Korea Superconductor Papers Published ‘Without Consent’

https://www.asiafinancial.com/korea-superconductor-papers-published-without-consent-yonhap

by mhb • 3 years ago

104 46 3 years ago

mholt• 3 years ago

I don't know how reliable these tweets ("xeets"? "posts"?) are, but for more context see these threads (and go down the quote-hole):

[0] https://twitter.com/sanxiyn/status/1684905973507674112

[1] https://twitter.com/8teAPi/status/1684932569148866560

[2] https://twitter.com/8teAPi/status/1684863724266606593

[3] https://twitter.com/8teAPi/status/1684586672917565443

Jul 28 Friday - Lee and Kwon show up as unscheduled additions to the International Symposium on Metallic Multilayers. Kwon introduces, but Lee presents. Audience is frustrated by presentation in Korean which is then translated. They claim a weak Meissner effect. It maybe it only works in a thin film. He says they need to run a current through the material in order to levitate it. He doesn’t have a sample of the material on hand. The data looks like spotty and unsophisticated.

Though some of this is superficial, if the "look" holds true, it seems there's a lot of drama under the tip of the iceberg (that would make a good Netflix documentary), and it's increasingly unlikely this is a true scientific breakthrough. :(

MacsHeadroom• 3 years ago

It's supposedly been replicated twice already. Specifically, getting almost zero resistance at temperatures below 97°C (slightly lower than the original paper).

I've seen posts from half a dozen labs that will have their own samples finished this coming week.

No amount of drama matters. It's possible the drama is a result of rushing for credit by people who know they've discovered the real thing.

conkeisterdoor• 3 years ago

Where did you hear news of the two supposed replications? Could you post some links?

lucubratory3• 3 years ago

Where are these replications? Please link them

Sunspark• 3 years ago

The initial cold fusion results claimed success. It will be interesting to see how all this pans out. Results will come because the materials are not exotic.

One thing I found odd, I've read more than once that the 99 in LK-99 means 1999. Who sits on this for 24 years? Perhaps there is a misunderstanding that is being repeated?

whywhywhy34• 3 years ago

Here is one example https://elsazhou.medium.com/lk99-chinese-replication-efforts...

brucethemoose23• 3 years ago

I am going to repost whywhy's link. Not sure why it was zapped, as I have seen this screenshot elsewhere:

https://elsazhou.medium.com/lk99-chinese-replication-efforts...

However, the Meissner effect, a key characteristic of superconductors, has yet to be observed. The issue seems to lie in the purity of the superconducting material, which is currently only a few percent. Despite this, the conversation implies optimism, stating, “if we have made a start this problem will be solved quickly.”

dado3212• 3 years ago

I think this is referencing this article [1]. It actually precedes the recent one, but wasn't in English. You can see the translation here [2]. The timeline is a little weird, this is a comment I've seen talking about it, though I haven't verified any of it [3].

[1]. https://www.kci.go.kr/kciportal/landing/article.kci?arti_id=... [2]. https://gist.github.com/ConcurrentSquared/c65cbec8a05e72e3e4... [3]. https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/15bfhq7/there_...

kimorpark• 3 years ago

The Phost in Machines - Suspected Li Shipei himself describes the 20-year research process of LK-99 2 hours ago :: From columns Worldview

Make it calm. Excellent respondents on scientific research topics Concerned The translator press: It is certain that Koreans have concealment of the synthetic details. The insiders gave a little information. 1. Oxygen must be released in the second half of the synthesis process. 2. Appropriate vibration fluids to obtain crystals.The translator is not sure the truth or falseness of the information mentioned. The translation is basically loyal to the original. It does not constitute any scientific guidance.

Translation fromhttps:/twitter.com/8teAPi/status/1685641634892128256 There were minor changes.

Title: The Phost in Machines (translation: Suspicion of Li Shipei himself describes the 20-year research process of LK-99)

In 1996, Jin Zhixun, 24, entered the Department of Chemistry at the University of Korea with a faceful tone. He is a chemical synthesis with the habit of old-fashioned synthetic major — that is, "no reason to speak, my men see the truth. " At that time, the Department of Chemistry was led by a charming cow TS Chair (Cui Dong-chi). Professor Cui proposed a one-dimensional inorganic polymer chain that was deviated from the transverse in 1994 and was not widely accepted to realize superconducting theory ISB Theory. Li Shipei, a disciple of Cui, was enthusiastic and energetic, published his master's thesis Explanation of Supercontinuity by the ISB Theory in 1995. Kim Zhixun was actually studying battery materials at first and received a master's degree in 1997. Professor Li Shipei and Cui then persuaded him to join his superconductor team to study for his PhD in chemical synthesis. Kim Zhixun conducted hundreds of experiments on dozens of ceramic mixtures. In 1999, a lead apatite sample showed a small fluctuation that seemed unique to the superconductor. They repeated the experiment and the other two samples showed the same fluctuation.

But the signal is too vague, or it may be an unspeakable instrument error. Kim Zhixun was too cautious to worry that there was nothing to do. He chose not to pursue further research on superconductors and recycle battery materials. Four years later, he completed his PhD and joined a small hearing aid battery company. Li Shipei continued to study ISB superconductors. Although he and Professor Cui revised the theory to narrow the search range like a needle in a sea, they left the synthetic Kim students, they got nothing. In 2008, Li Shipei absorbed part of Kim's work and published his doctoral thesis in the theory and synthesis of superconductors. Li then joined a small private university as a part-time professor in the Department of Computer Science. He has not done any more scientific research and is not interested in teaching. In 2008, he founded Q-center with Kim Zhi-hoon. Q-center mainly takes some regular consulting work and makes some pocket money. Kim Zhi-hoon occasionally goes there to sit. Although they tried to do some experiments, they did not see much as if research was just a hobby.

Professor Cui Dong-chi was ill in early 2017. The news came to his students and people began to visit him. Cui Dongzhit found Kim Ji-hoon and Li Shipei and told them they must find the ghosts that appeared in the machine in 1999. He died in May and said, "Please, keep studying, but do not let the world see it until it is perfect. "

Kim Zhixun told Li Shipei that he had a wife and son and that he could not work as hard as he was a graduate student. If Li Shipei wants him to work full-time, he has to raise money to buy an ESR machine and an SQUID machine. Lee Shipei's old friend, Professor Cui Dongzhi, and Professor Keun Ho Auh, Honorary Professor of Hanyang, began to raise money everywhere. They filed an application with the Korea National Science Foundation to buy funds for ESR equipment. However, since Jin Zhixun and Li Shipei have not published any scientific research papers since the postgraduate stage, applications have been naturally rejected. As a result, they met with a contact with Koryo's permanent position in professorship. Quan Ying-chan is an outstanding and credible physicist, and he has both ESR expertise and SQUID machine access.

Quan Ying still thinks the pair have some amateurs, but it's good to get money without too much responsibility. As a result, he signed an appointment with Q-center at the end of 2017. And he was able to keep him in college, but occasionally came to guide him.

Finally, after receiving funding, they bought an ESR machine, and Kim Ji-hoon added Q-center full-time in early 2018. Kim Zhixun's work habits as chemists focus on familiarity, while Quan Ying-chan, as a physicist, tends to be clear and clean. The difference led to an argument: Kim Zhi-hoon found a faint signal on ESR, consistent with the results he had seen in 1999. But physicist Quan Qianzhi believes this is totally untenable in theory. They quickly argued. Mr. Li tried to mediate the dispute, but when he saw the fluctuations on the chart as they had been seen 20 years ago. He was shocked and suddenly realized that the only person who had approached the ghost in the past 20 years was actually Kim Ji-hoon.

Like playing hide-and-seek with the universe, Kim listened to faint signals through ESR. He sometimes feels closer to the truth and sometimes feels further away from the truth. Such a weak signal certainly doesn't convince outsiders that existing theories are difficult to solve problems and he has to develop a new search method. Finally, one morning in 2020, at a time of the global blockade of the new epidemic, he unexpectedly saw a huge peak in previous weak signals (picture below).

Kim Ji-hoon repeated the test, but did not see such a strong signal in the new sample. He checked the lab records and couldn't do it. Is there a mistake? So he started checking lab surveillance footage and photos. He found that the quartz capsule with a significant ascension had cracked when it was taken out. And he looked back at the video and hit his elbow when he saw him transfer his capsule to the scale after the stove exit. He suddenly realized that cracks should lead to the introduction of oxygen at the right time, and then to the structure of the emerging lead phosphate crystal. Moreover, the elbow hit the table, resulting in the introduction of vibrations that promoted crystal formation.

From here on, work is going fast. Within three months, they found the ghosts that plagued the team for 20 years and crystallized them. You can hold it in your hand. It can float. Like a magic stone (the original text).

Li Shipei was very excited and Kwon Young was stunned.

But they still don't have enough funds or equipment for comprehensive feature measurement. The superconductor's critical temperature is so high that it exceeds the measurement of their hands.

Qu Ying began to deduce from a physical point of view. He doesn't think Cui Dongzhi's theory explains what happened. He knew that "the near water tower is first moon" He has a huge lead in all physics homes. If he can take the lead in finding out, he will certainly have a Nobel Prize. However, this eventually led him to a direct conflict with the team's theorist Li Shipei.

It's just that this process is very focused on synthesis. Powder must be mixed evenly with a bowl and amaranth to obtain fully uniform particles. If you buy premixed powder, do not use a bowl and amaranth, or move too slowly from a stove to a cooling station, it can lead to crystal failure. Only Kim Ji-hoon was able to make magic floating stones by hitting a vacuum quartz capsule at the right time after taking them out of the stove.

They contributed to Nature but rejected the manuscript due to the controversy over Langa Dias. Quan Ying-chan blamed Kim Zhixun's late mentor Cui Dongzhizhizhi's one-dimensional inorganic polymer theory.

Mr. Li believes the problem is that people must see the magic stone with their own eyes to convince themselves. However, during the new Guan epidemic, their three-man team was unable to enter and exit South Korea to show the material to international reviewers. Things can only be kept stalling. By the end of 2021, Quan Ying decided to focus on vacation. Li Shipei and Jin Hyun-chao, a Korean scientist, were in contact. Although at the beginning, Kim Hyun-chio is not convinced of the so-called room temperature constant pressure superconductor. However, after a recovery from his trip to the new crown, Kim went to the lab to see the magic stone, then changed his position and succeeded from Kim Zhi-hoon, able to repeat the preparation process of LK-99 independently by his team in the United States. Although production remains low. Maybe only one success per 10 attempts.

However, due to Kim Hyun-chao's strong addition, Quan's role was reduced to the extent that only SQUID measurements were carried out. In March 2023, Quan Ying was fired after arguing with the team. The rest of the team went on.

raydiatian• 3 years ago

Tweets

romusha• 3 years ago

Let's call it ppeets

luminati• 3 years ago

I’m seeing lot of Hwang level energy here.

There is a lot of pent up National shame in Korea for not having won any Nobel prize. It does lead to some weird behavior.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwang_affair

carabiner3• 3 years ago

It's a mix of Hwang, Steorn, and Theranos. I'm just in it for the popcorn reading at this point. I no longer fear that it will be validated and destroy society.

devin• 3 years ago

Could you elaborate on destroying society? Wouldn’t validation of these claims be good for society?

fastball• 3 years ago

How would RTSC destroy society?

richbell• 3 years ago

An entertaining documentary on the subject is https://youtu.be/ett_8wLJ87U

yongjik• 3 years ago

I agree that Korea has a lot of idiotic bureaucrats who apparently think the purpose of scientific pursuit is to win a Nobel prize, but "pent up national shame" is a bit exaggerating. Go to the streets of Gangnam and ask random people what are Korea's biggest problems, and I guarantee not a one in 100 would mention the Nobel prize.

NoZebra120vClip• 3 years ago

https://xkcd.com/2357/

smcin• 3 years ago

Retraction, Gangnam style!

mcpackieh• 3 years ago

Even if this is assumed to be fraud, it seems premature to pin it on this nationalistic motive without some specific supporting evidence.

carabiner3• 3 years ago

If this was any other country besides Korea I'd agree with you. This is a place where Gangnam style was heralded as a great artistic achievement nationally. There's almost a fetish for success there, anything Korean that achieves global influence is celebrated there.

scythe• 3 years ago

The article you linked doesn't mention anything about Korea not having won any Nobel prizes, though?

applesan• 3 years ago

It has nothing to do with Hwang. Hwang's paper was published in Science and he was called pride of Korea. In superconductor case we see infighting and even Koreans are very sceptical. If anything people who hyped this paper were mostly randoms on twitter.

zeroCalories• 3 years ago

I won't deny that the papers smell, but this kind of comment on Korean's national character is wildly inappropriate.

tkiley• 3 years ago

I don't trust the secondhand reporting and translation work here. I have seen several korean articles which claimed that Dr. Hyun-Tak Kim disavowed both papers. This would be very significant, as he is the coauthor with the h index! However, in the korean articles where this claim has a cited source, the source is his new scientist interview, in which he disavowed only the first paper (the one with 3 authors, including Kwon and excluding Hyun-Tak Kim):

https://archive.is/DhijM

I have not seen any credible direct quotes which show that any of the authors have distanced themselves from the second paper (the one with 6 authors including Hyun-Tak Kim).

My tentative read is that every author besides Kwon is likely thinking "this is not ready / not real, but if I pump the brakes on the hype train, Kwon will get all the credit in the unlikely event that it replicates quickly, so it's best to stay tight-lipped for the moment."

DoctorOetker• 3 years ago

That is quite an analogy with bad sex, someone suffers premature publication, and then its too embarrassing for the others involved to make a comment if anyone came...

system2• 3 years ago

How difficult is it to talk to these scientists to explain a few things for everyone? There are papers and speculation but no word from the people who wrote these papers. Is it so difficult to make these people talk? Why are they being so secretive or shy?

carabiner3• 3 years ago

They spoke at an international conference in Seoul yesterday and it was basically a clusterfuck. No one came away impressed, and other Korean scientists are as skeptical as everyone else. I don't think they can say much because they just don't know what they have (almost certainly a mixture of compounds) or what they are doing. All they have is vibes.

lucubratory3• 3 years ago

Important to note that the person who spoke at the conference is the alleged defector, the LG scientist who (it seems) is trying to make sure he gets 3rd position on the Nobel Prize and who rushed out the low quality paper. The "main body" of six researchers, including the most prestigious scientist involved, Dr Hyun Tak Kim, did not speak at that conference and have basically disavowed the alleged defector.

Roark66• 3 years ago

When one's career could be dependent on possibly saying wrong words it's not that strange for one to be quiet. If I was these guys I'd definitely wait and see if anyone manages to replicate their findings.

Even more so if they themselves felt the work is not "ready" and someone published without letting others know.

To me it is perfectly reasonable why people involved would remain silent for few weeks.

jamesfisher• 3 years ago

Why is no one asking to analyze the superconductors they claimed to make? Everyone's talking about replicating it by following their recipe, but isn't the proof in the pudding?

lucubratory3• 3 years ago

1) Because a negative result wouldn't prove anything, transit and time are both factors that could plausibly mess with its properties so if it doesn't superconduct that doesn't indicate anything about the material. 2) Because even if it does replicate, no one wants another Starlite-style "science" controversy. If you can't replicate it, it doesn't exist, is the attitude a lot of people have, for understandable reasons.

This actually doesn't just affect RTAPS or materials science in general. There are some scientists who just refuse to consider or use GPT-4 as SOTA, because in their view it's non-replicability means including it just isn't science. It's an extreme view, but the general sentiment is common. You could consider it a backlash to the reproduction crisis.

Korea Superconductor Papers Published ‘Without Consent’

Related Stories