Never struggle to give feedback again

https://read.highgrowthengineer.com/p/never-struggle-to-give-feedback-again

by jordancutler • 2 years ago

49 19 2 years ago

read.highgrowthengineer.com

This is a more broken-down version of the so-called “shit sandwich”.

flax• 2 years ago

A previous coworker-friend who eventually became a manager practiced a shortened version of this, which I called an "open-face shit sandwich". He loved the term and adopted it.

niek_pas• 2 years ago

Imagine your best friend keeps interrupting you when you speak. Would you have a hard time telling them, “Hey, can you stop interrupting me?”

Yes?

moffkalast• 2 years ago

They would soon get demoted to second best friend.

curun1r• 2 years ago

This is missing a few things from the trainings I’ve had on giving feedback, though it has a lot of the good stuff.

For one, it mentions to give positive feedback, but it fails to mention that you should not give that positive feedback at the same time that you’re giving constructive feedback. This gets called the “feedback sandwich” where, to ease the awkwardness of giving constructive feedback, we tend to sandwich it between complimentary feedback. The problem is that people often focus on the stuff that feels good and fail to really hear the constructive part.

Secondly, while it mentions to include the impact, it doesn’t mention the first two parts of good feedback. The model I learned goes by the initialism SBI, for situation, behavior and impact. In X situation, you did Y and it caused Z. You don’t have to format it exactly this way, but having all three components of the feedback is key to making the feedback actionable.

The other thing that’s necessary for great feedback culture is to really understand the concept that “feedback is a gift.” It’s really easy to be defensive or disagree with feedback you hear. But you need to understand that feedback doesn’t represent objective truth, it represents a perspective that you didn’t have before hearing it. As such, it is always a positive to hear, even when it’s critical. You may not agree with the perspective you’re hearing, but simply knowing that the other person feels that way is more information than you had prior to getting the feedback. And having more information is almost always better.

xxr• 2 years ago

This is really helpful advice—thanks for sharing it.

CharlesW• 2 years ago

Off-topic, but if someone from Substack reads this: Please ask your designer to fix <body>'s excessive letter spacing, which really impacts readability as compared to Spectral's normal letter spacing. (If you want to see what it should look like, add "letter-spacing:-0.02em" to <body>.)

elevatedastalt2• 2 years ago

Substack UI is a massive shitshow. I don't know how a page only consisting of text and images can be so laggy. It makes my phone crawl.

elevatedastalt2• 2 years ago

Unfortunately what such analysis ignores is that a lot of this is a function of the person receiving feedback, not the one giving it, and so no matter how you hyper-optimize it, it won't help if the receiver is hell bent on getting upset / offended.

I live in an apartment community and we have assigned parking. Some of these parking spots have pillars next to them so it can be a bit hard to park if the car adjacent to yours isn't parked correctly. I am in one such spot. The guy in the neighboring spot technically parks correctly since it's within the lines, but the spots are somewhat narrow, and if he leaves no padding, then it becomes tricky for me to park my car since I have a pillar on the other side. On the other hand, he has a compact car and plenty of space on the other side.

After a few weeks of struggling to avoid the pillar, I left a polite note on his car requesting him to please leave a bit more padding on the right side if possible. I even acknowledged that he wasn't parking incorrectly, and that it would just make my life much easier if he could park just as bit to the left within his spot.

He left back a rude note on my car, basically asking me to pound sand and to not bother him and he could park anywhere he wanted as long as it was within the lines and to go talk to the leasing office if I didn't like my spot.

What do you do to difficult folks like these?

EligibleDecoy• 2 years ago

This obviously doesn’t help your situation but there are a few toxic personality traits that I would not hesitate to remove from a team. “Cannot take constructive criticism” is one of them.

Something you may try (and indeed I try before firing people) is a conflict resolution strategy (lots of good ones out there). But something like “I felt x when you did y. I need z, I believe you need a. What can I do to help you?” Can work. Sometimes feeling heard is enough for a run-of-the-mill a*hole to realize you are also a person.

g4zj2• 2 years ago

As an autistic person, I don't understand why this has to be so complicated. What people have to say either makes sense and is helpful, in which case I take it into account going forward. Otherwise, I simply disregard it.

I wouldn't expect or require people to put so much effort into preparing their feedback for me, or preparing me to hear it. It seems excessive and inefficient. Their time would be better spent making sure the feedback was as valuable as possible.

throwaway357772• 2 years ago

There is an excellent old book on the subject, How to Win Friends and Influence People. I was lacking in this area and my career improved greatly after reading it.

In general, people are cautious when giving criticism because it carries implications.

Say a manager gives negative feedback to a subordinate. The subordinate now believes the manager doesn't like them. The subordinate follows the standard advice: start looking for another job. Manager now has the larger problem of hiring a replacement.

It's best to reinforce positive behavior. Little trick I learned: compliment people. Find an reason to say "nice work" on every code review. DM people and say "nice presentation", "great design". It works.

g4zj2• 2 years ago

There is an excellent old book on the subject, How to Win Friends and Influence People. I was lacking in this area and my career improved greatly after reading it.

I've read the book, as a matter of fact. :) Although it's been quite a few years, I recall feeling like it was mostly a guide on manipulating people, and it didn't make a great impression on me, personally. I'm glad it was helpful for you, though!

Say a manager gives negative feedback to a subordinate. The subordinate now believes the manager doesn't like them.

I hear this and think back to what I said in my previous comment about the value of their feedback. There are certainly things a manager could say that would leave me feeling disliked in a personal way, but I can easily separate genuine feedback about my work or my ideas from personal statements.

It's best to reinforce positive behavior. Little trick I learned: compliment people. Find an reason to say "nice work" on every code review. DM people and say "nice presentation", "great design". It works.

I, too, believe in the value of giving genuine compliments, and I try to make sure I tell people any time I think they are doing good work. A clever solution deserves acknowledgement, for example. I suppose it just doesn't feel genuine when I'm using them to soften the potential blow of constructive criticism.

camel_gopher• 2 years ago

Don’t DM them, give positive feedback publicly, negative feedback privately.

AIorNot• 2 years ago

I think that one way to look at it for autistic or on the spectrum people is to consider the human behavioral implications that apply heavily in addition to the actual feedback given

Feedback and criticism is generally amplified by the relationship and social status of the giver, ie human factors trump rationality

For example if your kid brother says your code sucks and needs to be rewritten you may weight that much less importantly than if your respected tech lead does the same

We almost always over-amplify the negativity of feedback and the social relationship of the giver in criticism and for the most part most feedback is in fact criticism- humans will generally focus on the negative

In fact one mark of a professional is the ability to regard feedback dispassionately- but that is easier said than done

This I think it is vital for technical people to remember the human aspect of feedback and why the human context is so important

throwaway290232• 2 years ago

I disagree with a lot of this.

First of all, feedback is not a great way to build relationships. If it's positive feedback, and it's not perceived by them to be demeaning/dehumanizing/etc, most people will like it, regardless of relationship. But if it's negative, nobody likes to receive negative feedback, but especially not from someone they don't already trust. First build a relationship, then give negative feedback, when appropriate (which is a very qualified when).

Second, asking if you can give feedback is like asking if you can ask a question. The other person is going to feel rude if they say no, so they will instead feel pressured to say yes, and now you have a position of power over them, they feel bad, and you haven't even given the feedback yet. If the feedback is positive, just give it, don't ask them if it's okay. Nobody will legitimately complain about praise. If the feedback is negative, keep your friggin' trap shut, unless you feel the feedback is absolutely necessary, from you, right now. If it doesn't need to come from you, or it's not absolutely necessary in this moment, then wait until you have a normal conversation with them and allow it to enter conversation naturally and gracefully.

Third, don't offer feedback if the person has not already requested feedback. You can offer to them that they can give you feedback, but if they don't provide the same reciprocal offer to you, don't push it. Feedback isn't a right, it's a privilege.

Fourth, you absolutely should be afraid of giving feedback to people who might use that feedback against you. In fact, just sharing your thoughts about things in general, out in the open, can unintentionally hurt people's feelings and turn them against you. I have personally found out on several different occasions that I somehow hurt someone's feelings unintentionally, just because of my opinions on some topic (engineering-related, business-related, etc) that wasn't personally directed at anyone. Your tone, messaging, content and context can and will have unintended consequences, so think before you speak. If you're unsure of the outcome, either don't speak, or accept the consequences.

Fifth, this is general knowledge, but always complain up, never down. On the other hand, praise everyone: your boss, your direct reports, your peers. Praise costs nothing but does make people like you (and others).

If the only thing people hear you say is positive things, you will probably be one of the best-liked people at work. Giving negative feedback generally won't help you, and many won't be open to it, so choose wisely when you give it.

personjerry• 2 years ago

There's some nice ideas here but the reasoning / breakdown could be better "defined".

I highly recommend reading Crucial Conversations if you want to learn how to systematically have these conversations that seem "confrontational". As a recovering introvert, it was super useful to break down these social interactions and understand the mistakes that I (and most people) make. It was part of management training at Facebook; I found it also helped me in many contexts outside of work too.

squiffsquiff• 2 years ago

The elephant in the room with this article is that it is based on the presumption that people *will* give feedback and so discusses the next step- recommendations for how best to do so. In my experience the bigger problem is that *people often don't want to give feedback at all*. I have seen situations more than once where someone was actively seeking feedback as suggested here, e.g. asking their manager at each 1:1 "is there anything else I should know", being told "No concerns" week after week, even receiving compliments from that manager and colleagues on the team on some tasks, and then suddenly (for them at any rate) get a bombard of negative criticism together with an on-the-spot dismissal.

We can all make idle comments in response to the above about how "that's not how you should give feedback" or "those employees must have been really awful" but ultimately withholding or avoiding feedback and then delivering it in a catastrophic manner (together with a dismissal to avoid dealing with the consequences) is a thing that happens, even when people are requesting it in an appropriate setting from people with responsibility to provide it.

Never struggle to give feedback again

Related Stories