Chili Oil Notes

https://uptointerpretation.com/posts/chili-oil-notes/

by hardwaregeek • 3 years ago

257 144 3 years ago

They talk about about how hot infusing causes the chili's to suspend in oil, I wonder if you could incorporate using a popcorn cannon somewhere in the infusion process.

civilitty3• 3 years ago

I’ve also thought about doing a really low and slow extraction, say by using a sous vide machine. You do run into food safety issues, since the chilies can contain botulism.

Sous vide was my first thought, since that avoids the evaporation and oxidation that decreases the intensity of the low and slow method. However I don't think botulism is any more of a concern here than any other sous vide dish and high heat doesn't kill botulism spores so it doesn't really matter how you cook the chilis.

Just keep it above 140F while infusing and keep it out of the <130F danger zone past a few hours. Quickly cool it below 45F using an ice bath after infusing if you're paranoid or cooking for someone that might be immunocompromised.

hardwaregeek6• 3 years ago

Yeah I might give it a shot (although I gave away my sous vide machine). But low and slow isn't always better for extraction. Coffee for instance extracts more with a fast infusion versus cold brew.

civilitty3• 3 years ago

Coffee extraction usually happens in a closed vessel where the volatiles aren’t as exposed to air and can’t as easily evaporate. The advantage of sous vide isn’t just the cooking temperature but the fact that the ingredients are completely sealed. It has a significant impact on many ingredients like chicken or carrots, which can stew in their own juices instead of reducing.

steve_adams_862• 3 years ago

I did sous vide chilli oil by placing the oil and chillies in glass canning jars in the water bath. I let them rip for about 90 minutes at ~88°C/190°F and the results were pretty good. I like the roasty/mildly bitter results from flash heating, but this was quite smooth and pleasant.

I think some purists would think it tastes weird. It's a very "clean" chilli flavour. I think it would have been a lot better with more aromatics, and when I'm done with this oil I'll likely give that a shot.

hardwaregeek6• 3 years ago

Have you tried blending it with a hot flash oil? My suspicion is that the two would be better than the sum of their parts.

jmspring2• 3 years ago

When visiting various countries in Europe (Italy, Spain, etc) I've run across the equivalent of farmers markets where they have varying types of infused oils. The oils often have the seeds/herbs/etc. in the bottle. I wonder what method these vendors use.

I know people who have simply put herbs/peppers/etc directly into oil and go with that method. I've not heard of them getting botulism, but maybe it was luck.

When looking into this awhile back, I ran across this article - https://extension.psu.edu/how-to-safely-make-infused-oils - I have yet to try the recommendations here in and wonder about the impact on flavor.

justusthane• 3 years ago

I’ve only heard of garlic in oil being a botulism risk. Are other veggies dangerous too?

jmspring2• 3 years ago

The article I linked to mentioned that fresh herbs could be a source as well. The article from OP mentions peppers can as well. So, I guess one has to be careful.

ac29• 3 years ago

I know people who have simply put herbs/peppers/etc directly into oil and go with that method. I've not heard of them getting botulism, but maybe it was luck.

According to the CDC, food-borne botulism is pretty rare, just 21 cases in the US in 2019: https://www.cdc.gov/botulism/surv/2019/index.html

That being said, it can be fatal so certainly it wouldn't be advisable to take the risk.

OJFord2• 3 years ago

Many more were killed crossing roads in 2019, so is it not advisable to take that risk either?

matthewmorgan• 3 years ago

Since I caught covid my sense of smell//taste is reduced so much that I put hot sauce on everything.

elderlybanana• 3 years ago

My favorite chili oils take the chilis just beyond a perfect maillard "sear" and venture very slightly into burnt territory. Many peppers have a natural bitterness when dried, and that slight bitterness added from the barely burned flavor brings out some extra, magical, umami depth. Adding some acidic elements makes for some incredible dishes.

I have found that smoked chilis lose their smokiness with high heat though. I wonder if doing a lower heat extraction might retain those smoky flavors. Sounds like the multiple extraction/blend the author talked about would be worth a shot to get both.

mortureb2• 3 years ago

I agree. Indian cooking uses a lot of flavored oil as “tadkas”. Spices (cumin, coriander, garlic, mustard etc.) including whole red chillies are brought up to temp in a small metal bowl with ghee over a flame and then added to the final dish.

I’ve made chili oil this way and it seems to draw out more flavor and there’s the slight burnt flavor that I love.

hardwaregeek6• 3 years ago

I've learned from cooking more Indian food recently that it's okay to burn spices a little. In most cuisines you're told to only bloom spices briefly but Indian food isn't afraid to really cook spices to their limit.

nimbius• 3 years ago

I use Korean red pepper flake, the same type I use in my kimchi, and it had provided fabulous results. I generally build on flavours like spring onions and lots of garlic first, pulling them out before leaving black cardamom Sichuan green chilis (for a more woody note) star anise cinnamon and coriander seed for a brighter aroma. I also mix black vinegar and salt in with the chilis first before decanting the seasoned oil atop them. I make a litre at a time but can't ever keep it in the house. The whole effort is 1-2 hours but its mostly just watching the garlic and onion and making sure to pull it out before it burns. The decanting doesn't generate smoke or anything troublesome but beware, the smell of chili oil will permeate the kitchen for about three days.

michaelteter2• 3 years ago

With regard to the health risks many comments note, I wonder how many natural (collaborative, so to speak) ingredient mixes might contribute to positive food safety despite the known threats.

For example, I had a roommate who would cook salmon in a tomato sauce and leave it to sit overnight. From my background, this sounded like obvious death, but he assured me it was a common recipe in South Africa. I did try it, and it was delicious. I had no adverse reactions after eating it (a full day after it was cooked and left sitting in the pan).

throwaway892238• 3 years ago

Why would this concern you more than anything else? If you cook the fish, it's not going to "go bad" as quickly as if it were raw. If you cook anything to a particular temperature and time, it should kill most bacteria in it. Then the acidity of the tomato should help resist bacterial growth a wee bit longer than something pH-neutral. On top of all this, "obvious death" from bacteria in food is some serious hyperbole; it's quite rare to die of food poisoning.

civilitty3• 3 years ago

it's quite rare to die of food poisoning.

I’d go so far as to say it’s virtually unheard of for healthy adults to die of food poisoning from cooked food going bad*. It’s mostly children, the elderly, and the immunocompromised that are at risk. The fast majority of microbes that cause food born illness are really common in our environments and we’ve built up plenty of immunity.

* fecal contamination and other toxins like paralytic shellfish poisoning are another matter

kelipso2• 3 years ago

Some fish curries from kerala can be left outside for days and the flavor is supposed to improve. The curries have high heat and acidity, so it makes sense it doesn't go bad.

michaelteter2• 3 years ago

Cookbooks with these kinds of recipes surely exist, but I wonder if there are any recipe books that focus first on special ingredient and preparation combinations that result in safety/preservation benefits beyond just good taste.

ciceryadam2• 3 years ago

There's another kind of chilli oil, pressed from Hungarian spicy paprika/capsicum seeds: https://rubinpaprika.com/magolajok/fuszerpaprika-magolaj-csi...

It has a deeply nutty flavor and the spiciness is a bit sneaky, but it's a great addition to finishing oils.

s0rce• 3 years ago

Neat!, a quick search doesn't come up with anywhere to buy it in North America, also never seen this.

dendrite9• 3 years ago

Interesting, does it go bad quickly? Kurbiskernol is one of my favorite oils for special uses but it seems to spoil faster than some other oils. And I don't always travel somewhere I can pick up a good bottle. I suppose thinking of oils as more like a juice might be a good approach.

metachris• 3 years ago

Kürbiskernöl (pumpkin seed oil) should be stored in the fridge, there it lasts pretty long.

ciceryadam2• 3 years ago

It's pretty shelf stable. I have one opened sitting on my shelf for three months and it still smells/tastes good.

scarmig• 3 years ago

My "recipe" is simply caiziyou and erjingtiao, hot flash method, and it works well enough.

One thing the author misses about the oil choice: what makes caiziyou superior to other oil choices is that it has a high viscosity. That results in the chili oil sticking to food and the tongue better once used; it probably also affects the fluid dynamics of the frying step in a way, though I can't say if it's significant.

hardwaregeek6• 3 years ago

Ooh I’d never heard that! I will say there is something magical about caiziyou. It’s so nutty and roasted and beautifully dark.

yawnxyz• 3 years ago

Have y'all tried steeping in anchovies for salty / umami flavor? It definitely moves away from Asian chili oils and into Mediterranean, but I find anchovies add quite a hard-to-describe depth to the chili oil.

hardwaregeek6• 3 years ago

Interesting! I've mostly added umami from mushroom powder and MSG. Anchovies or fish sauce could be an interesting addition, although that does make it more of a sauce than an oil.

AareyBaba• 3 years ago

Thai "prik nam pla" is chili in fish sauce. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isLl3m_JUx4

s_dev• 3 years ago

If anyone is looking for a chilli oil you can buy that's both delicous and available check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lao_Gan_Ma

It goes great with, eggs, rice and any yogurt dishes.

racked• 3 years ago

Coincidentally I had the black bean version of this a few days ago. Delicious, but less spicy than expected. :-)

elesiuta• 3 years ago

It used to be spicier and even better before her son took over and changed it to a cheaper chili from another province a few years ago (which wasn't great).

I ended up trying something like 20 different brands looking for an alternative, and my favourites from least to most spicy were: Chuan Lao Hui, Lee Kum Kee, and Wa!, which I actually found even better.

I tried Lao Gan Ma again now that they're back to chilies from the original province, but it still doesn't taste quite the same, I wonder if the sourcing changes caused them to lose their specific cultivar?

chaos_emergent• 3 years ago

This stuff is as addictive as sugar! I love it. Watch out for how much you’re putting on your food :)

gsuuon2• 3 years ago

Yup. It basically becomes a household emergency when we run low. We were out of this and sriracha for a couple weeks. That was a sad, tasteless, time. (Also, it's mentioned in the article)

donatj3• 3 years ago

The little soybeans are the best part of Lao Gan Ma. I would kill for a version that was half soybean.

skyyler3• 3 years ago

If you're getting the "fried chili in oil" product, you could look out for the "chili oil with black bean" product they make.

Another option is Fly By Jing's original "sichuan chili crisp" which has a different flavour profile than LGM but is very forward with the douchi / black beans / black soybeans.

anonu2• 3 years ago

I make a "Mediterranean" version of this with olive oil and I cut up some chilies and just let them soak. Completely different use case than an Asian chili oil IMO... but a little bit easier to do as you don't need to heat the oil (and you probably wouldn't want to heat olive oil that much anyway).

cinntaile• 3 years ago

You use it pretty much instantly then? Or do you take any other steps to prevent the botumism bacteria from thriving?

anonu2• 3 years ago

Yes, chilis should be dried out before you use them. For me its been shelf-stable outside for 2-3 months. Obviously, with botulism you would smell it right away if its off.

levlaz• 3 years ago

It makes me so happy that this is on the front page of HN. :D

mauvehaus• 3 years ago

Tangential, but related: my partner claims that putting oil and garlic in a cold pan and warming them together yields a different flavor than heating the oil, and then adding the garlic. I'm pretty convinced that she's right.

Has anyone experimented with this rigorously? I'd happily nerd out reading a similar article in that subject.

fooker• 3 years ago

Yeah this is because you have more time when the oil and garlic is heated together (before the garlic burns).

You want to do this when garlic is the main flavor you are aiming for and avoid doing it when garlic wants to complement the other herbs and spices.

elhudy14• 3 years ago

I love nerding out on food as mich as the next person. On food and cooking is one of my favorite kitchen tools. Sichuan chili oil is a staple condiment in our house.

That said, i find the following to be an oft-repeated bs phrase parroted across the internet. You can find it tracing back to reddit threads over ten years ago.

You can end up with what are called fines and boulders, fines being tiny, dust-like pieces of coffee that create bitterness in the cup, and boulders being large chunks that create sourness or emptiness in the cup.

I dare any coffee drinker to blindly try their coffee with a crappy grinder, and compare to their $200 carbon fiber whatever. You wont detect the difference. I once looked into someone’s reddit account who was repeating this - and found that they were selling grinders elsewhere. Must be awesome margins.

bradgessler• 3 years ago

It matters if you’re brewing pour-over coffee. If you don’t use a burr grinder the fines settle towards the bottom while pouring and clogs it up. Takes forever!

xapata• 3 years ago

Comparing my cheap spice chopper and my cheap burr grinder, I noticed a clear improvement. Maybe that's because the spice chopper was so bad at chopping coffee beans. I doubt the fancy burr grinders make much difference, but then again I was skeptical of the cheap burr grinder until I tried it.

VerminOctopus1• 3 years ago

A crappy grinder will not work at all with espresso.

crunchytreat4• 3 years ago

I’ve spent ten years in the specialty coffee industry (not selling grinders). If you’re controlling other variables properly you should definitely be able to tell the difference.

c0pium8• 3 years ago

I think this is an important insight. Some people don’t have much experience in making repeatable coffee, and whether you make the coffee well is more important than how good the grinder is.

jonahhorowitz2• 3 years ago

A friend of mine started a company based entirely on the premise that grind quality matters. They did many blind taste tests and found that they could taste a 50μm difference in grind size when they controlled the other variables. Can you tell the difference between a $50 spice mill and a $200 burr grinder? Yes, absolutely. Can you tell the difference between that and a $1,500 expresso grinder, probably.

His little startup company ended up getting bought by one of the large coffee companies.

mbakke2• 3 years ago

Even amateurs will notice the difference between a "perfect" pour over from a $50 grinder and a $200 grinder. The GP clearly does not own a V60 :)

Above the $200 range really only matter for espresso. Manual brews don't need that fine grind precision, just consistency (no fines, no rocks) at medium grind levels.

ehnto2• 3 years ago

I don't know if there is a taste difference that's meaningful, but the consistency is probably the real difference between grinders.

With a spice mill, it's a total crap shoot if a grind will pull properly, blast through or block up completely. It is a challenge to always get a good grind.

A burr grinder? If it's the same beans, it is set and forget. Always the same grind, same pull, easy.

If there is any taste difference, I suspect it is down to consistency of the grind and not much else.

elhudy14• 3 years ago

Tasting a difference in grind size does not equate to fine particles being “bitter” and larger particles being “flat”, nor does it result in a slightly uneven grind being “better” than a more consistent one…

c0pium8• 3 years ago

I’ve double-blinded a burr hand grinder, electric blade spice grinder, and a fellow grinder.

It’s pretty easy to tell, although it depends a bit on how well you make the coffee.

nosefurhairdo• 3 years ago

Your argument is "I dare you; you won't notice a difference." That's not convincing. Those of us who've spent time in the industry can even detect differences between high end conical vs flat burr grinders, let alone the difference between a bladed spice grinder compared to a burr grinder.

There are substantial differences to be found in many variables of coffee brewing. Just because you don't have a palate for it doesn't mean others don't.

esperent2• 3 years ago

Are you aware of any blind tests done on this? I'm fully aware that I can taste the difference between my Specialita and a blade grinder.

What I'm less convinced by is that more and more expensive grinders taste better to any noticeable and consistent degree. Personally I'd say that the taste changes day by day, maybe according to my mood, whether I brushed my teeth or ate something sweet in the last hour or two, the humidity, bean freshness, whether any defect beans got into a particular cup, and probably a ton of other factors.

I'm willing to accept that my tastes are not developed enough. But I need real double blind tests to back that up, not just people saying I should trust them because they claim to be an expert. Are there any?

elhudy14• 3 years ago

It doesnt need to be convincing - I’m not the one making the claim that $200 coffee grinders make better coffee, so I’m not responsible for backing up that fact with data.

andy_ppp2• 3 years ago

The difference in filter and espresso is quite a lot at the blender to burr grinder stage and a little bit from 200-1000$ getting better throughout. I’m sure you’ll be saying you can’t tell the difference in lots of areas because you can’t tell the difference. Which is fine btw!

mafuyu• 3 years ago

Seriously? The grinder is the most important part, in my experience. When I first got into aeropress and pourovers, I was frustrated for years with bland and inconsistent brews. It was only after I upgraded to a decent burr grinder that everything fell into place. It’s just impossible to tweak anything else without first starting with a good grinder. I make adjustments of a few micron at a time with my grinder, and the difference is significant for both espresso and pour over. It’s much rarer that I make adjustments in water salts, brew temp, and brew method.

c0pium8• 3 years ago

Quality of beans and water in some order, followed by temperature and time, then grinder.

Grab some 6 month old beans and brew them with metallic water at 85c, no grinder in the world will make that palatable.

adjustments of a few micron at a time

Lol, no you don’t. Microns are much smaller than you think.

helsinkiandrew• 3 years ago

That's nonsense unless your the kind of person who says a cup of instant is indistinguishable from a freshly ground brew (and post covid there probably are many more people who can't).

The size and consistency of the ground coffee makes a huge difference in extraction of coffee and therefor the taste, so a grinder that can make a consistent, repeatable grind will be noticeable (perhaps not as noticable as purchased ground vs freshly ground), but for some the difference between instant, and fresh ground with a $50, $500, or $3000 isn't worth the price.

$50 vs $500 Vs $500,000 Coffee Grinder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkYqHWThIpA

elhudy14• 3 years ago

That's nonsense unless your the kind of person who says a cup of instant is indistinguishable from a freshly ground brew

No, it isn't nonsense. And yes, I can tell the difference between a cup of instant and a cup of freshly ground brew.

This video actually proves my point. James not only avoids tasting the coffees blind, but you can see that at 6:35 the particle volume is all basically the same size with extremely minute differences - looks like a factor of less than 10% volume density with very little distribution difference between grinders.

chongli3• 3 years ago

I make my morning coffee on a Lelit espresso machine. I use a Niche zero espresso grinder. I can easily tell the difference between grind sizes a mm apart on the dial, when it comes to taste in the cup (and even with milk). The espresso machine can tell the difference too, because even a minute difference in grind size can make a significant difference in the coffee puck’s ability to withstand the water pressure.

You see, when you make espresso there’s a pretty narrow range of grind sizes that produce acceptable coffee. Too coarse, and the water gushes through the puck without building much pressure. Too fine, and the puck essentially turns into coffee cement and the machine isn’t able to squeeze out more than a drop or two of (very bitter) espresso.

Within that narrow range you can find the needle on the water pressure gauge hitting numbers anywhere between 4 and 10 bar (I’ve set my machine’s overpressure valve to 10 bar so that excess water pressure is shunted away and circulated back into the brew circuit). I find the coffee tastes best when I can hit the sweet spot between 9 and 10 bar without the OPV kicking in. This is subject to uncontrollable factors such as differences in tamping but generally occurs at a very specific grind setting that I find after dialing in a new coffee.

As for differences in flavour? It’s all about extraction. Underextraction (from failure to reach a high enough pressure) results in sour, thin coffee. Overextraction yields very dark, bitter coffee with a powdery mouth feel. Proper extraction avoids both of these problems and tastes sublime, nutty and chocolatey (with medium-dark roasts) or fruity and juicy (with lighter roasts).

There may be a lot of gadget-headery going on in the espresso world but I can confidently say that correct grind size makes an enormous difference in the quality of coffee. Whether you need a $2000 grinder to achieve that is debatable, but you absolutely will not achieve it with a $40 blade grinder (which cannot control grind sizes at all).

elhudy14• 3 years ago

Do you live in Europe by chance? When people in the USA talk about coffee they are typically not talking about espresso, which is a different beast altogether, and something I have no experience with.

stcroixx• 3 years ago

It’s a millennial generation thing. Nobody older or younger takes it this seriously.

timvdalen• 3 years ago

You can absolutely taste the difference between a crappy grinder and a good grinder. I'm not sure what a carbon fiber grinder is, but a proper flat burr grinder that produces a relatively uniform grind size makes the biggest difference in coffee taste, as long as the coffee you're drinking hasn't been burned to ash.

nycdatasci• 3 years ago

The discussion here reminds me of the lady tasting tea experiment. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_tasting_tea

Mistletoe2• 3 years ago

I read all that and didn’t get the thing I want to know. Could the lady tell the difference?!

thaumasiotes• 3 years ago

David Salsburg reports that a colleague of Fisher, H. Fairfield Smith, revealed that in the actual experiment the lady succeeded in identifying all eight cups correctly.

tomsmeding• 3 years ago

It's on the page, pretty high up:

One could then ask what the probability was for her getting the specific number of cups she identified correct (in fact all eight), but just by chance.

ChrisKnott2• 3 years ago

I'm struggling to believe this can be done by taste; I could understand it if you went milk+teabag, then added water, but this seems like brewed tea in a pot added to milk in cup v.s. milk added to brewed tea in a cup, which will get totally mixed either way...?

The only difference I can think of in these situations is the temperature of the bottom of the cup. Can this really detectably affect the taste? Maybe she was subconsciously feeling this?

RugnirViking• 3 years ago

I do know that brewing tea with not-quite boiled water (70-80 degrees C) instead of boiled water 80-90 is recommended because otherwise the leaves go bitter.

Perhaps if they were using water fresh from the kettle the milk-first way was preventing the "scalding"

Adverblessly• 3 years ago

The difference is that if the milk is added first, slowly pouring the prepared tea will gradually heat up the milk from its initial temperature to the final combined temperature. If the tea is added first, the milk will start at tea temperature and gradually cool down to the combined temperature.

Imagining a scenario where the milk starts at 0 degrees and the tea at 100 and having a 1:10 milk:tea ratio, the difference is whether the milk gradually heats up 0->90 or gradually cools down 100->90.

Thus, in one scenario the milk will experience more extreme temperatures that can "burn" it whereas in the other scenario it won't.

To me at least I'd say the difference is barely noticeable, if I had to guess I'd say that in a blind tasting I might be able to get 55% of my guesses right.

peteforde• 3 years ago

Are rapeseed oil and canola oil the same thing?

Well, yes and no.

https://www.tastingtable.com/1066770/are-canola-and-rapeseed...

gsuuon2• 3 years ago

I feel the experiments you mention would make a really entertaining youtube series.

tomcam• 3 years ago

Sichuan chili oil and cuisine blow me away. Discovered it in my early 50s and within about 1 day my wife decided I’m a reincarnated Sichuan farmer lol

raylad• 3 years ago

I am going to take this opportunity to share the chili oil that is so good that I'm sure I could never make it: the most delicious chili oil made with sesame oil from the best sesame oil producer.

Yamada Seiyu Goma ra-yu (spicy sesame oil)

Ingredients are: sesame oil, red pepper, spring onion, ginger, sansho (zanthoxylum piperitum), cinnamon, star anise, mikan tangerine skin

Here is the manufacturers site: https://sesamepaste.jp/en/#Products

Although it's not on the Nijiya Market website, it can often be found there, mixed in amongst the lesser sesame chili oils. It's a favorite gift of mine to give, and nearly everyone who receives it mentions later to me how much they enjoyed it.

reaperman• 3 years ago

Really love the Mala Su Chili Crisp here: https://yunhai.shop/collections/su-chili-crisp It's completely replaced my use of Lao Gan Ma Spicy Chili Crisp I enjoy the Lao Gan Ma, but I wouldn't say I "love" it like I would for the Su Chili Crisp Mala.

whynotqat• 3 years ago

In Modernist Cuisine, Myrvhold et al advocate for a sous vide chili oil. Roast the chilis and other ingredients at about 250 in the oven, then sous vide at 158. Never made it myself, and it's not intended to be authentic Chinese chili oil. They also mention using a pressure cooker instead, which seems reasonable.

Chili Oil Notes

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