The King of Curcumin: a case study in consequences of large-scale research fraud

https://reeserichardson.blog/2024/01/30/the-king-of-curcumin-a-case-study-in-the-consequences-of-large-scale-research-fraud/

by jeroenhd • 2 years ago

86 58 2 years ago

reeserichardson.blog

suprjami• 2 years ago

Is there a current summary of what Curcumin can actually do?

Mistletoe• 2 years ago

Curcumin doesn’t work well as a therapeutic agent for any disease. Though it is safe for human consumption in most forms and will show activity in essentially any in vitro assay you throw at it (via a process known as assay interference), no well-powered clinical trials have ever found it to be an effective medicine.

BlueTemplar3• 2 years ago

…and none of this mentions the recent discovery that turmeric supplements were being cut or substituted with lead chromate, which apparently, if surprisingly, is cheaper. At least it is indisputably bioactive….

alephnullshabba• 2 years ago

It seems reasonable to assume it does virtually nothing. Like nearly every trendy non-rx supplement that has been around for this long, if there were any substantive medical benefits that could be demonstrated empirically in clinical drug trials, a prescription variant would have emerged. (As was the case with prescription fish oil, and this is in spite of most fish oil on the supplement market being of extremely low quality and consumed as a result of outright nonsensical medical claims)

user_78324• 2 years ago

I think the important distinction is whether someone is already very healthy or not.

Like nearly every trendy non-rx supplement that has been around for this long, if there were any substantive medical benefits that could be demonstrated empirically in clinical drug trials, a prescription variant would have emerged

This is unfortunately not completely correct. Vitamin D supplements don't appear to do anything to me, even though my doc prescribed it. But NAC (for example) is not commonly prescribed even though many people have reported a reduction of OCD behaviour. L Tyrosine can be almost as effective as ADHD medication for some, yet even though it is well known in nootropic circles the doctor will rather prescribe a medical stimulant.

The reason is probably just "FDA approval"/safety in most cases, but make no mistake, current prescriptions are years to decades behind current medical research. (I can expand more if you'd like.)

Beijinger2• 2 years ago

Well, there is a lower incidence of Alzheimer in India.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/article-abstr....

Could by genetics. who knows. By the way, many PhD educated chemists I know, take Fish oil. Including me :-)

perlclutcher• 2 years ago

My go-to site for questions like this is examine.com.

https://examine.com/supplements/curcumin/

So yeah, like sibling said, it doesn't seem to do much.

user_78324• 2 years ago

From the linked website, right at the top:

Curcumin is the primary bioactive substance in turmeric. It has anti-inflammatory properties, and there is decent evidence that it can alleviate various conditions, from chronic pain to depression. Curcumin has poor bioavailability on its own, and thus it is often combined with Black Pepper or with lipids.

I'm not sure how you got " it doesn't seem to do much"?

stevenAthompson5• 2 years ago

I took it as a supplement, mixed with piperine to help it pass into the blood stream. For me it was a mild stimulant like nicotine, without the addictive part. I was smarter and more nervous when I took it.

Those are the only effects I can personally attest to.

stevenAthompson5• 2 years ago

Actually, I did lose some weight over that time. Correlation may not be causation in that case.

mtlmtlmtlmtl• 2 years ago

Basically nothing since you just poop all of it out. There are some very few cases of liver damage associated with curcumin. No meaningful clinical applications have been found in non-fraudulent studies.

nerdponx• 2 years ago

Turmeric is magical with fried onions.

Aurornis3• 2 years ago

Curcumin, the compound, seems to do a lot of little things in studies when injected into rats at high doses. You can find reports of everything from anti-inflammatory to anti-depressant like effects in mouse/rat models.

Curcumin, the substance you can buy on Amazon and take orally, seems to do very little. Not much of it gets into your blood so there isn't much comparison to the mouser/rat studies. There are formulations that try to get more into your system (piperine or various lipid encapsulations) but little real-world evidence.

From watching forums on and off for years, I can say that nobody seems impressed with it for depression or anxiety (beyond some short placebo periods). I have seen some people claim that certain formulations reduce inflammation for them, but they've come with caveats that it can also reduce things like libido at those doses.

ChrisArchitect• 2 years ago

Alot of this around today?

Related earlier:

Fake scientific papers push research credibility to crisis point https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39241643

The scientists fighting the epidemic of fraudulent science research

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39244601

dang• 2 years ago

Yes—usually it's better to post follow-up links in the related ongoing thread, so the discussion doesn't get split.

Researchers taking on fraudulent science - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39244601 - Feb 2024 (57 comments)

progbits• 2 years ago

However, self-correction has a high cost in the present: [...] thousands of cancer patients enrolled in clinical trials for ineffective treatments, and countless people who have eschewed expensive and invasive but effective cancer treatment in favor of a store-bought spice, encouraged by research steeped in lies.

If intentional fraud can be proven (not just mistake or incompetence; doctored figures seem like sufficient evidence as that doesn't happen accidentally) the author should face jail time.

MattGaiser2• 2 years ago

It has been complained about loudly in politically involved circles (at least the ones in run in) that fraud is generally under pursued.

In the UK, fraud is 40% of the crime and just 1% of police resources [0]. Wouldn’t surprise me if Canada is the same.

[0] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64539087faf4a...

pinkmuffinere• 2 years ago

The quote that I think most people will be interested in:

“ Curcumin doesn’t work well as a therapeutic agent for any disease. Though it is safe for human consumption in most forms and will show activity in essentially any in vitro assay you throw at it (via a process known as assay interference), no well-powered clinical trials have ever found it to be an effective medicine.”

According to well run studies, Turmeric does ~~nothing~~ for your ailment.

ganeshkrishnan3• 2 years ago

There are lots of studies that does that. Here is one https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5664031/

crackedbassoon3• 2 years ago

That is an uncritical review, not a study.

jdietrich• 2 years ago

The article we're discussing explains that the literature on curcumin is effectively poisoned, because Aggarwal has published so many widely-cited papers.

The paper you've posted directly cites Aggarwal five times. Most of the references that aren't by Aggarwal cite him. The entire literature on curcumin is a house of cards built on fraudulent research.

gmd632• 2 years ago

I find it concerning that, proportional to the rigorous selectivity in academic admissions, the expulsion process for misconduct like this is lax or apparently in this case nonexistent.

This guy was selected to be trained in biochemistry above so many people, all to culminate in what might be a net negative effect on society. That he's still giving talks and conducting research with funds instead of someone more deserving disappoints me.

MattGaiser2• 2 years ago

There are always those who doubt that a person is truly a fraud. Or those who are willing to take a contrarian chance.

Even the former CEO of Enron can get investors to take his call asking for investment. Being synonymous with fraud and spending a decade in prison for fraud is no barrier.

He is probably in the top 1% of being able to raise investment for a business.

Andrew Wakefield, the guy who claimed vaccines cause autism, remains a common and presumably paid speaker in the anti vaccine circuit.

pants2• 2 years ago

The author states that 2,000+ studies on curcumin are published annually, but basically dismisses the compound as ever potentially being effective by citing a single study.

I think more evidence is needed by the author to make that assertion. The thousands of research scientists behind those studies aren't idiots nor are they all paid off by Big Curcumin. It's hard to believe they're not aware of the criticisms and just willfully wasting their time.

ganeshkrishnan3• 2 years ago

Also "Only some of these studies were about curcumin specifically, but most concerned similar natural products."

so the retracted articles are NOT about curcumin specifically? and why where they retracted? because they were false or because they were plagiarized?

ta9883• 2 years ago

In the case of this author it was both, they made up and reused content.

eviks• 2 years ago

Are you aware of the paper mills that churn out way more than a mere 2k of junk, and do you consider those researchers wasting their time or responding to the incentives set by the Little Non-Curcumins within their profession?

gmd632• 2 years ago

The thousands of research scientists behind those studies aren't idiots nor are they all paid off by Big Curcumin.

I think more evidence is needed by the author to make that assertion.

graemep2• 2 years ago

I assume by "single study" you mean this: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.jmedchem.6b00975

If you read that it explains that despite all that research there has not been a single double blind trial that has shown it works. It also explains the chemistry of the compound and why effects shown in vitro are unlikely to work in vivo.

hackerlight• 2 years ago

"More than 2,000 studies involving the compound are published annually. Many of these studies bear signs of fraud and involvement of paper mills."

Attummm• 2 years ago

It's actually normal in science to have a back-and-forth of positive, negative, and neutral studies about any given topic.

Minute changes in each study, within different contexts, can have significant impacts.

If there is only one side presented on any topic, be wary of the research.

colordrops3• 2 years ago

Everyone in this thread is talking about curcumin in the bloodstream, but my doctor insists its benefit is in the gut, addressing issues with the microbiome.

ta9883• 2 years ago

There is little evidence of that.

But there is a ton of evidence that eating more fibers does help. And this should be favored before any random supplement of more often that not dubious quality.

colordrops3• 2 years ago

Do you have any analysis of this? I'm finding plenty of studies, but don't know what "little evidence" means in the scentific world as I'm not scientist, so I defer to my doctor.

His recommendation was to us the spice copiously in cooking. I'm a vegan and get tons of fiber, which he also recommended (both through food and supplementation) but thought I was mostly good on that front. He did have me take guar gum on the side.

mips_r4300i• 2 years ago

I was also told this, but my doctor said the biggest benefit most people can get immediately is to start avoiding foods that react negatively on a sensitivity panel. Or just do an elimination diet with a long period of gradual reintroduction.

Did your doctor also have any other suggestions?

colordrops3• 2 years ago

He didn't mention sensitivity panels, but I've read they are controversial and many think that they are misleading.

Regarding what my doctor told me, I was seeing him for gut issues, and he put me on Boswellia extract (just for one bottle worth) for inflammation, guar gum starting at 1/4 tsp then graduating up to 1 tsp, and eating a lot of red fruits and vegetables throughout the day, e.g. beets/beet greens, red cabbage, pomegranates, cranberries etc.

skhameneh2• 2 years ago

Curcumin doesn’t work well as a therapeutic agent for any disease.

That's bullshit, curcumin is effective against staph infections.

skhameneh2• 2 years ago

Was I downvoted for calling the the exert from the article bullshit, because I didn't link evidence, or because you disagree with my statement?

I stand by what I said, I've used tumeric for some minor infections. Antibiotic ointments (that are petroleum based) do not penetrate the skin adequately and I find tumeric paste to be much more effective in some instances.

There is a lot of evidence for the efficacy of curcumin. Aside from what evidence is valid or not, my own experiences confirm efficacy.

The King of Curcumin: a case study in consequences of large-scale research fraud

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