Tipping doesn't make any sense

http://bernardi.me/2012/05/tipping-doesnt-make-any-sense/

49 125 14 years ago

yashchandra2• 14 years ago

The norm in US is average 15% which could be considered high in other countries. I have lived in 3 countries including US. The only sense I could make out of it is the fact that labor is considered premium in the US (not talking about cost here since that is debatable in 2012). I personally do not mind tipping well (read 20-25%) but I find it disturbing that a waiter gives me attitude, shitty service, forgets to bring straw for the drink and then expects a tip since it is the norm. My wife and I have a joke. Every time a waiter screws up, we deduct 1% from the norm. Every time a waiter does something extra (like being nice, on time, no order screw-ups), we add 1% to the norm.

stefanobernardi3• 14 years ago

That's an interesting system. Do you think that having a 15% base is normal/right?

yashchandra2• 14 years ago

Depends. If the service is good, I am fine with 15% base. But I am not fine if I get bad service.

astrodust• 14 years ago

That's typical in most parts, but New York is moving towards 20% being the norm.

Maybe it'll be 25% for crappy service, 50% for decent treatment in the future if it keeps escalating.

tomp3• 14 years ago

When I was in the US, the norm was 10%. Anyone has a clue why the tip is raising faster than inflation?

masklinn6• 14 years ago

> The norm in US is average 15% which could be considered high in other countries

Infinitely so, as most countries either include staff remuneration in the bill or automatically add a service charge to the bill.

Tips generally aren't expected in any western european country that I know, for instance. Exceptional service is sometimes rewarded, but beyond that there is no tipping apart from people leaving the change "on the table" (because they can't be arsed)

stefanobernardi3• 14 years ago

I'd love to hear from the HN community reasons that make this one a good system, and hope to not generate too much of a religious war.

raganwald2• 14 years ago

You ask reasonable questions, the problem (like anything else involving disrupting an existing practice) is implementing it. You can’t just go around not tipping, in the hopes that decent waiters will start demanding higher wages from their employers. I mean, you can, and you’ll save some money, but you won’t change the system by yourself.

Also, your objection to paying a percentage of the bill is not the strongest point in the article. It’s true that Fedex charge me the same money to deliver an envelope containing a contract worth $10,000 as they do to deliver a birthday card worth $5. They would probably love to charge me more for the contract, that would help them with price discrimination. But since they can’t peek at the contents of the envelope, they try to find a proxy for value in the form of speed of delivery. Rush service costs more, ostensibly because the sooner you need it, the more valuable it is and the more you’re willing to pay.

Sometimes, that’s way off like with a birthday card you’re trying to get delivered in time for a birthday, but on the whole the system is good enough. Likewise with tipping. Forget about trying to value the service by the cost to deliver it. The system is trying to charge you what you can afford, and the amount you spend on the food is close enough to make things work out most of the time.

The entire system is sitting in a local maximum that’s good enough for most purposes. If you try to deviate a little, you’ll end up with worse outcomes for everyone. You need a dramatic and disruptive change to the entire thing to move it to another local maximum.

I encourage you to think of this as an exercise in startup business planning. Imagine there was a YC company that “fixed” the system. What product or service would it provide and how would it extract value from the current inefficiencies?

masklinn6• 14 years ago

> You ask reasonable questions, the problem (like anything else involving disrupting an existing practice) is implementing it.

It really isn't that hard: remove "tipped staff" exceptions to US labor laws and everybody will adjust quite fast.

> The entire system is sitting in a local maximum that’s good enough for most purposes. If you try to deviate a little, you’ll end up with worse outcomes for everyone.

Do you really? That seems to be an assertion based on absolutely no foundations.

twoodfin3• 14 years ago

What product or service would it provide and how would it extract value from the current inefficiencies?

Tipping compensates for a restaurant owner's lack of information about the quality of her staff's effect on her business. If she were certain that a particular server was repeatedly producing highly satisfied customers who were likely to return or recommend the establishment to their friends, it would be in her best interest to pay that server more to retain his services.

The trick would be getting this feedback in a way that saves the customer from a 10-20% markup. Yelp reviews occasionally capture servers' names, but that's not likely to produce a useful sample, even putting aside all the usual problems with social review sites.

One could imagine some sci-fi mood monitoring technology that could tell the owner in real time which patrons were satisfied or agitated, and that data could be correlated to the server, the chef, the size of the bill...

The middle ground would be creating a low-friction, high-reliability scoring mechanism. But it can be hard to get honest feedback when the customer's money isn't on the table.

nextstep3• 14 years ago

I don't know why, but this is a topic about which people often hold very strong views. I agree with the author, but I feel like this viewpoint is discouraged, at least in the US; tipping is mandatory, and it is considered rude not to tip.

But, if tipping is mandatory, why not just advertise the real price? Take a cabe ride for example: I pay the driver to take me from point A to B. He (or she) completes this task, and I pay them. Very rarely do I feel like I have received exceptional service, and often the drivers are rude and impatient. But I have to tip at least 10-15% or I'm an asshole.

Maybe we'd all receive better service if we stopped compulsory tipping, and instead only tipped when we receive good customer service.

stefanobernardi3• 14 years ago

I'm all hears for a solution to this problem. I've been thinking about it and failing at it. The system is really ubiquitous at the moment.

glhaynes• 14 years ago

Many regions of the world work just fine without tipping, so the difficulty would be in the transition. Have any cultures successfully made the transition from tipping to not-tipping?

Seems like the only start toward doing so would be to force minimum wage standards to be applied to all workers. This would benefit some but cause significant hardships to some others, so it seems to me unlikely to be achievable.

loumf• 14 years ago

How much of a problem is this?

You said that it wasn't money -- that it was just not knowing the cost. If that's true, I don't understand at all -- the cost is 20% more than the listed price. If you see a burger at $10, that's really $12 -- it's the same problem as dining in a foreign currency -- the exchange rate for $ to R$ (restaurant dollars) is 1.200.

tptacek23• 14 years ago

It's not "considered" rude not to tip in the US. It is rude not to tip. It may not make sense to you that restaurants underpay waitstaff in anticipation of tips, but they do. If you want to protest the practice, don't patronize businesses that encourage tipping.

For whatever it's worth to you, tipping isn't just an incentive scheme to get waitstaff to do their jobs well; it's also a commission and recruiting/retention practice.

I have no strong opinions about tipping cabs. I tip them, but the economics behind cab tips are not the same as for service staff. Cab drivers in Chicago are usually sole proprietors of their own businesses and can select their routes to maximize returns; about the most you could say is that they also have to deal with fixed fare rates, which themselves might be set in anticipation of tipping.

But refusing to tip restaurant servers is from what I can tell morally equivalent to taking money out of their pockets.

joejohnson3• 14 years ago

From the post, Alaska, California, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington require minimum wage for waitstaff. Do you think tipping should be mandatory in these states?

How about all of the other service professionals which are paid a decent wage regardless of tips?

BerislavLopac• 14 years ago

Please excuse my ignorance, but how is not tipping the servers considered rude ("morally equivalent to taking money out of their pockets"), and flat-out lying about the prices isn't? If I'm told one price, and am considered a thief if I pay it exactly, this is morally acceptable? I'm a bit confused here.

fishtoaster3• 14 years ago

I'm not sure the comparison to other industries is apt- servers serve you, and the majority of the quality of their output comes directly from their personal interactions with you. Contrast this to, say, a programmer, where the majority of the quality of their output comes from their product- if the software they write is good, their interactions with the customer (if any) are not very important.

Tips in serving and other interaction-heavy professions (doormen, barbers, delivery people) allow a much more immediate feedback loop for poor service than the traditional "If you suck, you'll get fired in a month or two" system.

The reason there's a standard tip amount is because that gives people something to deduct from for particularly bad service. If the default were no tip, customers would have to fall back on the traditional feedback mechanisms (that are both slow and considerably more effort) like complaining the the manager.

Personally, I'd say the biggest argument against tipping is that it tends to reflect many things that are largely outside the server's control: food quality, food preparation time, atmosphere, general dining experience.

masklinn6• 14 years ago

> I'm not sure the comparison to other industries is apt- servers serve you, and the majority of the quality of their output comes directly from their personal interactions with you.

So it is for your doctor or your cab driver.

> Tips in serving and other interaction-heavy professions (doormen, barbers, delivery people)

Are either reserved for beyond flawless service or are basically bribes.

fishtoaster3• 14 years ago

For my doctor, the primary measure of his quality is how good he is at medicine– that is, whether I get better or not. I'd prefer that he's nice and friendly, but curing my bronchitis is the more important aspect of our interaction.

For a server, the interaction is the primary thing I care about.

aidenn02• 14 years ago

We were apparently raised differently since I was raised to tip these people, as well as cab drivers.

tomp3• 14 years ago

Doctors and nurses serve you. bank and store clerks serve you. I'm sure there are many more examples.

dfxm124• 14 years ago

This is tangent to your argument, but to this end, good servers have sense enough to leave bad restaurants. Servers are also the gatekeepers for feedback. If they aren't telling the cooks "this isn't coming out fast enough, my tables are getting hungry" or the manager "the silverware is filthy, who'd eat with this?", then they aren't doing their job. I'm not saying they should necessarily be penalized for poor cooking or management, I'm saying they are smart enough to take their services elsewhere, because good servers might be harder to find than you think.

tptacek23• 14 years ago

Turnover among restaurant service staff is a huge industry issue; you'll find journal articles about it (there are, in fact, hospitality industry journals).

kzahel• 14 years ago

I rarely tip. But when I do, I do it with just the tip

jasonshen• 14 years ago

There are a lot of strange practices that exist within society and there are probably good historical reasons for why tipping emerged in the United States. Perhaps it'd be better not to fuss over it and instead focus on changing things that really matter, rather than fighting arbitrary social norms that are inconsequential in the long run.

jemka2• 14 years ago

Excuses. Excusing a wrong on any bases is a slippery slope which can lead to excuses for not "changing things that really matter".

Change is the common denominator. Change is what people have issues with and create excuses not to do.

mertd• 14 years ago

What is wrong with mentally adding 15% to everything on the menu?

FrankenTan• 14 years ago

It's my (uninformed and second-hand) impression that tipping-culture is often defined whether the waiters\servers are given minimum livable salary or whether the tip is the larger income.

Killswitch• 14 years ago

Love this article. I worked in the restaurant industry for 6 years, mainly as a cook, so I didn't get tipped as my wages were decent, but when I did exceptional service, I did receive a "Please give this to the cook" tip and it made me feel good. I normally tip, but at the same time, I hate that people feel they are mandatory to tip... No it's a reason for exceptional service, not "I served you food, you tip me". If you rely on your tips then look for a different job. If you make me feel obligated to tip you, I won't and it won't bother me either.

That being said, I am really bad at tipping $10 for a $5 beer... :(

3pt14159• 14 years ago

Tipping would work better if people increased the tipping variance. When I have really shitty service => no tip. OK service 12% because anything less and I'm considered a jerk.

Why isn't 5% standard for OK, but rushed service?

Revisor• 14 years ago

That's pretty much how it works in Central Europe, with the difference that 10% and more goes for great service.

wtvanhest• 14 years ago

I don't know about other Americans, but when I visit other countries I typically find the servers nice but slow and the overall quality of service much lower.

When I was a server I would work hard to make sure I got every dollar. The tip is always on your mind, all night.

The other good thing about tipping is that it also makes the job a sales job. The higher the bill, the higher the tip and therefore it properly aligns incentives with the restaurant. The exception to that is fraud where a server provides free items to attempt to get a larger tip.

I get that it must be extremely irritating for people from outside the US to get a price and then have to do the math to figure out what it really costs, but that is a small price to pay for superior service all the time.

GuiA2• 14 years ago

I'm European, and am used to not tipping— and I hate service in the US :)

Waiters come bother you every 5 minute asking if everything ok, if they can refill your water, etc. I just like to enjoy my food and have conversation with my tablemates without being interrupted every 5 minute. In France, the waiter comes to take your order and give you your food, and that's it. You usually have a caraffe of water and a basket of bread on the table so that you don't have to wait on the waiter's good will to refill your glass.

Additionally, in the US, you tend to be escorted out as soon as you're finished eating because the more tables the waiter serves, the more money he makes. This is extremely irritating— after I'm done eating, I like taking the time to talk with people and hangout without having the bill shoved in my face and the waiter asking us to leave (happened a few times). In France, you leave whenever you want to (unless the restaurant is extremely busy I assume, but it never happened to me).

So no, I wouldn't call the service "superior"— rather more irritating and intrusive because that's the best way to get a good tip, while pretending to be superior.

raldi2• 14 years ago

It's subjective. Whichever standard you're used to, the opposite is irritating.

As an example, when I (an American) visited France and Italy, I couldn't stand that it took 30+ minutes after finishing our meals to pay the bill and get out of there.

But that's not really linked to tipping or the lack thereof; tipping's unusual in Japan, and yet they're the gold standard for getting out of a restaurant quickly once your meal is done.

lrs• 14 years ago

>So no, I wouldn't call the service "superior"— rather more irritating and intrusive because that's the best way to get a good tip, while pretending to be superior.

This seems to lend more support to the inference that you personally have atypical preferences than it does to the inference that the American tipping system as a whole doesn't result in greater aggregate satisfaction with service.

You acknowledge that most people tip more when their servers do things that you find "irritating and intrusive." To me, this suggests that most people don't find those things irritating and intrusive, and in fact like them, and that's why they're willing to surrender more money when they experience them.

dfxm124• 14 years ago

This is extremely irritating— after I'm done eating, I like taking the time to talk with people and hangout without having the bill shoved in my face and the waiter asking us to leave (happened a few times).

Pure curiosity here, have you ever been waiting to get into a restaurant, wishing some people would leave so you may be seated? Wouldn't you be more comfortable hanging out in a lounge?

sparknlaunch122• 14 years ago

Being European I have never understood the tipping culture. However the Brits (and other European countries) don't have a tipping culture but have a '12.5% service charge' at restaurants.

I believe to avoid any ambiguity you simply have a all or nothing policy.

shabble2• 14 years ago

If an establishment has a declared service rate, I'm much less likely to consider tipping in excess of that rate, even for service that would receive more from me elsewhere.

If they've decided what they're worth, who am I to argue?

sparknlaunch122• 14 years ago

I am torn between wanting transparency and simplicity.

Transparency - I want to know what expenses make up the final price I pay.

Simplicity - I just want to pay one single figure.

This may explain the anger over airfares. People complained airfares cost too much. Then companies like Ryan Air broke down the costs. Then people got angry that the individual costs were unfair.

Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't?

aneth4• 14 years ago

Regardless of anything else, it's wrong that servers are paid less per hour just because tips are common. This places an unfair burden on customers, and took tips from being part of a culture of discretionary generosity to being enshrined law. Since the tip is now required for the server to earn minimum wage, it is no longer a tip but a sort of marginally optional "fee."

IMO, a 10% service charge without expectation of a tip makes much more sense and is much fairer.

The entitlement culture in the service industry is so great that servers will angrily say things like "if you can't afford to tip on a bottle of wine, don't order it or stay home." Yikes. How about I just don't tip you.

joejohnson3• 14 years ago

I agree. In fact, why not go a little further and make everything cost 10% more. Then, the customer knows up front exactly what the meal will cost. However the restaurant wants to split the revenue of the final check is up to the restaurant.

gridaphobe• 14 years ago

This a thousand times, and while we're at it please include tax in the advertised price. Growing up in Germany and the US, I find the US system incredibly deceptive and annoying..

dfxm124• 14 years ago

There are some laws about this in most states of the US. If a restaurant charges a "x% service fee", then you must pay that fee. Deal with it. If they claim "x% gratuity is included in the check", then you can ask not to pay it.

I frequented a restaurant that did the latter. The problem was that they did a bad job of advertising the fact & would sometimes go as far as to not give an itemized check. I personally felt like I was being duped. This led to customers tipping on top on a tip & when customers found out, there was a lot of rage on Yelp et al. They repealed the auto gratuity.

Point is, if you are going to do this be loud and clear about it.

tptacek23• 14 years ago

Servers are entitled to tips, although ironically not necessarily on wine; while it's customary to simply roll wine into your tip, if you're buying expensive bottles it's acceptable to tip less for it.

Tips are part of the way the market for restaurant service is organized. The expectation that you're going to participate in the full market by tipping is universal and an implied part of the US social contract. If this offends you, that's fine: just don't dine in places that expect you to tip. You'll be sending the message to the appropriate target, the business owners, and not to the servers who have no control over the way the market is arranged.

Luc2• 14 years ago

> just don't dine in places that expect you to tip. You'll be sending the message to the appropriate target, the business owners

How does that work? By telepathy?

> and not to the servers who have no control over the way the market is arranged.

It's _exactly_ the servers that need to unionise and get this archaic system outlawed.

peetahb5• 14 years ago

Now that's just absurd, feeling entitled to receive extra cash for doing your job is ass-backwards. Taking an order, turning in the order, bringing out the order and then delivering the check is part of the job, any service that exceeds that deserves a tip. But feeling entitled to a tip for basically only doing what you're paid to do, is simply stupid.

I personally have no problem leaving a 5-10% tip of the sub-total at a restaurant for basic service, but feeling entitled to it is, I repeat, stupid.

aneth4• 14 years ago

Tips can't both be discretionary and an entitlement. That's a contradiction, and I think where the discomfort arises.

Either they are an entitlement - in which case they should be disclosed and added as a fee, or they are discretionary, in which case the servers wages should not be reduced because of the expectation.

jack-r-abbit4• 14 years ago

> IMO, a 10% service charge without expectation of a tip makes much more sense and is much fairer.

But isn't that basically just forcing a 10% tip on everyone with no regard for actual services rendered? While the tipping practice may be flawed, there is at least some built in incentive for the server to aim for more tips. With a mandatory 10% fee, the server has no incentive to go beyond their duty and the customer has no opt out.

aneth4• 14 years ago

Not really. The 10% is required and disclosed, so it is no difference than raising the prices. Tips on the other hand are an imposition since they are both expected and discretionary.

Sure, the 10% could be included in the price and wages raised, but it doesn't make much difference. It's the difference between a VAT tax and a sales tax - in the end the amount is the same - sales tax is just more apparent to the consumer.

fragsworth• 14 years ago

There have been many discussions about whether or not servers will spit in your food if you're known not to tip. Whether this actually happens frequently or not (I don't believe it happens very often), it's a fear many people have and is probably a factor that keeps tipping alive.

raldi2• 14 years ago

Then why do people tip cab drivers and hairdressers and bellhops?

bradleyland• 14 years ago

I wonder how the math works out versus a no-tip scenario?

Tips are money that doesn't come out of the restaurant owner's pocket. Restaurants tend to run on pretty thin margins, so let's treat this as a zero sum game and assume that any increase in wait staff wages is necessarily passed on to the consumer. I know next to nothing about what a waitress earns or how a restaurant is run, so I'd appreciate if anyone wanted to shoot holes in my reasoning here. I'm genuinely curious, so treat this as a proposition of method, rather than proof.

Florida minimum wage for tipped employees is $4.65/hr. I live in Florida, so I'll go with that.

$4.65 x 40 hrs a week x 52 weeks a year is $9,672.00

I've known local waitresses who claim to take home around $30k a year (with tips).

$30k annually works out to a wage of $14.42/hr given the same 40 hrs x 52 weeks work schedule.

$14.42 is about 3 times $4.65

So in a general sense, the restaurant owner would have to pay his wait staff (around) three times as much in order to meet their tipped wage. Not having run a restaurant, I have no idea how that would affect the price of a meal. Can anyone with more knowledge pick it up from here?

pyoung• 14 years ago

If, after increasing the wages, tipping is no longer 'required' of customers, the total price of a meal would stay roughly the same. The owner would raise the price of the meal by about 15%, and pass that on to the servers, however tips would no longer be expected.

jeremyarussell• 14 years ago

The problem is that we are already in a vicious cycle, you can't break this cycle by not tipping though, all that does is screw the waiter/waitress. If we want to change things we need to do it with litigation to prevent employers from paying less than minimum wage.

tptacek23• 14 years ago

The practice of tipping services a bunch of business purposes:

* It creates a spectrum of competition for server spots; service staff at fine dining restaurants make significant amounts of money but must hustle to secure those jobs; service staff at diners make reliable but low amounts of money and can easily find work.

* It functions as a commission system; servers who sell higher-priced products get superior returns from those tables, which suits the aims of the restaurant itself. Servers who can move wine make significantly more than servers who can't, and in good restaurants, wine is where the restaurant makes its money.

* It obviously helps ensure that servers are polite and helpful, which, restaurants being in the hospitality industry, is obviously a core part of the value proposition.

* More importantly, it incentivizes servers to increase table turnover.

These are all functions that could be managed at varying levels of effectiveness by other compensation schemes, but those other schemes don't actually improve outcomes for consumers; they raise prices and reduce transparency.

unconed• 14 years ago

Funny. Universally, I've found the dining experience better in places where people don't tip... servers not pushing upgrades, no chasing people away to make room for new customers, knowing exactly how much you'll pay, plates not being snatched away before you can set the fork down, etc. Then again, I grew up in a culture where dinner is the main event, rather than the lead up to it.

tptacek23• 14 years ago

My only restaurant experiences outside the US are in Europe, and my experiences are that service is perfectly friendly but much slower.

This doesn't impact me much (nothing wrong with a leisurely dinner), but it is murder on the small business owners of restaurants; below $50USD/table or so, success or failure in food service is all about turnover.

nextstep3• 14 years ago

Of all these functions you list, why does the customer need to be involved? These could all be abstracted away from the user.

If servers were paid more (and tipping were no longer required), people could still tip on top of that. This still creates your "spectrum of competition."

If the restaurants were trying to encourage up-selling (your wine example), then they can give bonuses correlated to how much wine each waiter sells.

If tipping is mandatory, it doesn't ensure servers are polite and helpful! This is common sense. If tips are considered a guarantee, then the incentive to work harder is removed. Additionally, waiters are often rude when they feel they have been tipped poorly. So, again, tipping only when you've received exceptional service, makes more sense.

As for "transparency," I think the most transparent scheme would be customers are expected to pay the list price. No tacit agreements about tipping or service fees. If it's not a listed charge on the menu, it's not required and it is purely optional. How much more transparent and simple can you get?

tptacek23• 14 years ago

Exactly what is transparent about the "list price" on the menu? It can mean anything at all. It may reflect the cost of ingredients or track the laboriousness of prepping a dish, or it may instead track the popularity of the offering and have nothing whatsoever to do with expenses; in some cases, the list price on the menu may not even fully account for expenses and instead function as a loss leader.

The tip is the only transparent part about the price of a meal; in addition to its obvious surface meaning, understanding the subtext behind tipping also gives you an idea of what the restaurant wants you to do (eat faster, buy wine, &c) and adjust your behavior accordingly (towards or against the restaurant's interests).

tomp3• 14 years ago

Points 2 and 4 are against the interest of the customer, so why should the customer incentivize the server to perform them?

tptacek23• 14 years ago

Not every part of the market for restaurant service is arranged for the benefit of the customer. Some of them are arranged to improve the viability of new restaurants. That's obviously an indirect benefit to customers, not a direct one.

ArtB• 14 years ago

I'm not interested in encouraging up-selling or table turnover, so you're saying I should not tip?

bunderbunder2• 14 years ago

I'm not convinced those purposes really pan out, though.

Some alternative takes:

* A spectrum of competition can also be created the way it's done in any other industry: Expect a higher level of professionalism and competence from holders of higher-paying jobs, and attract more qualified employees by paying them more.

* A commission system can be handled the way it's done in any other industry: The employer sets the commission, and builds it into their price structure. This would be more transparent, since it means the consumer is being directly told how much the item will cost rather than being expected to do mental math to acquire its true price.

* Studies have shown there's not really a lot of correlation between the server's quality of service and the tip they get. It has a lot more to do with the temperament of the tipper, etc. It's not an incentive if it doesn't incentivize. And a basic demand for professionalism and courtesy works anywhere else. There's something fundamentally broken about a customer service philosophy that assumes your customer-facing employees need financial incentives to be nice to people. For one, it implies a poor opinion of the people who are doing the job.

* An straightforward commission would also encourage increased table turnover. Again, with more price transparency for the consumer, and more respect afforded to the server.

tptacek23• 14 years ago

How does a backend commission that customers play no part in improve transparency for customers? What's more transparent than "I can actually select the commission my servers gets, from 15-20%"?

Help me understand how tipping is customer-unfriendly, and jacked up menu prices and backend commissions aren't. I'm just not getting it. Is it just the requirement to do math?

skormos• 14 years ago

"I don't tip because society says I have to. All right, if someone deserves a tip, if they really put forth an effort, I'll give them something a little something extra. But this tipping automatically, it's for the birds. As far as I'm concerned, they're just doing their job." -- Mr. Pink, 'Reservoir Dogs'

kayhi• 14 years ago

"Why don’t we tip the bus driver? And the doctors?"

I worked a couple of years as a lifeguard making essentially minimum wage and saved two children during that time. I received a thank you and appreciated it, but think there should be room for a ten spot.

mattberg• 14 years ago

the example receipt from the article shows a frustrating concept that has always bothered me. the included 20% gratuity value is actually 20% of the after-tax total, not the pre-tax total. what logic would exist to tip on any sort of tax?

shabble2• 14 years ago

Probably the same reason that stuff I order internationally and pay import duty on invariably includes the cost of delivery (which can be £50+ for US reasonably-fast shipping) as the 'package value' declaration.

I can't easily imagine a system where this makes sense.

scotty79• 14 years ago

In robotised restaurants Americans will be leaving customary 20% tip for software and hardware maintenance crew.

kenamarit• 14 years ago

First, I have to agree, tipping is a bizarre system/cultural norm, and I am very curious about how, historically, this came to be...

From my perspective, I spent a year working as a barista and bartender part-time when I first moved to New York, and I would estimate that 80% of those who work as a waiter, barista or bartender do it to support themselves as they pursue whatever it is they do (the usual suspects: acting, art, music, writing, school etc.). This is what kids do to get by--they're not committed in any way to the place they work.

At my coffee shop (not at restaurants or bars) I got paid minimum wage plus tips, which at the time was something like $8 + on average $4 to $8 an hour. I can't say I agreed or disagreed with the system at the time, or that I even thought about it, but from my experience the lure of tips greatly outweighed any set amount of (low) salary I would have received. For example, I've gotten a couple $100 tips from Wall St. ballers, or one time $40 from a man just for pouring a cup of coffee! If you work at any number of restaurants, the odds are much higher that on any given night, you will win the tip lottery. And the more a man drinks, the more he will open his heart (and wallet) to the young, struggling artist behind the bar.

For the waiter/bartender/barista, I would guess that the average wage comes out to about the same as a respectable working wage for the skills involved (maybe $15-$20/hr). If you work at a Michelin rated restaurant, you would have to get a much much higher starting salary to compensate for a lack of tips, at least in NYC.

terryk88a• 14 years ago

take it to reddit

fishtoaster3• 14 years ago

On another note, I think it's important to separate discussions on whether you disagree with the tip system from discussions on whether, assuming you disagree with the tip system, you should tip or not.

I think this is the source of a lot of the animosity around this issue- debating the merits of tipping is fine, but not tipping at a restaurant where it's expected takes out your frustration with a system by punishing a person (the server) who has no control over that system.

joelreymont• 14 years ago

We dined at Nardo's in Havana a summer ago. It's off of Central Park, in front of the Capitolium. Had a great time.

The waiter brought us a bill with a 10% service charge and I asked whether a tip was expected. I don't remember why I asked, perhaps the service charge seemed low or maybe I was just curious.

The waiter told me that of course the tip was expected... on top of the 10% service charge. This is because the service charge covers the staff in the kitchen while the tip covers the waiter :D.

shrikant• 14 years ago

So... You asked a guy if he should receive more money or less, and are surprised that he chose the first option?

Frozenlock• 14 years ago

People have weird reactions. If a guy discovers his girlfriend is sleeping with someone else, he will be angry at the other guy. Why? The 'other guy' had no relation with him, he simply met a nice girl and wanted to have a good time. The girl was in a relation with him; he should be angry at her!

When I enter a restaurant, I see a price on the menu and this is what I intend to pay. When I order the food, this is my agreement with the restaurant: pay what is asked. The server might be angry at me for not giving any tip, but as with the previous example, I have nothing to do with any contract the restaurant owner and the server might have. He accepted to work for a given salary. I might give a little extra if there's a parade for me or something, but not for just doing your job.

Tipping doesn't make any sense

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