Apple rejected Flattr… and it’s not the end

Flattr is fundamentally a web company, competing with Google's +1 button and Facebook's Like button more than than Paypal donations, even if users are spending real money. This is just a potential new arena for Flattr, and not their core business.

jmonegro2• 14 years ago

In this case, where donations would happen with one tap, I think it is sensible for Apple to require breaking the UX so as to avoid unintended donations by the users, or malicious implementation by the developers.

sch1zo3• 14 years ago

I think you should look at how flattr works.

You set a fixed amount of money each month which then gets slit up between all things you choose to support that month.

robmcm• 14 years ago

You could still have the jump button on a game hooked up to flattr your app, taking more of the users monies.

It's a valid point.

bilbo0s2• 14 years ago

I'm not very big on Apple practices, but I have to agree with you here. This seems like the sort of tool that can be used to do some really shady things. Which, in and of itself, is not a problem. The thing is, when money 'goes missing' from user accounts, they tend to blame either Apple or the App company as opposed to themselves for not paying attention to what they were doing. Apple has been burned in the media by things like that before. IE - Kids racking up thousands of dollars of purchases because mom authorized one, and then let the kid go play on her ipad.

In this case, this seems reasonable. Unless I'm missing something, this is not the sort of thing you want being easy for novice users.

sch1zo3• 14 years ago

I think you missed the point that you set a fixed amount of money to use each month. There's no way flattr will use more than the chosen monthly amount.

Siimteller5• 14 years ago

1. User needs to connect their Instacast with Flattr via OAuth.

2. Monthly budget cycle means that even if it comes to unauthorized usage the loss is something that Flattr can easily cover.

3. Any user complaints will quickly surface the possible scammer and since payouts are not immediate it’s easy to freeze accounts.

So far Flattr has a track record of 0 scamming, phishing or fraud, knock on wood.

Alex3917• 14 years ago

Also, what happens when donations turn into plums? Apple may see the donations concept as a trojan horse, which it most likely is.

lazerwalker• 14 years ago

I agree, but I think there is a valuable distinction between making all purchases pop up a basic modal dialog that requires a second tap (the standard Apple in-app purchase flow) and requiring donations to load either a UIWebView which requires time to load a page that requests confirmation or to operate via SMS, which requires fully exiting the application to go to the Messages app. One is minimally intrusive, the other not so much.

jmonegro2• 14 years ago

If I read correctly, Apple will not allow the donation UI to be shown modally through an UIWebView, but instead requires that the donation be made through the Safari app.

idspispopd• 14 years ago

It's also larger than that, Apple's involvement isn't just a cash grap for a 30% slice.

It's because Apple want both visibility, and the power to refund customers who make legitimate complaints. Currently anything purchased inside an app can be refunded by Apple: music, videos, software, anything. The user's account password is needed whenever they wish to buy something.

The moment that is externalised Apple have no visibility or control over the payments, how they are made and what frequency they are occurring. They could inadvertently be publishing an app that tricks users into donating money, or money that goes to inappropriate use.

By requiring the user to switch to the browser where they'll need to either enter their CC details or account credentials is a nice way for both Apple to distance itself, and for consumers to understand that it's external to the app store ecosystem.

DanI-S• 14 years ago

> We understand that directing your user outside of your app may not be the user experience you prefer to offer your users. However it is a common experience in a variety of iOS apps.

That doesn't seem like the kind of uncompromising approach to fantastic user experience that has made Apple so successful.

ge0rg• 14 years ago

Except that exactly this approach is going to make Apple more successful if Apple apps are the only ones allowed to have uncompromised UX.

Dove• 14 years ago

You know, I feel like iOS and Android are recapitulating the Mac and PC wars of the '90s. Not exactly, mind you, but it feels like the same struggle between niche beauty and popular pragmatism. Between a controlled experience with a unifying vision, and plug-and-play user freedom.

One major difference is that iOS enjoys an advantage in apps that Mac never had in software. I think that could change, though. There is a positive feedback loop in which the most popular platform attracts developers and hence has the most software and so people buy that platform. I don't perceive that system to be in a stable state at the moment, much like it wasn't in, say, '88. People routinely develop for both platforms. And who knows, perhaps that will be the steady state answer this time; we're a lot better at abstraction than we used to be. But I think it's possible that Android could become popular enough (and perhaps Apple drive enough developers away), that the whole thing could pass a tipping point.

What I'm saying is, I don't think the beauty of the apps is the most powerful force in play here. I think the existence of apps is a lot more powerful. At least, that's what I think happened last time beauty fought pragmatism.

lucisferre• 14 years ago

You mean like the app store? Or iCal? Nothing is blemish free.

signalsignal• 14 years ago

I think Instacast, and maybe Flattr as well, should boycott Apple and instead focus on the Android platforms starting with Google Play and Amazon's Appstore. Otherwise they are helping to perpetuate and even reward this kind of behavior.

Does anyone have the link for Instacast for Android?

slantyyz3• 14 years ago

I agree, developers need to vote with their feet if they want any chance to influence Apple's policies.

RyanMcGreal• 14 years ago

Year after year, this 2003 essay by Tim Bray continues to be true:

> I’ve been following some discussions about the future of software applications, and a phrase that came up in my dinner with Robb Beal has been echoing in my mind.What it comes down to is this: if you want to develop software, you can build for the Web and/or Unix and/or OSS platforms; or alternatively, you can be a sharecropper. Your choice, but I think it’s an easy one. Especially since the users out there want you to do the right thing.

> What Robb actually said, in a conversation about Mac software outputs like Ranchero and Watson and his own Spring, was that building for the Apple OS feels like being a sharecropper.

http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/07/12/WebsThePla...

Cushman• 14 years ago

What would it mean to boycott a company which has already refused to market their app?

Siimteller5• 14 years ago

Instacast doesn’t have an Android version but there’s Podkicker Pro with Flattr integration on Android that does pretty much the same.

mgkimsal• 14 years ago

"We understand that directing your user outside of your app may not be the user experience you prefer to offer your users. However it is a common experience in a variety of iOS apps."

So... it's crappy for everyone across the board. Take comfort in that!

recoiledsnake2• 14 years ago

Except for apps that pay 30% to Apple. That's a key distinction.

glimcat• 14 years ago

My big unanswered question going into the article was "What the crud is Flattr and why should I care." Starting your posts off with a brief introduction of who you are is often a good idea.

Flattr is a micropayment system. You pay them a monthly subscription, then Like(tm) a bunch of stuff on the internet. They split up whatever portion of your monthly sub that they don't keep among the places you tag. Apple presumably flagged the app which integrated Flattr due to their well-known policies about in-app payments.

CookWithMe2• 14 years ago

> Starting your posts off with a brief introduction of who you are is often a good idea.

IF most of your readers don't know what you are doing. I think this was written for their community (not HN), so most of them know what Flattr is about.

Also, they have "About Flattr" in the footer - not very prominently placed, but still find-able.

lukifer• 14 years ago

It isn't just Flattr: I encounter this issue regularly when being linked to startup blogs. Having one sentence or one link on every page that succinctly describes what you do just seems like a good idea. The web is made for linking, and not everybody will walk through the front door.

Siimteller5• 14 years ago

Good point, added to the beginning of the post.

jazzychad• 14 years ago

Also please add a link to your homepage somewhere in the blog's header. Too many company blogs omit this most important link!

radimm• 14 years ago

Rejected by Apple and the 'Paypal suxx' on their desk. Tough luck

sparknlaunch12• 14 years ago

Unlucky you have been curtailed by Apple for now but sure you can rework your model to fit within what is allowable. Keep persevering as you seem to have built a useful application.

Siimteller5• 14 years ago

Thanks, as said in the post - we’ll keep at it as the only way to find out what’s cool with Apple and what’s not is to submit stuff to them and hope to have a constructive dialog.

jcmhn• 14 years ago

I think we can safely say Apple has dropped their party manners and shown the knives.

Unfortunately android is the only possible competitor I see, and the carriers have pretty much guaranteed that android won't be any freer for users or developers.

tzs• 14 years ago

OT design suggestion: when you have a corporate blog, have a prominent link somewhere on the top that goes to your main site.

recoiledsnake2• 14 years ago

Would the app have been approved if Apple was given 30% of the proceeds? I am guessing yes.

taligent4• 14 years ago

Would the app have been approved if they had followed Apple's guidelines? I am guessing yes.

duaneb• 14 years ago

Isn't that the same thing?

rmATinnovafy• 14 years ago

I'll wait this one out to see if the issue snowballs. Either way, this could turn out to be a positive PR tactic. God luck to the flattr team.

Apple rejected Flattr… and it’s not the end

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