Notes on paper (2023)

https://voussoir.net/writing/notes_on_paper

by Tomte • 2 years ago

152 62 2 years ago

voussoir9• 2 years ago

Hi, this is my article and your post came into my RSS feed. I'm surprised my website has visitors! Let me know if you have any questions. Thanks

alexpotato• 2 years ago

How do you store the individual paper over time?

e.g. do you have a special binder with clear sleeves etc?

voussoir9• 2 years ago

I actually can't remember that well, but I don't think I used anything special. There might have been a few courses where I just used a paper folder with simple pockets inside, and some courses where I used a three-ring binder with section dividers for the courses. I would set the paper in between the dividers and it would stay there well enough by friction without any help.

The total number of pages for each course was never very high because we were on quarters instead of semesters. If there were a lot of pages I'd probably add some sleeves to secure the pages -- but I would be fine with putting several pages in each sleeve rather than one page each.

After the course was over I put the pages into 9x12 clasped folders and that's where they piled up until I did this scan.

Thanks!

rambambram2• 2 years ago

You have interesting articles. You might want to set up an RSS feed for your 'writing' page, because I definitely want to keep updated on new posts.

voussoir9• 2 years ago

Thanks! Here's the link, it's at the bottom of the article list but I suppose it doesn't stand out well enough.

https://voussoir.net/writing/writing.atom

cloudbonsai• 2 years ago

I'm also a habitual paper-note taker, and found your note pleasant. Good work!

Addendum: I maintain a loose leaf binder that documents important ideas/decisions I made during the cource of life. So this habit can be extended to broader domains as well.

specialist• 2 years ago

Your handwritten notes are more polished than my final rewrites.

Setting aside my pen(person?)ship envy, nicely done. I know I should consider scanning my notes too.

velcrovan• 2 years ago

Handwritten notes can be very useful in the short term. But there is often this impulse to implement some kind of digitization/archival system for them as well. I wonder how many people who have done this have found real value in the digitized notes?

sph• 2 years ago

Digitized notes are a good idea in theory, in practice most notes are write-only and are never read back ever again. Add the fact that writing a note by hand is proven to be a much better memory aid than storing it in a computer.

I suffer from terrible memory retention because of ADHD, so I need to rely to external storage more than most people—yet after obsessing about note taking for a while I reached productivity enlightenment: I really do not need to remember and categorise most of my thoughts and notes. I produce millions of ideas every day, and I have, hopefully, other 50 years ahead of me of potentially interesting thoughts I might feel I want to remember, only to collapse under this ever-increasing weight of nonsense, of things that seemed important one day, and really were not in the grand scheme of things.

No, these days I write, seldomly, on a paper notebook. I embrace my terrible memory and use it as a tool, to aggressively cull every extraneous thought du jour. If it's important, it'll come up again. If it's truly important, it'll keep me awake at night. That is the real problem of digital notes: they never fade away.

The only things I keep in Org Mode are memories from decades ago I am sure I will want to reminisce about when I am 80. Like my family tree, the list of video games I loved as a kid, the important dates of my life.

crestfallen• 2 years ago

In my experience (FWIW) there is value in archiving and preserving notes and other documents. Typically that value is realized when you actually go back to them. That's the hard part. If you can make that a habit, you're off to the races.

voussoir9• 2 years ago

I agree that I will probably never use these notes to go back and actually learn anything. I did this scanning project because I wanted to shred the paper and be rid of it, but I felt I should keep it digitally because it's so cheap and easy to. It seems sad to just discard work, even though the actual knowledge is still contained in the textbooks and, hopefully, my brain. But the doodles are worth more than the lecture notes from a nostalgia perspective.

mixedmath• 2 years ago

I've found digitizing notes is not useful to me. I digitized all my notes from grad school and they're sort of a wash now.

I still take lots of paper notes. One thing that had been very useful is to make (short, simple) indices in my paper notes and to digitize just the indices.

It takes almost no time. The result is that when I want to look at old noted I can look up where in my digital indices, and then walk over to a shelf and pick out my notes. I've used this *a lot* and it's surprisingly helpful.

Caveat: I'm a mathematician, so I have a lot of paper notes and half-baked ideas. So my paper notes often look more like a set of laboratory notebooks and not idle learning notebooks. I essentoally never look back on noted I take while learning some new subject.

melagonster• 2 years ago

This is interesting to see how mathematician. Does this mean you store all unfinished works on shelf and keep forward every time?

cladopa2• 2 years ago

I find it useful for storage. I digitalise everything with an automatic feeder scanner.

I am using hundreds of sheets of paper at any given moment. Those I don't use, I archive in boxes(if they are important) or throw them away(after digitalising).

I travel a lot, so when I need some notes, I just print them again in color whenever I am.

I only process the notes automatically with an AI in order to search. But nothing sophisticated and storage is cheap so they remain a high quality image, I do not bother making it into a proprietary eink format(although I calculate it for searching).

I do not use the iPad for that, because paper and color pens give me way more real state for way less money and eink capabilities.

kushan2020• 2 years ago

What good quality pen do you recommend ?

twojacobtwo• 2 years ago

Having gone through a pen collecting phase, i think you need to give some details.

1. A budget. 2. Writing preferences and handedness. 3. Preferred writing surface/media. 4. Body type

For 2, that would include:

a) tip type - rollerball, ballpoint, fountain, or 'marker'.

b) tip size/diameter (essentially contact surface area) e.g. 0.17mm-1.0+mm

c) 'ink' type - gel etc.

Handedness matters mostly because left handers typically want the fastest drying ink.

Writing surface (paper) is important because it can drastically change how a pen writes (especially for fountain pens).

The body type might include approx. thickness (compared to an average pencil maybe), body material (metal, plastic, wood), contoured grip (yes/no, material?), and retractability.

If you don't know any of those, I would say just try to define what quality would mean to you.

a_e_k• 2 years ago

retractability

As someone who always carries a pen in my pocket when I leave the house, I've come to find this one surprisingly important. Retractable pens have a habit of accidentally engaging and scribbling over the pocket fabric. I exclusively use capped pens for my daily carries now.

left handers typically want the fastest drying ink.

Heck yes!

ryba19672• 2 years ago

Try going through this list to see if anything clicks with you

ryba19672• 2 years ago

https://www.penaddict.com/top-5-pens

voussoir9• 2 years ago

My favorite pen is the Uniball Vision Micro. Not the "Elite" model, but the base model sometimes called the "Eye" in some regions.

I've been using these for maybe 14 years? And I've got three dozen more in my desk cause you never know when something you like is gonna get discontinued.

nxobject• 2 years ago

If you're looking for something slightly more mass-market but with the best writing experience I've seen out of such a pen, try the Pilot G-2 gel roller pen, preferably with a wider tip size (say, .7mm). Very smooth writing experience and good grips – the only downside is how much pen cartridges are very conspicuously less filled than they could be, and perhaps the lack of weight.

mrexroad• 2 years ago

I’m a fountain pen user (helped me tremendously with RSI), but the Pilot VP <F> is my daily driver for note taking — it’s retractable. Other frequently used pens: Kaweco Sport (Brass) <F> as a pocket pen and a Pilot Custom 823 <M> for letters / sit down writing.

justajot• 2 years ago

These are all excellent fountain pens! I'll add the Lamy 2000 (Fine nib) to the list, as it's my personal favorite and is what I use all day every day. And I happen to also use a Pilot Custom 823 (Medium nib) for journaling every morning. Nothing beats a nice fountain pen with quality ink and paper. Speaking of inks, I've found Rohrer & Klingner's Schreibtinte Verdigris to be wonderful in the Lamy 2000, and lately I've been using Noodler's Sequoia Green for the Pilot Custom 823.

01HNNWZ0MV43FF2• 2 years ago

I like the Sharpie pens. I assumed they would be terrible but I actually like them. Ballpoints frequently just stop writing. I'm not clever enough for fountain pens. The Sharpie pen is just a tiny, stiff marker that seems willing to put out ink without any fuss.

littlelady2• 2 years ago

I'm left-handed, so I like fast-drying ink. I prefer a thin, but dark line. Here are some of the pens I like using.

1. Pentel Energel needlepoints 0.5 (BLN75 or the BLN105); refills fit a Lamy Tipo. It's a great everyday pen.

2. Zebra Sarasa 0.5 - lots of variations of this pen with lots of pretty ink colors and cute body styles. I would use it more, if it were available in local shops. I don't order stationery.

I tried the often lauded Pilot G2, but wasn't a fan. It often would smear.

davidmr• 2 years ago

Do you have issues with other rollerball pens? I’m also left-handed, and really struggle with them (especially the G2). My issues seem to be that when I’m pushing the point across the paper, rather than pulling it across like a right-hander would do, they often dry up and there’s no ink coming out.

I like how quick drying gel pens are, but I haven’t been able to write with them consistently. If that happens to you with other rollerballs, I’ll give that Pentel Energel a try.

dailyplanet• 2 years ago

What scanner and scanning method did you use?

voussoir9• 2 years ago

They're big Ricoh brand scanners at my workplace and I used the top document feeder which was able to handle big stacks at once. 600 DPI, 1-bit tiff.

We have a scanner at home but it's only got a glass bed, that's why I hadn't gotten around to doing this for so long.

abdullahkhalids• 2 years ago

I had a scanner at my work before, but its feeder always got stuck on input paper. The slightest crease would set it off. I really stopped using it.

stettberger2• 2 years ago

You would not believe it, but I just created (this week) a Latex TikZ library that helps me to create templates / journal inserts for the use case of handwritten notes. Although I believe in DIN A5 paper, it might be useful for someone:

https://github.com/stettberger/notebook

cratermoon2• 2 years ago

How can I get the columns at the bottom, above the page number? Is that possible?

stettberger2• 2 years ago

Sure that is directly possible without further tinkering:

\notebookpage{todo={[bottom,draw]3},fill dotted,paginate}

This will create a dotted page with 3x2 todo notes at the bottom. The todo fields are surrounded by a box (draw), and the page is paginated.

dragontamer• 2 years ago

I disagree with almost everything on this list. But that's what makes note taking a personal experience I guess.

1. Buy an automatic counting machine. https://www.amazon.com/Cosco-Automatic-Numbering-6-Digits-02...

2. Number your pages. Number your cross references. Date as it makes sense but always have a primary key (aka page number) to reference any page in your notes.

3. Never use loose paper by themselves. They get lost everywhere and are hard to track. Always have a binding strategy, even the simplest staple combines 10 sheets of paper into logical organization.

4. Prefer 2-hole punch, 2-hole bindings (https://wwwsqp8.officedepot.com/a/products/640746/ACCO-Premi...) for large documents.

Use https://www.officedepot.com/a/products/543712/Office-Depot-B... for smaller amounts of notes of loose leaf paper.

5. Prefer cheap 70-sheet notebooks. Spend a few minutes with automatic counting machine to label every page: page1 on the front, and implicitly page 1.5 on the back. Only label the fronts of any notebook. Rarely use the back sheet as additional room, but prefer to use new pages.

6. Use notebooks like the FAT filesystem. Write linked lists of subjects. Ex: one set of running notes could be page 4, page 7, page 9, 9.5, 20. Keep the first two sheets (1, 1.5, 2, and 2.5) as reserved for your table of contents / page numbers of your 'files'.

7. Learn the art of rewriting notes. Delete old notes and rewrite them into better organization as you work forward. Anything worth writing is likely worth rewriting.

8. Write so much that most of your writing is trash. That's okay, simply skip the trash during your rewriting passes. You won't know what is or isn't trash until 6 months from now anyway so write everything down.

9. I prefer pencil. But a nice Pentel Kerry. Keep a pocket notebook and the pencil always with you. Rewrite notes from pocket notebook as per earlier rules.

10. Shop at Jetpens.com. or maybe not, you might buy too many things lol. I do admit that impulse buying a 70-page notebook from grocery stores / Walmart / pharmacies is highly important to me. Knowing how to work with a 70-page wire notebook is important if only because they're EVERYWHERE and dirt cheap. Your more permanent notes deserve a more expensive journal (bonus points if they are already prenumbered like LEUCHTTURM1917)

crq-yml• 2 years ago

I too have my own preferences. What I've figured out about myself is that I like to flip between "practice" materials and "archival".

Practice notes are more like your preferences: 70-pager subject notebooks, pencil or ballpoint, clips and manila folders. Those are better for drawing in, because they are thin enough and transparent enough to trace through, and therefore you can refine a doodle into a more developed illustration without leaving the notebook. To go smaller, index cards are very portable and stay rigid enough to work outdoors on improvised surfaces. Those are what I like when I want to build up quick reference.

The "archival" materials are art projects: if you've really developed an idea, make it beautiful. This can be 80% tracing off the practice notes through a graphite transfer. Or it can go straight to digital/typed.

I don't aim for linked systems of notes at all. What I've found is that either I copy it all into the one place I need, or I don't need it. The copying is the important part. Once that's done, it's been "loaded" in my head as well, and I can move on.

voussoir9• 2 years ago

Thanks for taking the time to write out your system!

bbor2• 2 years ago

This thread is a gold mine. You really helped out another human today - thank you for taking the time.

freilanzer2• 2 years ago

Use https://www.officedepot.com/a/products/543712/Office-Depot-B... for smaller amounts of notes of loose leaf paper.
We are sorry, but Office Depot is currently not available in your country.
Please contact the site administrator

Can't even look at the fucking product, I guess.

dredmorbius• 2 years ago

Archival sites (Internet Archive / Archive Today) can be useful:

<https://archive.is/80fAh>

cladopa2• 2 years ago

I find "one color" notes extremely boring. My mind can't stand it for long. everything looks the same and my mind switches off fast. I use at least 10 different colours (randomly)changing colours per each paragraph or drawing, adding a unique and natural texture to every page so I can recognise them at a glance later.

I use 10 Staedtler 432 color pens. This way I can use the two sides of the sheet. If I use markers like the stabilo point 88 instead of only doing one side I would buy more dense sheets of paper like 100 grams per square meter or even 120 instead of using 80g/sqr meter.

Automatic feeder scanners like the Fujitsu Snapscan are one of the best investments I ever did. No need for one bit at all and you can even scan books cutting the pages. You can scan at least at 600p full color and at 1200 in black and white.

voussoir9• 2 years ago

Thanks for the comment! I like black for myself but I bet your notes look beautiful.

I agree with buying heavier paper. I recently bought some 100gsm paper for my notetaking at work, whereas I was previously stealing whatever they had in their printers. It makes a big difference in the enjoyment of writing, and now that I'm printing my own graph pattern on top of it I feel very liberated to use good paper stock. The graph paper I bought throughout school was never my favorite stuff.

bayindirh3• 2 years ago

I prefer to change color per note generally. My daily driver is an A5 notebook, which I divide to two columns for dense note taking. I carry a couple of fountain pens, and change colors per note. Allows me to visually divide notes at great speed.

My notebooks are generally are 70gsm, but high quality paper which can withstand wet fountain pens. For serious notes I have cellulose reactive or pigment inks which can't be removed from page without destroying it.

sevensor3• 2 years ago

I have a similar setup, including the A5 notebook and fountain pens. I alternated colors for a while, but lately I've taken to using a stub nib with flamboyant ink to make a header for each note (meeting / subject plus date), and a big piston-filler with an extra fine nib and a more sober ink for the actual contents. I'm far too lazy to keep a table of contents, so this makes it easy to leaf through and find what I'm looking for. Plus I rarely have to stop and fill pens.

thegrizzlyking• 2 years ago

Rocketbook is a good alternative.

https://getrocketbook.com/

humanfromearth9• 2 years ago

The front page says to use Pilot Frixion pens. Aren't these toxic (to high levels of lead, iirc)? Are there any other pen types one could use with these notebooks?

michaelanckaert• 2 years ago

35$ for a notebook? I got nice notebooks for $5 each at some discount store. To each his own but sometimes the product is _not_ worth the price.

bbor2• 2 years ago

Beautiful notes, well done. I’ve just discovered the utility of a notebook and pen for SWE being a long-time heavy user of markdown typed notes. Your arguments in favor of loose leaf paper are quite convincing, though the finality of a notebook can be nice for brainstorming purposes.

Now we just need to setup an over-shoulder camera or two, some autonomous LLM interpreters built for ubiquitous (aka not distracting) feedback, maybe a small laser projector, baby you’ve got a stew going…

Greamy• 2 years ago

I always liked the idea of taking notes on paper, but honestly, after uni, I kind of stopped taking them in that format for personal notes as I felt like I never found whatever I needed when I needed it.

In the end, a mix of digitally hadwritten notes in Nebo, and logseq seemed to work best for me.

philoinvestor2• 2 years ago

Hands down one of the most important things for high productivity and thinking.

I remember a line that said something like.

"I don't write on paper, I THINK on paper."

bayindirh3• 2 years ago

I don't write on paper, I THINK on paper.

I do the same and many people don't seem the understand that.

philoinvestor2• 2 years ago

Sad how few people actually have a consistent "thinking on paper" discipline.

lannisterstark• 2 years ago

Use quality pens that produce deep black lines, not cheap pens that produce off-black or hollow lines.

Eh, nah. Nothing wrong with off-blacks. Gray colors as well as other colors are fantastic when written with a fountain pen, even muted ones.

gtroja• 2 years ago

I like using A3 (folded as 2 a4 sheets) foolscap paper, plain white not ruled. They're usually light (56gr/m2) so they're pretty transparent, making convinient to use graph paper under them as line guides. To assemble them I use a manilla folder for 3 staples (couldn't find the exact name but its like [0]) and 3 binders; In the end they're like this: https://twitter.com/gtroja_/status/1489717293508665349

[0] https://www.kalunga.com.br/prod/pasta-280g-kraft-pardo-225x3...

sevensor3• 2 years ago

When I was in semiconductor manufacturing, I kept a set of notes in LaTeX, with a different chapter for each process layer. I'd print these out and annotate in the margins. Whenever the margins filled up, I would transcribe my marginalia and print a new version. This strategy works best when you're in-office and somebody else is paying for paper and toner. It's not effective in the context I'm in, but it worked great at the time.

Notes on paper (2023)

Related Stories