Harvard President Claudine Gay resigns

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/02/business/claudine-gay-harvard-president-resigns/index.html

by Tomte • 3 years ago

66 187 3 years ago

chewmieser5• 3 years ago

The plagiarism is really unacceptable, but the political pressure targeting academia makes me sad. IMO this really should have been handled internally at Harvard - not on a national stage.

JumpCrisscross11• 3 years ago

this really should have been handled internally at Harvard - not on a national stage

Isn’t that the Corporation’s fault? If they’d handled it internally there wouldn’t have been a public scandal.

chewmieser5• 3 years ago

How Harvard handles it is up to them. They're a private university. If they choose to stand behind Gay then that's their and their student's choice.

Nothing about this scandal was public until they were brought in front of congress to talk about antisemitism.

paulpauper2• 3 years ago

It's not sad. we need to hold these administrators to the same standards they hold their students or public. nothing political about it. Students get expelled, auto-fail for plagiarism.

chewmieser5• 3 years ago

It's sad that this is this even a national topic of discussion instead of an internal investigation and change at the university itself.

goodguy29495• 3 years ago

It's natural that universities will experience political accountability as they become more politically active. Education consumes a lot of resources, it's only natural that it's the subject of a lot of scrutiny.

chewmieser5• 3 years ago

Why do you think universities are more politically active? They have always been a safe-haven for ideas that go against the fray. I would argue they have always been "politically active."

bsaul4• 3 years ago

Plagiarism is really the least of my concerns in that case. The fact that a university president had to use convoluted statements to answer something as basic as "is calling for the murder of jews against the rules of university", is, IMHO, the most troubling event happening to the american university world in a while.

chewmieser5• 3 years ago

Are you for free speech or against it? Where is the line drawn?

These are hard questions to answer, especially in the manner they were "asked." And it's probably not exclusively up to Gay to decide & answer them.

dekhn22• 3 years ago

I would ask if you apply the same rules regardless of the subject (Jew, Islamic, North Korean)?

"Is calling for the murder of Osama Bin Laden against the rules of university"?

itishappy• 3 years ago

Your biggest concern is a convoluted but "legally correct" (as determined by the legal director of the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression) reply given to lawmakers while testifying in a congressional hearing?

For reference, Will Creeley (the aforementioned legal director of FIRE) agrees: "it does depend on context."

Here's her actual response:

The rules around bullying and harassment are quite specific and if the context in which that language is used amounts to bullying and harassment, then we take, we take action against it.

Which part of her response do you take issue with?

A free speech absolutist would argue that everything should be permissible. Gay leaned that way, but suggested that certain speech might cross the line into action. Are you arguing for a blanket ban on certain forms of expression?

silisili2• 3 years ago

The problem is that they did handle it internally, by doing nothing and ignoring everyone.

I follow Ackman and he's been absolutely laser focused on getting her out. To an unhealthy degree, even. I guess he can sleep, finally. Anyways, he revealed a lot during this, and gave 'insider' info that basically Harvard didn't do anything because they didn't want to seem told to do so. That's basically the attitude my 12 year old has.

AnimalMuppet• 3 years ago

That's basically the attitude my 12 year old has.

True, but... for a public institution that leans left to give in to pressure from the right is going to mean the right thinks they can push that institution around with pressure. It's to open the door to a lot more pressure.

Of course, the right way out of this dilemma is to, once it's brought to your attention, ignore the pressure but handle it like you should have handled it, and with public statements of status. "We are aware of the allegations. We have formed an independent committee to investigate. Until that investigation terminates, we have no further statement." And then a public statement when it has terminated. And so on. Then you're doing the right thing, but not responding to pressure.

bsaul4• 3 years ago

do you have any link on that "ackman" affirmation ? First time i hear about that person

fzeroracer5• 3 years ago

I imagine this is partly because he really, really badly wanted to doxx the Harvard undergraduates who signed a letter blaming Israel for their actions so that he could create a blacklist of all those people and ensure they're never hired. Inadvertently proving them correct that expressing those kinds of views is very dangerous to your livelihood. So he took to lashing out at the university directly instead.

high_derivative3• 3 years ago

You cannot have it both ways. Universities get billions in public funding and then turn around using that money to fund political activists masquerading as academics. Disciplines like sociology are now very open about the fact that academics need to be openly activist to advance. It's disingenuous to then complain about political pressure.

dekhn22• 3 years ago

Even though I'm liberal and generally vote democratic, and have enjoyed the liberal nature of academia, I think political advocacy by people in power in academia has gone too far and political pressure is probably the most effective way to help guide our universities back to being shining beacons of thought.

And questions like this should be addressed on a national stage because of the specific position that Harvard holds, both historically, now, and financially. It was clear the Board was more than happy to try to paper this over as privately as they could.

porkbeer2• 3 years ago

Political Pressure is how we got here.

infamouscow4• 3 years ago

According to Claudine Gay, in accordance with Harvard's policies these are perfectly acceptable on campus:

- "Disgraced former Harvard President Claudine Gay is finally back picking cotton where she belongs"

- "I think the black students should be picking cotton, not studying at Harvard"

Those quotes are also protected under the 1st amendment. Regardless, they're also vile, and the merits of the expression are so utterly vacuous that it has no substance for mind-expanding endeavors that universities claim to be for. Similar to calling for a genocide.

Claudine Gay is a mediocre person who should genuinely be embarrassment for setting back everything she claims to stand for by a decade, if not more.

cscurmudgeon3• 3 years ago

At a much lower ranked university, I had friend who forgot quotes around a couple of quotations of prior art that made it seem like she copied with citations. She had to spend an extra semester to submit a new thesis.

It is alarming how soft academia and Harvard have been on Claudine Gay.

cscurmudgeon3• 3 years ago

Are you not more worried by Harvard threatening journalists?

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2023/12/25/harvard-threat...

infamouscow4• 3 years ago

Harvard first has to prove the statements are false in a court of law, which is (likely) impossible. It also drags this whole situation out for years, causing a whole lot more irreparable damage.

high_derivative3• 3 years ago

Unfortunately, nothing will change until the system that produced this changes too. No doubt she will retain her tenured position.

matthewdgreen7• 3 years ago

As she should.

JumpCrisscross11• 3 years ago

she should

Why? What work has she done to deserve tenure?

high_derivative3• 3 years ago

It's quite apparent from everything that has come to light that she got tenured for the same reason she got to be Harvard president. Merit was not one of the reasons.

dekhn22• 3 years ago

Plagiarists- which Claudine Gay is- should lose their tenure, because their tenure was predicated on them being legitimate scholars, and plagiarists are not legitimate scholars.

It was established that she has a skimpy record, and nearly every one of those contains near-duplication of text without attribution. How could you ever trust an academic after it was exposed that they did that (intentionally)?

It's hard to be an academic but not plagiarizing is rule #1 or #2.

JumpCrisscross11• 3 years ago

nothing will change until the system that produced this changes

Students chanting “from the river to the sea” while cheering on a terrorist attack may be the shark jump that prompts a systemic change. (Note: there is a huge difference between advocating for Palestinians and supporting Hamas. There is a huger one between supporting Hamas and supporting the October 7th attacks.)

insickness2• 3 years ago

I don't support censoring anything students say, no matter how objectionable. Someone will always find something objectionable.

Ajay-p• 3 years ago

I guess I am not shocked by the plagiarism but I am disturbed by the legal threats Harvard sent to the New York Post. Harvard seems to act more like a bully the wealthier it has gotten.

anotherhue• 3 years ago

Any sufficiently large pool of capital works to further itself.

xnx• 3 years ago

I haven't followed this closely, but from what I've read her resume was less impressive than previous people in the position. The standard should be exceedingly high to lead the most prestigious school in the country(/world?) and get paid $900K/year.

zephrx1111• 3 years ago

If I hire unqualified people and pay them high salaries, does it count as bribery?

Kreutzer• 3 years ago

There’s only one reason she was forced out and it had nothing to do with plagiarism.

iteratethis3• 3 years ago

Looking in from a European perspective, the congressional hearing blew my mind in several ways.

Calling for the genocide of a demographic is permissible?

When such a thing happens, it's "bullying"? Bullying!? Are you kidding me? Imagine being the target demographic, attending school every day. A mob is outside calling for your death and everybody like you. I would not experience that as a case of "hurt feelings", I'd be terrified. Fearing for my life.

By comparison, this type of speech likely lands you in jail in many countries.

And the inconsistency. These universities are well known for being supremely protective of their favorite minorities. Less favorite minorities though can be threatened to be eradicated just fine? It's an open admission that identity politics is very real.

caeril• 3 years ago

Looking in from a European perspective Bullying!? Are you kidding me?

American public school perspective, here, but death threats were a normal part of the bullying equation growing up. Sure, it was mostly "we're going to kick your ass after school", but there was the occasional "we're going to put you in the hospital or the morgue" and just enough follow-through to make the threats credible.

Calling this bullying isn't inaccurate, the severity of bullying has been downplayed. It isn't just stealing your lunch money and calling you ugly.

Bullying is exactly the correct term for this. You just don't appreciate how evil bullies actually are.

iteratethis3• 3 years ago

Perhaps it's due to English being my second language, but I equate the situation of a call for genocide as a direct call to violence, or something extremely close to that.

There's examples in other parts of the world where this has led to actual deaths. When you speak those words, you're green-lighting the action. The target now has to hope that nobody is crazy enough to actually do it.

These are life or death matters.

I accept that freedom of speech is more generous in the US, but it still does not add up. If this is mere (extreme) bullying and not disallowed, it should apply to all. Meaning, you can call for the death of anyone, any group, and the consequences are the same: none.

We all know that's not the case, and that's what should be fixed in institutions.

1vuio0pswjnm7• 3 years ago

"Gay said in her letter she would return to a faculty position "and to the scholarship and teaching that are the lifeblood of what we do.""

pseudo0• 3 years ago

If they can't fire her, they should assign her to teach Academic Integrity 101 every single year until it finally sticks.

Harvard President Claudine Gay resigns

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