Linus Torvalds on the Google vs Oracle verdict

https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/TZsT2BP3TDh

by patrickaljord • 14 years ago

218 82 14 years ago

plus.google.com

gouranga• 14 years ago

Having dealt with Oracle, it won't happen like that.

Oracle will throw marketing and lawyers around to hide as much of their failure as possible by threatening other vendors and any dissident opinion.

Oracle has a suitably large reality distortion field.

einhverfr• 14 years ago

I am having trouble seeing the difference between your opinion and that of Linux, to be honest.

huhtenberg2• 14 years ago

*Linus

ionforce• 14 years ago

Can Linus ever not sound like a pompous jackass?

novalis• 14 years ago

I think so ionforce, you are just projecting heavily. I seen a 60 minutes piece with him and in it, he sounded perfectly reasonable.

koeselitz4• 14 years ago

I wouldn't call it 'projection' necessarily. Linus Torvalds can seem like a pompous jackass sometimes, it's true. But it's useful to keep in mind the context of this comment of his. Linus is a guy who spent many, many years fighting an unusually and unnecessarily difficult battle to prevent something he created from being coopted and stolen by a copyright troll, SCO. So this is somewhat personal for him.

B-Con• 14 years ago

He speaks very reasonably, it's just his writing style. I think he's one of those people who's choice of written word does not always convey the tone they would have conveyed in person.

And, to be fair, he does intentionally say things in an over-the-top way to be funny, although such statements pretty much always have an element of truth.

trentmb• 14 years ago

Of course he would, he's in person. It's easier to be mean on the internet than in person. Not to mention no one has perfected punching someone through the internet.

runjake• 14 years ago

From the little I do know about Linus, I think it's less pomp and more a mix of some ratio between his style of playful, tongue-in-cheek impishness and anger depending on what kind of day he's having. He's a pretty nice fellow for the most part.

bradwestness2• 14 years ago

He's also constantly inundated with arguments/accusations/requests from idiots. If you ever read through some of his Linux newsletter arguments, you can see why he'd develop a take-no-prisoners style of communicating.

DanBC• 14 years ago

There may be cultural factors at work here.

In England when you say "Hello! How are you?" the answer is almost always "Very well thanks, how about you?", even if the person is not very well. This is considered polite. Other countries find this odd, and consider it lying.

(http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13545386)

pjmlp• 14 years ago

In Portugal it is the same.

People don't really want to know the details how you feel, it is just a way of greeting.

arethuza• 14 years ago

I remember going in for a surgical procedure a few years back and just before the operation a non-British doctor told me "This is really going to hurt" - I was expecting "There may be some slight discomfort", which is the usual British way of saying "This is REALLY going to hurt".

I was quite concerned (i.e. British for "terrified") until they gave me the pre-med Valium.

And yes, it did sting a bit.

jdhzzz• 14 years ago

My grandmother would say: "How are you (not that I give a damn)?".

zdw• 14 years ago

Linus is a bit brusque on a regular basis. Many people in OS design/development tend to be that way (Theo DeRaadt being another).

It's less of someone being a jerk, and more of them being direct and to the point, coupled with a large degree of cynicism.

a3d6g2f75• 14 years ago

And I will take that, if coupled with demonstrated competence and a solid, sensible vision, over being "nice", "accomodating" and "willing to answer questions", every time.

This attitude is not true of all OS developers, though. There are lots who are really even-tempered. But they are also very focused and not necessarily willing to accomodate everyone with a "bright idea".

While it might make the learning curve a bit steeper for mere mortals, I actually believe this is what makes a better OS.

I would be interested to see a "Linux" where Torvalds also controlled the userland. What would it be like?

6ren• 14 years ago

  > When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g.
  > "That is an idiotic thing to say; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 +
  > 1 is 2, not 3."

It's actually more "direct and to the point" to not call someone an idiot, a moron etc. Some other justification for his "brusqueness" is needed, perhaps being opinionated rather than accommodating; another instance of being blunt/pragmatic not precise/academic; a signal of willingness to defend his values for how to run linux (I've seen productive communities fail due to lack of this leadership); demonizing a common enemy to unite your side (e.g. Microsoft, Oracle).

It seems logical to me that abuse isn't necessary; but logic is a poor substitute for actual understanding.

Jach• 14 years ago

Read his family blog, or even better emails on the Linux kernel mailing list, since he's sent quite a lot over the years. Apart from when he calls out someone for being stupid and ugly, he sounds very nice. You'll find many instances where he sounds neither pompous nor mean.

rdtsc• 14 years ago

I can accept one's arrogance and lack of social grace being proportional to their contribution. So Linus in my book can be a total jackass and it would probably still be ok.

In reality I think he is just direct and says exactly what he means.

tsurantino• 14 years ago

I'm more astounded by the fact that Linus is on a social networking site like Google+.

I'm really hoping he makes a Twitter account for his rant-I mean comments :D

bradwestness2• 14 years ago

Google+ seems to have been adopted by a lot of major players in the tech industry. Quite a few notable people post on it pretty regularly, possibly because it's hard to effectively tweet about technology issues in 140 characters.

I'd probably switch to it exclusively too if I could use it to export to Twitter and Facebook.

duaneb• 14 years ago

What's the point of exporting it to twitter/facebook?

kristianc• 14 years ago

>> When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. "That is an idiotic thing to say; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." [1]

HN's own style guide has sound advice for how Linus might shorten his posts to under 140 characters.

[1] http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

SkyMarshal2• 14 years ago

Linus also works at Google. I suspect he'd probably still be exclusive to lkml otherwise.

icebraining• 14 years ago

I'd probably switch to it exclusively too if I could use it to export to Twitter and Facebook.

I don't use it, but for social media you can use IFTTT:

http://ifttt.com/recipes/search?q=google+plus

donniezazen• 14 years ago

I wonder if Google requested him and other major dignitaries to adopt their social network site. Is he on other social networking sites like Facebook?

If you follow the trending, a hugh number of trends are tech related and specific to Linux like #GIMP, #GDriveforlinux. A large number of G+ users seem to be geeks.

lyman• 14 years ago

maybe 140 chars is just not enough for his rant - i mean comments ;)

EternalFury• 14 years ago

Oracle could pull all resources dedicated to the development of Java. Burn the forest to get the Google tree. Drastic and unrealistic, but Ellison doesn't like to lose.

excuse-me3• 14 years ago

Resulting in an improvement in Java for everyone

C/C++ doesn't seem to have done too badly since Bell labs stopped developing it!

huhtenberg2• 14 years ago

> C/C++ doesn't seem to have done too badly since Bell labs stopped developing it!

I wouldn't be so sure about the C++ part ;)

ConstantineXVI• 14 years ago

Keep in mind this started because Google built their own Java implementation from scratch instead of working from the JDK. That said...

a) Java customers tend to also use Oracle DB and Solaris, two other big Oracle products. Revenge on Google can't be worth giving up owning the full stack.

b) Google (perhaps with IBM and Red Hat) would be absolutely delighted to pick up Java development were Oracle to stop working on it; quite the opposite of what Oracle would hope to accomplish.

DigitalSea3• 14 years ago

I don't really care what Linus has to say on the Google vs Oracle verdict, a guy who created one of the worlds most useful operating systems that he doesn't even really contribute to any more who would rather sit on his computer all day ranting about Github's implementation of Git, rant about Linux becoming bloated and now ranting about the Google vs Oracle case.

I get Torvalds is a genius, but with the ending line in his G+ post, "Sometimes I really wish I wasn't always right. It's a curse, I tell you." it sounds like all of those caffeine fuelled late nights have deprived him of vital nutrients, he's nuts nowadays.

I realise everything I just said is a rant, I'm a hypocrite at times.

Side note: anyone else think Linus looks a bit like Nicholas Cage in his Google Plus profile picture?

pyre• 14 years ago

I took his last statement as sarcasm with a hint of hubris.

lobo_tuerto• 14 years ago

Or maybe he is just right. Or can you point otherwise?

DigitalSea3• 14 years ago

He was the one who said he was right, shouldn't Linus be backing up his statements and proving why he thinks he is right instead of the other way around? Haha.

sophacles3• 14 years ago

I'm not sure why you think Linus doesn't really contribute to his operating system anymore. He doesn't really write code, but that's because he's become too busy as a project manager for it - which is a different sort of contribution. Not sure what about this makes you so angry...

Anyway, at least he earned his right to rant about git and linux, I mean, he sort of created them. And regarding Google v Oracle, he is a stakeholder in the verdict - if APIs are copyrightable, there will be people filing suits against linux on the way out of the courtroom.

What did you do to earn your right to rant?

DigitalSea3• 14 years ago

This isn't about Linus not being allowed to rant. I was merely stating that Linus is starting to come across as an old bitter programmer who hates everyone and everything. It's pretty unprofessional for a guy of his stature and influence to go on these ranting tirades, professionals don't air their disdain for things publicly unless there is a valid reason, he just comes across as a jerk regardless of whether or not he's earned the right to do so, it's unprofessional.

If he's project manager for Linux, why was he surprised that that the Linux core is getting bloated? If he's a project manager, shouldn't he be managing the team to unbloat the operating system? I'd hardly call flaming your own team and operating system a contribution. Nothing about this makes me angry, Linus is a genius and he knows it which is why it frustrates me to see a guy like him resort to sometimes school yard words and ways of dealing with things.

Linux itself has already been through what Google has, remember the whole Microsoft debacle? Regardless of the verdict, pretty much every software company that has felt threatened by Linux I'm sure has tried some kind of legal action in some way, shape or form.

I earned my right to rant the day I got an internet connection, which was a very long time ago.

_feda_• 14 years ago

Since when did he create an operting system? Linux is a kernel.

jebblue3• 14 years ago

He is a handsome guy, and right usually, oh yes, I'm straight. Snap. I agree too, I hope Larry grows some wisdom instead of the usual hair he sports. It's bad enough Oracle owns Java already, it should have been IBM IMHO.

bad_user3• 14 years ago

IBM owning Java would have been even worse.

jebblue3• 14 years ago

Maybe, maybe not but they are heavy users of Java, it seems to me like it would have been a good fit.

nextparadigms• 14 years ago

Google should've owned Java. They use it extensively at Google and they also could've had total control over the language for Android. They could've just sold off the other parts of Sun later. Oh well, maybe Oracle wants to sell it now since they realized they can't make billions off it.

jebblue3• 14 years ago

With the excellent work they did with GWT you would think so.

Actually Oracle has done a lot with Java too but this latest thing just wow, at least the courts came out with a logical decision.

beedogs3• 14 years ago

Why the hell haven't shareholders gotten fed up with Ellison yet? These waste-of-time legal junkets he goes on from time to time must be so infuriating.

sgift• 14 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_Corporation

Revenue: US$ 35.6 billion (2011) Operating income: US$ 12.0 billion (2011) Net income: US$ 8.5 billion (2011)

falava• 14 years ago

I'm sad that the only thing I can see is this:

Mobile terms of service

By tapping 'Accept', you agree that Google will use your location in this product and accept the Mobile Terms of Service.

Edit:

After reading the terms and accept...

Using iPhone (nope I'm on iPad) download our app from the store, it's more fun. (no thanks)

Or continue with the standard site. (very small)

And, that last link goes to my home in Google+, not the Linus post.

I have to searh the post again in HN and tap.

The Linus words are funny but not for so much effort.

mrebus• 14 years ago

Got this too. Closed the page in safari and reopened the link. Worked from there. I did click accept for the location and no for the google plus app.

Linus Torvalds on the Google vs Oracle verdict

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