Google now requires and lists phone number in Play Store listings

https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2023/07/boosting-trust-and-transparency-in-google-play.html

by clumsysmurf • 3 years ago

79 90 3 years ago

android-developers.googleblog.com

And you've got to give all your info to some consultancy! " the information that Dun & Bradstreet has about your business is up to date before creating a developer account"

pierat• 3 years ago

Dun Dun Dun! Playtality!

(In the voice of Mortal Kombat)

nicolas_177• 3 years ago

Apple's App Store has always required D-U-N-S numbers for organizations.

Mindless2112• 3 years ago

What phone number will Google be listing for their own apps, I wonder.

emestifs2• 3 years ago

A number to a text-to-speech system with Bard on the other end of course

ineedasername2• 3 years ago

Bard might be a step up from their historic methods that appear little better than an auto responder hooked up to a traditional classifier that occasionally throws a low confidence match over to a human. One who will spend at most 60 seconds reviewing before they choose the canned response.

Bard, given a little leeway, might at least sound human.

westurner3• 3 years ago

What percentage of existing app developers on the Play Store do not have a DUNS number? Do they need to incorporate an LLC in order to get a DUNS number for their open source project?

Google decided to take the first 15% of app developers' first $1M in revenue instead of 30% in 2021. Google decided to take a 30% cut from all Play Store app and in-app revenue, and you may only use Google Payments in your app (just like Apple).

$150,000 out of $1,000,000 is a lot of money to host downloads, comments, and scan APKs. Shopping malls don't even demand a 15%-30% cut of revenue.

F-droid charges $0 to host APK app downloads and comments but doesn't scan APKs IIUC? https://f-droid.org/en/docs/Security_Model/

How to donate to F-Droid: https://f-droid.org/en/donate/

westurner3• 3 years ago

And now we need a key to consume our content with Chromecast; which is now the opposite of an open standard.

nicolas_177• 3 years ago

They're now requiring DUNS numbers for organization accounts, not for individuals. Read the article.

efitz• 3 years ago

The screen mock-ups for developer information for users show the phone number. It’s not clear from the blog post if the phone number display is a requirement.

rhdunn• 3 years ago

Reading the blog post and linked question/answer, the phone number requirement only applies to organization accounts, not to personal accounts. What is unclear is whether a non-US organization is able to create and use a D-U-N-S number -- especially if they don't have an office in the US.

nicolas_177• 3 years ago

Apple's App Store has always required D-U-N-S numbers for organizations.

charcircuit• 3 years ago

The platform fee of 30% is completely independent from the cost of running the store. The value of the Play store is the reach it provides app developers.

westurner3• 3 years ago

Are there estimates of Play Store cost models and profit margins?

From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28382186 :

> JOSS (Journal of Open Source Software) has managed to get articles indexed by Google Scholar [rescience_gscholar]. They publish their costs [joss_costs]: $275 Crossref membership, DOIs: $1/paper:
> Assuming a publication rate of 200 papers per year this works out at ~$4.75 per paper
[joss_costs]: https://joss.theoj.org/about#costs

But that's for ScholarlyArticles without automated peer review.

(And then they need somewhere else to host their datasets, because journals aren't CDNs. And then they need someone else to host repo2docker container instances or repo2jupyterlite in WASM.)

When I loan my money to a bank, they go invest it and give me like a 1% interest rate.

ineedasername2• 3 years ago

Shopping malls don't even demand a 15%-30% cut of revenue.

Shopping malls charged rent, and if you look up typical rent-to-revenue ratios you'll find that ~10% is in the range of average, ~20% around the the top end of the range, so not far off the 15% but yes, a bargain compared to 30%. But then again shopping malls don't scan a store's products for basic problems or defects.

On balance, if malls & rent are the comparison point, they roughly balance.

Sure a mall can't, in theory, prevent another group of investors from building a mall #2 next door. In practice though? Local township and city boards can be subverted through regulatory capture such that the people behind the financial interests of mall #1 will make it difficult for mall #2 to get local zoning approvals etc. And really most franchises aren't going to want to setup a competing location within two or three miles of an existing location anyway, but getting in geolocation stretches the metaphor so we can put that aside, as rent is the relevant aspect of the comparison.

lucb1e4• 3 years ago

F-droid charges $0 to host APK app downloads and comments but doesn't scan APKs IIUC?

Correct. I've donated before to cover my usage for a while as well as contributed some translations, but it's all volunteer stuff and it's not like we are eager to gatekeep each other's work (assuming that's what you meant by app scanning before publishing).

The quality of things on F-Droid varies as much as it does on google's gated repository, but I have yet to come across a single instance of adware, let alone malware. The store also hosts old versions, so if you don't like the latest changes in an app, you can just hit downgrade. And old apps are not removed if not broken; there's no requirement to keep up with sdk targeting blah. Finished or abandoned products do not have to be kept up-to-date constantly. They look old, but work just fine; google just forbids that.

emestifs2• 3 years ago

Now only if it were that easy to get a phone number to speak to a human at Google

kyrra• 3 years ago

Depends on the product. If it's something you pay for, you can get a phone number. For example, GPay and Play store for billing issues has an accessible phone numbers.

Any place where scaling customer support to the revenue vs number of users tends to lead to a lack of phone numbers.

(Googler, opinions are my own)

adambatkin• 3 years ago

Absolutely. As a paying Google Workspace customer (or whatever it's called this week) I have called support on a number of occasions. Zero times have they been able to help in any way (despite technical issues that they admitted were Google's responsibility), but I had a phone number.

totalZero• 3 years ago

My experience: Even if you pay Google, they don't offer adequate phone support and they don't take customer support seriously.

Google Ads sent me an email saying my ad was rejected, then billed me anyway. No idea if the ad ever ran, but they attempted to charge me and suspended my account when the charge didn't go through. It was difficult to get in touch with a support person because they do not offer phone support for accounts that are suspended, and I ended up paying for the ad without ever talking to someone over the phone to figure out why the ad was run after it was rejected. I filed a web form request after payment asking that they reinstate the Google Ads account, but they rejected the request.

I was billed twice for a certain month of Google One, and I had to file a web ticket and send emails with screenshots in order to get one of the charges reversed. There was no option to talk to a person.

orangecat• 3 years ago

Any place where scaling customer support to the revenue vs number of users tends to lead to a lack of phone numbers.

This makes sense, and yet Google will apparently be requiring phone numbers for apps that aren't monetized at all.

Beached• 3 years ago

it has been my experience that this isn't true. I worked at a fortune 100 that dumped millions into GCP, and they did not offer any type of support for GCP. we had to purchase support through a third party.

kccqzy3• 3 years ago

But Google doesn't require you to provide a phone number that reaches a human. It just needs a phone number. It could be voicemail only. It's the equivalent of Google providing a generic phone number like 6502530000 on their own business listing. Is there any expectation that this number leads to a human customer support agent that can actually help you? No.

dazbradbury• 3 years ago

Wonder what will happen when millions of people phone Google the next time Gmail or YouTube goes down?

This assumes Google have to comply with their own policy of course!

MBCook5• 3 years ago

The page isn’t clear on if the info has to be shown or can be shown.

I get doing more to verify developers (ignoring what I think of DUNS).

But acting as an individual developer if I were to think of creating an app for Android and saw that I had to publicly post my phone number that would be an absolute dead stop to development.

MrZander• 3 years ago

If you view the "Full Policy" link, it does seem to state that it must be shown. "where applicable" is vague though...

  Before you submit your app, you must:
  Accurately provide your developer account information, including the following details:
  * Legal name and address
  * D-U-N-S number, if registering as an organization
  * Contact email address and phone number
  * Developer email address and phone number shown on Google Play where applicable
  * Payment methods where applicable
  * Google payment profile linked to your developer account

jprete• 3 years ago

I have no special knowledge of this, but I think the natural interpretation is that “developer email and phone number” means contact info for a business publishing the app.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF2• 3 years ago

Minimally, for one who wants to keep a personal number private, this will raise the barrier to entry with an ongoing cost for a separate number.

Still, it’s a win for less technical users -- who ostensibly have never installed an alternative store -- considering they’ll be less likely to recognize scammy apps like the flashlights of old.

MBCook5• 3 years ago

But Google can confirm that stuff without display it to the end user. That’s the role the intermediary should play.

impissedoff12• 3 years ago

This is super trivial, a malicious actor will just use one of the thousands of free receive only sms to confirm

flakiness• 3 years ago

In the article, there is a screenshot listing the phone number in the "App support" section.

nicolas_177• 3 years ago

https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ...

Individuals: "Google will display your legal name, your country (as per your legal address), and developer email address on Google Play. If you decide to monetize on Google Play then Google will display your full address."

Organizations: "To help improve transparency and user safety on Google Play, Google will display your legal name, legal address, developer email address, and developer phone number on Google Play."

kccqzy3• 3 years ago

Just create a virtual phone number (say Google Voice) and put that up.

a1o• 3 years ago

Google Voice is dead, isn't it?

MBCook5• 3 years ago

So just to list list an app I need to sign up for an additional phone number.

Why? So people can call me? For what? Tech support? To ask if I exist?

I’m not answering that phone number. Im not signing up for it.

People in Hacker News complain left and right about all of Apple‘s policies and the hoops they make you jump through and how you have to pay $100 a year.

I have an app on the App Store. I don’t have to post my phone number and I don’t have to pay for a second one to ignore.

Dalewyn3• 3 years ago

1. As a customer, knowing I can call you goes a long way towards establishing your legitimacy in this day and age of overflowing junk devs and junkware. It's a way of demonstrating and establishing liability, FSVO liability.

2. If you don't want your personal phone number published, which is perfectly justifiable, provide your business phone number. Don't own a business? Go and register one at your local government office. It's probably better for you to publish software under a business instead of your personal name anyway.

colanderman2• 3 years ago

2 -- what? No. I'm not a business, I'm a hobbyist. I'm developing a thing I want to share for free with the world. I don't care if it's pseudonymous and I can't build a brand with it. But I want my network not to have to jump through hoops to install it.

voakbasda2• 3 years ago

Alternate headline: Google decides to dox app developers.

nicolas_177• 3 years ago

Where in the article (or the documentation[1]) does it say it will dox individual app developers?

[1] https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ...

voakbasda2• 3 years ago

From the link you posted:

Google will display your legal name, your country (as per your legal address), and developer email address on Google Play. If you decide to monetize on Google Play then Google will display your full address.

lucb1e4• 3 years ago

There's more Play news, unfortunately...

Two days ago, I updated Stellarium Mobile. On launch, it now requires that you are logged into the Play Store. No more anonymous Android usage.

I emailed the developer with what I saw in adb logcat, they came back yesterday with this:

I see your point. The new google verification code requires a google play account it seems. It works with some third party stores, but you need a google account..
This is probably going to be the case for most apps in the future because Google is pushing for this feature to be enabled by default for all Google Play apps at submission time..

so that's the end of being able to grab apks via Aurora (an alternative, open source client for the play store), at least if the app has any sort of billing function which is not uncommon even for open source apps (think donations). Maybe this is Google's response to the requirement to feeling threatened by needing to give up the app repository monopoly?

Aeolun• 3 years ago

I don’t follow. Can’t you bill things without signing into Google? How would they even enforce that?

lucb1e4• 3 years ago

The app needs to check whether I bought the Plus edition via Google in-app purchases (IAPs) because that's what the developer uses to accept payments. I did not¹ so there is nothing to be billed, but it does the license check of course.

As I understand the developer's response, my being kicked into the Play Store and being told to sign in, with no way of using the app until I've done so, is apparently Google's new requirement for using Google's IAP mechanism at all

¹ I'd love to pay for my use, but rather by something like liberapay or just IBAN transfer, so the developer gets 100% of the money and I don't have to give banking information to Google. With my email to the developer, I also asked for an IBAN in case they can accept payment in that way, as I now had to pirate the apk to use it while signed out of Google, but haven't gotten a response to that yet.

impissedoff12• 3 years ago

Aurora still works, you just can't use the search, you enable the search tab and it directs to google play in browser , then you hit a button to send the direct link back to app

lucb1e4• 3 years ago

Not really.

Aurora lets you download and install the apk, but when you then open Stellarium Mobile, then either:

- if you don't have the Play Store enabled, it will throw a stack trace about not being able to reach the licensing server, which manifests in the UI as a pop-up message telling you to reinstall the app (lol) or suck it up, and when you dismiss it, the app closes.

- if you do, then it will open up the Play Store specifically and require you sign in there. Whether it will work then, since Google doesn't know that you have this app installed (since you used Aurora), I don't know. If you don't and you just hit back or something, the app closes.

The developer of Stellarium Mobile says this is going to be the new standard for all apps. A friend that makes an Android game says he heard that he needs to update the in-app purchases SDK before November 2023, so presumably that's when all apps go dark that have any sort of plus/pro/premium version or donation functionality

So you're technically right of course, aurora still works, but if the apps that you can fetch from there don't work, then can I really tell people that they can use aurora instead of the play store?

Forgeties79• 3 years ago

My LG-C1 does this nonsense. It requires me to have an LG account to download 90% the apps I want (except the big dog streaming services of course) like Plex or GeForce Now. Interestingly enough it allows YouTube but not YouTube kids.

I’ve so far held out and am considering just getting some sort of Nvidia shield-like device (heard they sadly went down the drain over the last few years) to handle all my apps.

So basically LG is asking me to 1) have an account for internet which is separate from 2) my account for my TV which is separate from 3) the myriad of other apps I want to use and require logging in. But of course they leave out the big players that would (rightfully) call this burdensome on the consumer as they make sure access to their content is as streamlined as possible. So Disney/Netflix/Amazon/YouTube/Hulu get around this but everyone else doesn’t.

And execs are wondering why account sharing is so common and piracy is on the rise.

estebarb• 3 years ago

Those numbers can be easily obtained by people outside USA?

el-salvador• 3 years ago

It’s doable from my region, but it has to be done via a partner company that upsells additional services during the onboarding process. If I recall correctly there is a fee for creating the number and an extra free for updating the records.

As someone who is not from the U.S, it was surprising to learn that so many businesses rely on a number issued by a private company instead of a government issued Company ID or Tax numbers like the ones in other countries.

LeoPanthera5• 3 years ago

What services offer long term phone numbers without be having to create new "lines" on my cellular plan?

I currently use an app called "Hushed" but it is extremely expensive, especially compared to how much raw providers like Twilio charge.

There seem to be plenty of "disposable" phone number apps but I just want cheap extra numbers, without having to write code.

jki2753• 3 years ago

Google Voice...

LeoPanthera5• 3 years ago

Is it not the case that Google Voice only lets you have one additional number? I need a few.

simmons• 3 years ago

Any VoIP provider, I suppose. I have a few phone numbers at voip.ms, have a VoIP phone on my desk, and selectively forward the numbers to my cell phone. Outbound calls from a cellphone using such a number is a bit more awkward, requiring either a SIP app or calling into the system before punching in the number to dial. (Maybe there are apps to simplify this by now?) SMS is even more awkward, though there are some APIs.

LeoPanthera5• 3 years ago

I guess that would be OK except I primarily need SMS.

radley2• 3 years ago

OpenPhone https://www.openphone.com/

callalex• 3 years ago

What is preventing you from keeping a Twilio phone number long-term?

LeoPanthera5• 3 years ago

I have no way to "use" the number - I need an app that lets me make phone calls and texts.

fencepost2• 3 years ago

Number Barn? You can park a number with them for $2/month and have SMS and a recorded voice greeting (but no call forwarding), or for $6/month you can have calls forwarded to you.

You might be able to get something with a prepaid cell phone plan - at one point one of the carriers had something where purchased minutes didn't expire for a year after you'd passed a certain threshold, but no clue what it's like now - I haven't had a prepaid phone since the early days of analog to digital conversions.

Some of the dirt cheap voip carriers like magicjack might also have options but no idea what they charge.

Finally if you're on T-Mobile and don't have any free lines you might be able to add a line free, if not right now then when they do promotions somewhat regularly. The days of tons of free lines are gone, but if you have 2+ paid lines and no free ones they'll likely have a promo for you soon (it might actually reduce your bill because a free line still counts as a line for autopay discounts).

LeoPanthera5• 3 years ago

That's all really useful, thank you.

a2128• 3 years ago

Now not only will you be forced to endure unsolicited emails about boosting your app's ranking, but also unsolicited phone calls. I recently got a new phone number and it's already doomed to eternally receive phone calls about "boosting your business's ranking" because it was once listed on Google Maps for a business

Etrnl_President• 3 years ago

No more Google. This is why we can't have nice things.

radley2• 3 years ago

It says the phone number needs to be verified. It doesn't say a phone number is required.

skybrian• 3 years ago

When I signed up for Substack, I saw that there was a setting for "mailing address," which is pre-populated with Substack's mailing address.

Why? Because apparently there's a law that at the bottom of commercial email, you need to have a mailing address and unsubscribe link.

(So I guess if they got any mail for you, they'd let you know somehow?)

Similarly for getting a domain name. Technically, you are required to provide your mailing address, email address, and phone number. However, most registrars will let you keep them private and use theirs instead.

Perhaps something similar will happen for Android developers? There could be a relatively lightweight and user-friendly company that handles Play Store listings for indy developers.

Do such companies exist already? It would be interesting to hear from developers who use them.

frumper• 3 years ago

Will Google have a phone number?

lapcat• 3 years ago

Several years ago I discovered that the Chrome Web Store was giving out my home address to customers on the email receipt. There was no physical address set in my Chrome Web Store developer profile, but there was an address set in Google Pay. (This was before the Chrome Web Store eliminated its payment system.)

As soon as I found out, I changed my business address to Google's own address in Mountain View. Google didn't seem to have a problem with this, or didn't notice it anyway.

The "good news" is that my Chrome Web Store sales were quite low. But I never would have known if a customer hadn't emailed me a copy of their receipt (perhaps to get a refund, I don't recall).

taf2• 3 years ago

Interesting if you'd be interested in tracking both the play store listing number effectiveness at generating leads CallTrackingMetrics company can help. We focus on connecting humans to other humans.

hansvm• 3 years ago

What's the chance Linux phones will be a reliable option in the next 1-2yrs before this sort of BS does too much damage?

diggernet• 3 years ago

It takes a lot of nerve for this famously support-phobic company to require apps to publish phone numbers and addresses for support.

butz2• 3 years ago

So, what would be easiest way to move existing userbase to a PWA web app?

butz2• 3 years ago

There could be a big issue, as some websites are already scraping Play Store for developer emails, now they will have phone numbers too. And good luck removing them from some random apk download website.

pd33• 3 years ago

looks like a direct response to EU agreement https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_23_... "Furthermore, Google will facilitate also information on the company (e.g. legal name and address) and direct and effective contact points (e.g. a live telephone agent);"

friend_and_foe• 3 years ago

I think it's about time that one of the few popular Android forks breaks from upstream.

Google now requires and lists phone number in Play Store listings

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