Girls and Computers

http://rmurphey.com/blog/2012/03/25/girls-and-computers/

by taylorbuley • 14 years ago

230 84 14 years ago

hzy• 14 years ago

I'm not sure if I can see the correlation between the story being told and the fact that the author is female. It seems to be briefly mentioned in the first and last paragraphs.

kmm• 14 years ago

I assumed the point was that it doesn't matter. Kids get interested in computers regardless of their gender.

But you're right, it probably isn't the most descriptive title.

rmurphey3• 14 years ago

Yes, the point of the post was that it had a lot more to do with being a kid with a computer than with being male or female. The point of the title was that it was a story of ... a girl and her computers :)

joe_the_user2• 14 years ago

The argument of the article is that when computers were new, they were new to everyone of either genders whereas at present gender-based expectations can take over in expectations and decisions about who would play or work with computers.

"In some ways, it is like the very ubiquity of technology has led us back to a world where socially normative gender roles take hold all over again"

bermanoid3• 14 years ago

It's a nice story, but it sounds just-so to me.

Probably because most women that grew up in the 80s did not in significant numbers show the same fascination with computers that the author did. In fact, the current state of the mid-to-senior level job market reflects the interest level from exactly that time period, and it's just as lopsided in favor of men as it's ever been.

novalis• 14 years ago

I saw it as a female who loved computers since she was little sort of correlation.

msbarnett3• 14 years ago

> I'm not sure if I can see the correlation between the story being told and the fact that the author is female.

I saw a quip the other day that was along the lines of "Hacker News posters consistently make the mistake of assuming that, because a post shows up on Hacker News, the author is somehow 'making a big deal out of it'".

The "correlation" is that the author, after a spate of sexism stories regarding women in tech, got to thinking about how she got started as a woman in tech, and wrote a blog post sharing the story.

It's a slice of a story of someone's life, nothing more, nothing less. Don't try to read too much into it looking for larger correlations and grand overarching Big Deal Points.

kiiski• 14 years ago

You're probably right, but the post is titled "Girls and Computers", which kind of seems to imply some deep, and general, theorizing about girls and computers.

Tichy• 14 years ago

I think that is kind of the point.

roguecoder3• 14 years ago

It's a woman's story. The fact that gender isn't relevant is the point. So many people in "the software/start up/tech community" continue to make it relevant by shoehorning human sexuality onto things that should be about the joy of technology, of making things happen, of being real live sorcerers.

mml• 14 years ago

It's interesting to me how little difference there is between her experience and my own (male) early experience with computers.

Though on second thought, it's not at all surprising.

roguecoder3• 14 years ago

I think we have a tendency to assume "people like us" are, well, people like us. Some things are more universal than we think.

ChuckMcM4• 14 years ago

The thing that stands out in many of these stories are these three points:

   * Accessible price point,
   * Instantly usable to write code, 
   * a place to go when the capabilities ran out.

It is very challenging to reliably buy this today. When my daughter wanted a computer a gave her a VAX 4000/VLC, it had BASIC, C, FORTRAN, and COBOL installed and could run adventure. I got it for free from a junk pile.

I'm going to try and fix that. [edited for formatting]

leftnode• 14 years ago

You could probably easily buy a computer with Linux on it today from Ebay for around $100. Installing Linux means you have a wealth of ways to instantly write code (gcc, g++, ruby, python, php, perl, and a browser where you can write Javascript) and there are plenty of places to go when it's capabilities run out.

I think it's even easier to buy all of this today.

Or, have I totally misunderstood what you've said?

ChuckMcM4• 14 years ago

Or, have I totally misunderstood what you've said?

Sort of. Do your experiment (build a linux box) and put it in front of a kid with no exposure to computers (other than as appliances) try this with kids from 6 to 16.

As you get toward 16 you will start getting better engagement, most will figure its too confusing and stop.

I've run the experiment with Arduinio, even with its pretty straight forward GUI there is still some serious complexities around the notion of compiling, downloading, driver compatibility, etc etc.

One of the things I will do with a RasberryPi is look at building an embedded BASIC box. Hook a keyboard to it, plug it into a TV's HDMI port and turn it on. Blammo, BASIC prompt. (If I can swing it it would be a Python prompt but I digress). Type in the code (using BASIC syntax sorry)

   100 CLEAR
   110 DRAW(100, 100, 200, 100, "WHITE")
   120 DRAW(200, 100, 200, 200, "WHITE")
   130 DRAW(100, 200, 200, 200, "WHITE")
   140 DRAW(100, 100, 100, 200, "WHITE")
   150 FOR I = 100 TO 200 STEP 10
   160 FOR K = 200 TO 100 STEP -10
   170 DRAW(I, K, K, I, "BLUE")
   180 DRAW(K, I, I, K, "GREEN")
   190 NEXT K
   200 NEXT I
   210 END

Type run, and blammo, drawing pictures on a screen.

Why pictures? Being able to draw graphics is a compelling thing for folks, they like to do it, it touches their inner finger painting. It compels them to think about 'steps' and 'math' and stuff.

Doing graphics in Linux is a PITA. The notion of a system which throws away everything except a way to explore through programming, and has access to all of the capabilities of that system, is key. The programming needs to be accessible. I could be K&R C as easily as BASIC but it would need a very simple build environment (code for NOT gcc).

Something that with a manual of no more than a couple of hundred pages, can engage a student to explore it with programming. They don't know what programming is so complaining about types (for example) just demotivates them.

naner• 14 years ago

Installing Linux means you have a wealth of ways to instantly write code (gcc, g++, ruby, python, php, perl, and a browser where you can write Javascript) and there are plenty of places to go when it's capabilities run out.

It's easy to "instantly write code" on Linux just like it's easy to "instantly change the brakes" on my car. (I say this as a long-time Linux user and developer.)

Squeak is the only "operating system" I've seen or used that is setup to instantly write code. Actually, I take that back. IIRC they jerry-rigged the OLPC to behave similarly with Python.

Jun8• 14 years ago

I would add one thing:

  * impoverished environment

This, I think is crucial. Given a Linux machine with a rich GUI or an iPad, kids focus on the eye candy and start playing with those things. A (relatively) limited environment at the same time focuses them and makes them creative.

richardk• 14 years ago

I couldn't agree more, I can't imagine how much more I could have picked up at that young age if I'd just had, say, a tty, instead of endlessly playing with window themes, notification sounds and so on.

Another thing that's important though, you need to be able to make the computer do fun things pretty easily, otherwise you'll (as a kid) loose interest.

scythe• 14 years ago

Start kids on an empty Fluxbox, let them learn to add all the bells and whistles they can. Eye candy can motivate creativity pretty well, and Fluxbox can get pretty cool with the right addons. Some of the menu-making is almost like coding; it's almost an introduction to formal languages.

Actually, Openbox might be the thing these days. I'm not sure. Definitely not LXDE -- that's preconfigured.

GFischer2• 14 years ago

One of my favorite game designers is fond of the mantra "Restriction breeds creativity"

There's also the classic "Necessity is the mother of invention".

femto2• 14 years ago

I'd add another thing, both good and bad: turning if off returned it to a known state.

This meant you could experiment with it, to the point where it broke, secure in the knowledge that recovery was as far as a quick flick of the power switch. The negative was that for complex projects, where you wanted to preserve the state of the machine, you had to play cassette roulette.

ht_th• 14 years ago

I don't know. I've taught computer science in high school in the late 2000s and there still were students who dabbled in code even though they had access to the most wonderful GUIs and games. When I was young and the first computer entered our house it didn't have a nice GUI. It was dos and basic all the way down. From my siblings I am the only one who did develop any kind of interest in coding. The others were given the same opportunities as I (maybe even more so) but it didn't take.

There is a curiosity about how to get computers to do what you want that is independent of graphical capabilities and attractive games, social networks, and what not. And that curiosity somehow isn't given to all. Similarly not all are into woodworking, gardening, knitting, and so on.

(By the way, your impoverished-point seem to work for knitting/sewing as well. Why bother if you can get all the clothes and accessories from the shop downtown or the internet for almost nothing? Still there are people enthusiastic about knitting/sewing.)

rogerbinns5• 14 years ago

A friend wants to get a "computer" for her 10 year old daughter and I'm having trouble with what to recommend. The alternatives are a "netbook/mini" with Windows, same but repartitioned to also have a Linux partition or an Android tablet. They live half way around the world from me which makes support and interaction hard (timezone issues, hard to troubleshoot when you can't see the screen).

All 3 solutions run Skype, let you create and manipulate documents and play games. Windows requires by far the most system administration (virus checkers, frequent updates, driver issues, crapware etc) but has the largest software library. Android has the least amount of system administration (essentially none) but is the least flexible (eg document creation typically requires being online) and Android Market isn't available in their country making acquiring new software hard. Linux has the most flexibility but is also the hardest to use (remember the target is a 10 year old whose parents can't even spell Linux, not you). Netbooks also have the worst hardware support under Linux due to proprietary hardware.

An Android tablet would seem to be the best solution when coupled with App Inventor. Sadly App Inventor doesn't run on Android itself so you have to have a non-Android computer to do your development work.

I could of course setup emulators so she gets a Sinclair Spectrum and Apple //e and can learn just how I did, but things have moved on.

nooneelse2• 14 years ago

AIDE runs on android tablets. Perhaps not as easy as App Inventor but no other computer needed. But I don't think I would recommend Android for someone in a country in which they can't access the Market/Play/whatever-they-call-it-next-month.

ChuckMcM4• 14 years ago

See the Maximite link below, its pretty straight forward.

You've touched upon some of the key issues. But let me walk through them with you and perhaps we'll get to a similar place ...

"All 3 solutions run Skype, let you create and manipulate documents and play games."

You've outlined some desirable features of this 'computer.' Skype, documents, and game playing. There is a trap here which I've discovered and that is with price. If a computer is 'expensive,' and any new laptop, netbook, or desktop computer will fall into that category, it has to have things which justify its existence/purchase. On the other hand, if the computer does not cost very much, people often dismiss it as a toy. (We have many exemplars from LeapFrog and others which fit this category).

If you had the equivalent of an Apple II (but upgraded to some recent microprocessors) you could have a computer which was programmable (and games of the type that make you think versus fast twitch) could be made for it, and on which you could edit documents but not change fonts or any of that stuff necessarily. And it cost less than $50 and the only 'breakable' parts were the keyboard and the TV you hooked it up to, it might be a different story.

"An Android tablet would seem to be the best solution when coupled with App Inventor. Sadly App Inventor doesn't run on Android itself so you have to have a non-Android computer to do your development work."

This is one of those things that is an issue for me as well. When I tried to use Arduinioes for teaching programming you run into a barrier of getting two computers rather than just one. And sadly the ecosystem of windows, Linux, and MacOS make compatibility a real drain.

"I could of course setup emulators so she gets a Sinclair Spectrum and Apple //e and can learn just how I did, but things have moved on."

I would hear more about 'moved on' ? Do you mean that you have moved on? Or that computer science has moved on? The beauty of these simple systems is that they are simple. They teach you to 'think' computer and that is tremendously powerful when you attack more modern systems. Sort of like a lawn mower motor on a tube frame with a centrifugal clutch isn't really a 'motorcycle' (its a minibike) but it is a great teaching tool on the concepts involved.

One of the areas that could use help on today is graphics. Back in the day there were some great pre-packaged graphics chips with full documentation that you could use to attach to your microprocessor. Sadly those days are gone. The good news however is that nearly every 'intro to FPGAs' class has a part where you build a video chip out of an FPGA. And they are now as cheap as those old customs chips. I've spec'd out a design which is a dual buffered HDMI output with a sprite based HW cursor. Its surprisingly cost effective (parts wise), and since it doesn't care about HDCP compliance its actually pretty simple.

With an open access graphics subsystem, a modest ARM core CPU, some memory, and USB plugs for "disks" and "keyboards" I think we could build a system that works well for learning about computers from 'Wow' to pretty sophisticated data structures. But that is getting ahead of myself.

jk• 14 years ago

In my experience, if you introduce kids to Linux, they learn pretty fast.

In my college days, I used to help students of a government school. It is a very undeveloped area and kids don't have computers at home. All school computers ran Linux and students (aged 11-12) didn't face any difficulty in using Linux.

I used to give this example to my classmates when they blamed Linux :-)

Tooluka2• 14 years ago

You are solving the wrong problem. What you are doing, is searching for an environment for a person unfamiliar with computers. This should be a second step really. The first step should be (I think) "what should I buy for 10 YEAR OLD". First of all - I think that netbooks AND notebooks (from 7" to 20") for a child is a bad idea. Netbooks (7" to 10") is especially bad idea. You should consider her eyesight - small, high dpi display very close to the eyes is bad. Consider scoliosis probability - because keyboard is fixed right below the screen and can't disconnected (except 1-2 special rare big notebooks). Consider RSI (repetitive strain injury) to hands, neck etc., hands especially. This can be caused by bad keyboard (all notebooks I think), screen keyboards (on extended use, like writing code, essays etc.), even bad mouse (cause hand position on the mouse is unnatural, it is a 90* turn from ideal position). Developed hand RSI is unbearably painful, considerably limits keyboard usage and heals very, very bad. This is just what I would consider. Ask a medic and he'll tell you more.

tl;dr No notebooks and probably tablets for 10 year old. Buy adjustable table, adjustable chair, classic desktop with some ergonomic keyboard and mouse (both with wrist support). Set up timed lockout on the PC, like 10 minutes every 1-2 hours. Lockout after 24:00 and lockout on total uptime per day. After that choose OS from your experience, it doesn't matter really (I think).

I promise, she'll thank you 15 years later.

inopinatus• 14 years ago

For me, many years ago, and living as I was in the UK at the time, the BBC Micro met those requirements and started me on a long and happy career/life in IT.

I believe this niche is one that the developers of the $35 Raspberry Pi intend to fill. Good luck to them.

mariuolo• 14 years ago

What year was that?

Akram• 14 years ago

I guess Children of Tech savvy parents become hackers...

Joeri• 14 years ago

I doubt it will be possible to recapture the golden age of early PC's and their ability to get kids programming. The computing landscape has changed, and educational practices must change with it. We have to assume kids will have ipads as their first computer and treat them accordingly.

Kids these days are web users first and foremost. You have to let them cross the gap between visiting sites and creating sites. There's plenty of opportunity for sites that let kids create stuff in javascript and share it with their friends. What's so different from animating a canvas using javascript and animating a tv screen using basic?

hetman• 14 years ago

A lot of the responses here seeking a modern alternative to this experience seem to be focusing on hardware. In a way that's not surprising but I think it's a bit of a shame. That's because I think we have a platform today that can rival the ease and immediate feedback of those early computers: the web browser. There are probably a couple things needed to complete the picture.

1) A nice basic library that can serve as an immediate stepping stone to the UI. There's probably some out there already that are very beginner friendly.

2) Some kind of REPL/IDE like browser extension to make it easy to dive in right away. Something a bit easier for kids to wrap their head around than the developer tools of today, but also incorporating a basic editor so they can edit in place, save files etc.

I'm not really sure about the form of (2) or how vital it is, but it certainly wouldn't hurt.

jbattle• 14 years ago

I'd second this suggestion. Another great 'feature' of this platform is that it's trivially easy for the learner to share his/her creations with friends.

Girls and Computers

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