago

I’m by not stretch a cookware enthusiasts. But everything except one piece I bought over the past five years supported induction without me paying any attention to it whatsoever.

As far as costs are concerned, I have no clue. Since I am not in the US, basically every home here in Germany has the electric wiring required for an induction stove.

kemiller20022• 2 years ago

Having used a plethora of stoves over my life, I can absolutely say I am convinced gas stoves are on their way out. I have not seen anything that an induction stove cannot do as well as a gas one. Even commercial establishments are switching to it. Will there be changes in how to use if effectively? Of course. That's to be expected. I can't see how the liability of an open flame won't outweigh changing.

asguy• 2 years ago

I have not seen anything that an induction stove cannot do as well as a gas one.

Char peppers for peeling.

BobaFloutist• 2 years ago

But what if I do all my cooking in aluminum woks?? What then?

cjbgkagh2• 2 years ago

A trend I don’t see people noticing is how much better and cheaper electronics is getting in recent years and how much that will change the world. Cheaper induction cooktops being just one of many examples, going from a luxury item to an everyday item is enough to largely squeeze gas out. I don’t like to see it being done via legislation, better off leaving it up to individuals and insurance. Let it die a natural death without making it social signal.

O5vYtytb4• 2 years ago

The reliability of mid grade appliances is trash. You can expect a new range to maybe last 10 years on average. An electric/induction stove will be so costly to repair you might as well buy a new one. A gas stove has much less complexity, and in a pinch you could just light it with a lighter.

That said I'm looking to buy an induction stove

sparrish• 2 years ago

Gas stoves continue to work when the electricity has failed (as it does sometimes, especially during storms). It can be days before electricity is restored after a bad storm.

PopAlongKid• 2 years ago

"Popularity" isn't the right word. Most kitchens have the energy source for the stove locked in a time of construction,, and it would be non-trivial remodeling job to change it. It's not like people go out shopping for gas vs. electric stoves every five years, like they do for different cars.

kemiller20022• 2 years ago

Truthfully, that's what we did. It's not that difficult to run a 220v. You can even cap off a gas line and run in it it's place. The biggest problem you might have is needing to rewire part of your electrical box to make room.

mulderc3• 2 years ago

People shop for cars every five years? That is more like every 15 years in my family.

O5vYtytb4• 2 years ago

We're remodeling a rental and having a gas stove is a big plus versus alternatives. Electric is poor for cooking and induction requires new pots and pans.

benzible• 2 years ago

New battery-backed induction stoves from Channing Copper and Impulse Labs are meant to eliminate the need for an electrical upgrade...

https://www.batterytechonline.com/trends/why-a-battery-assis...

One barrier to their widespread adoption, however, has been that they require a 220-volt electrical hookup, which means for most buyers the cost of an electrical panel upgrade on top of the price of the stove itself. But now a startup called Channing Street Copper Company has created a battery-assisted induction stove that can be plugged into a standard 120V outlet.

Shog92• 2 years ago

Price is coming down, but still much higher than standard electric. Standard electric being somewhere between annoying (open coil) and infuriating (glass top) to cook on when compared to even very inexpensive gas ranges.

So most folks moving into a place with "contractor-grade" appliances already installed are going to experience a very functional gas range or a barely usable electric.

Most folks don't replace appliances just for the hell of it.

namibj2• 2 years ago

If you spend over 100$ per hob for a basic induction stove you're being ripped off.

timthorn• 2 years ago

At least in the UK, almost all the induction hobs on the market have touch controls. Not having a knob per ring is a massive issue for some users.

wzdd• 2 years ago

Not sure what you meant by "some users" but as someone without physical disabilities it's an issue for me. They can't be used with wet hands, can't be used if they've been splashed (which is certainly a choice on something designed to be next to pots full of simmering hot liquid), and have truly bizarre firmware behind them -- for example, if I'm using two elements and am finished with one, it's quicker to turn the entire hob off and on again and re-energise one element than it is to turn an individual element off. I'm really enjoying induction over gas, but the "easy to clean" aspect is way oversold. Bring back knobs!

blindriver• 2 years ago

California has the second highest electricity prices in the US. I’m paying $0.42/kWh and up to $0.53/kWh. Paying for more electricity is non-negotiable.

_fizz_buzz_• 2 years ago

You probably run an AC. Electricity your induction stove would use is negligible. i.e. you probably use somewhere around 10-15 kWh per month for cooking.

NelsonMinar• 2 years ago

Induction burners have thermostats! You can set one to a specific temperature and it will hold it. So much more precise than "medium low heat" for a gas stove.

citrin_ru• 2 years ago

1. If a home already has a gas stove it would take some money to get it disconnected/removed and then you need to spend money to buy a new induction stove. 2. Per kWth gas is significantly cheaper (on average) so gas stove likely cheaper to run despite lower efficiency. 3. Cheap induction stoves have at least these flaws: touch controls (which go mad when water is spilled), pulsing power control - on low level it looks like 1 sec boiling every 5 seconds instead of simmering.

I recently bough a counter-top induction hob and the cheapest option with physical controls I could find was 5x more expensive than one I've bought (which doesn't make me hate touch controls less).

zer00eyz• 2 years ago

For most day to day tasks in a home kitchen modern induction is fine.

I would like an induction range, and a pair of professional gas burners next to them.

Below folks are talking about charing peppers and wok cooking. Candidly these are two places where a gas range stands out. A flat bottom wok sucks, and I have torches but not one that is as complete burning as a range. From smores, to toasting tortillas to power outages gas some advantages!

While im doing the planing I have been wondering if I could get a 220 outlet and a UK plug for a proper kitchen kettle. What other counter top appliances would benefit from extra power?

I also want to keep the high flow gas line for outdoor grill/griddle combo because never having to buy propane again sounds like an upgrade.

giardini• 2 years ago

I live in a coastal region that has hurricanes, ice storms and tornadoes. Gas stoves work during these storms, electric stoves often don't.

If you force me to use an electric stove then I will buy a wood-fired stove and use it. I will burn the (free) wood from trees downed by the storms and the (free) wood from homes downed by tornadoes. You will eat my pine resin smoke the remaining days of your life and I will give you my stove when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

WaitWaitWha• 2 years ago

Funding: This work was supported by HT LLC grant 1255423-1-UAGYN.

Can someone help me find who is "HT LLC"? Just attempting some cursory due diligence, but I was unsuccessful locating them.

I found one HT, LLC as "Electric Supplies Manufacturers" at BBB, but I want to make sure it is the correct one.

https://www.bbb.org/us/ca/saratoga/profile/electric-supplies...

josehill• 2 years ago

There is a strange lack of journalistic curiosity about the funding source behind this study and similar ones that have been making headlines over the last couple of years.

HT LLC is the High Tide Foundation. They're an advocacy group focused on climate change. You might recall a similar study in the headlines a year or so ago. That one focused on gas stoves and benzene, instead of NO2. It was from the same research group and likewise was funded by the High Tide Foundation.

https://www.hightidefoundation.org

greentxt• 2 years ago

If people would cook outside a lot of health problems would be remedied. In most of the US for most of the year this simple and cheap to do.

But we put our cooking facilities indoor to cater to our laziness, at the expense of our children’s health. A good propane grill can be acquired for $100 and is much cheaper, much much cheaper in California especially, to fuel. Why we aren’t all cooking outdoors is a testament to our lazy myopic thinking. Sadly the authors miss this point, to the further detriment of public health.

Nitrogen dioxide exposure due to gas and propane combustion by U.S. stoves

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