Windows Phone 8 Apollo detailed, will have Windows 8 integration

http://www.winbeta.org/news/windows-phone-8-apollo-detailed-will-have-windows-8-integration

by ViolentJason • 14 years ago

63 86 14 years ago

untog5• 14 years ago

The integration between Phone 8 And Desktop 8 is going to be the most interesting part of both OSes, IMO. No details on exactly how it'll work yet, of course, but I don't think anyone has tried to merge desktop and mobile to quite the same degree that MS is apparently planning.

nextparadigms• 14 years ago

Well, both Apple and Google want to all but replace the whole "PC paradigm" with iOS and Android. The iPad already re-uses most of the code for the iPhone version, except with some design tweaks, and with Android it's the same. I can't see how this WP8/W8 "integration" could possibly be anymore "integrated" that what Apple and Google already have for both phones and tablets/hybrid devices.

Also, I can't help but think that Microsft will take the whole "homogenization" of platforms between mouse-driven PC, touch-driven tablet, and phones, a little too far. Some form factors do need optimized UI's and code for that form factor or device type. You can't just use a one-size-fits-all for everything. It would be like Google using the phone UI for Google TV. It would be a mess.

brudgers19• 14 years ago

>"I can't see how this WP8/W8 "integration" could possibly be anymore "integrated" that what Apple and Google already have for both phones and tablets/hybrid devices."

Developers! can use NET and Visual Studio from the compact framework on phones via Silverlight, right on up to Windows Server at your DataCenter.

Developers! get a continuous stack.

Developers! can integrate everything from an ATM to a Website.

[edits: formatting, add quote to which I was responding.]

aik• 14 years ago

This is exactly what makes it exciting for me. Microsoft is trying a fairly innovative thing here -- it's risky and perhaps too idealistic, but if they can pull it off so it works well, it'll be hard to beat.

cooldeal3• 14 years ago

I think WP8/W8 integration is rather overblown, but the difference in approaches seems to be that Apple and Google are scaling up phone OSes to a tablet OS, whereas MS seems to be scaling down a desktop OS to a tablet, while simultaneously taking the UI paradigm of their phone OS and scaling it up to tablet/desktop.

This means you can dock your Win 8 x86 tablet with a keyboard/mouse and be using the power of full Windows. You can write code for the tablet and debug it from the very same tablet using Visual Studio. You can't really do that with iPads and Android tablets which are relegated to being consumption devices only.

stcredzero11• 14 years ago

I can't see how this WP8/W8 "integration" could possibly be anymore "integrated" that what Apple and Google already have for both phones and tablets/hybrid devices.

I can see how:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3544522

drivebyacct22• 14 years ago

I've said this for a long time and I told them it when I interviewed with them. Tight integration between WP7 (or WP8) and the Windows desktop platform is their killer feature. iCloud is weak in my opinion and Google has no desktop OS presence to tie into and as much as I might want it to, Chrome and "the web" don't allow for (as someone else termed it) a well functioning and syncing "fat cache".

If I can make a Metro app for Windows 8 and hit all desktop and Win8-tablet users and get WP8 users for free or very little cost... I see the number of applications for Windows Phone increasing very quickly compared to their slow start thus far.

cooldeal3• 14 years ago

Don't bother submitting news like this. It will be falsely flagged like your other post http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3544173

Enough of those flags and your account will be hellbanned for the crime of posting Microsoft-centric news that anti-MS zealots on HN seem sensitive to. I posted this same news from Winsupersite earlier and it was hellbanned.

brudgers19• 14 years ago

It appears that everything from WinSuperSite is killed.

Here are two I posted:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3541271

http://www.winsupersite.com/blog/supersite-blog-39/android/7...

recoiledsnake2• 14 years ago

Happened to me too, I guess it's not enough for the fanboys cult to upvote Gruber, they have to flag Winsupersite as well.

ViolentJason• 14 years ago

wow that's lame. People abuse that flagging ability for stupid shit I guess.

rbanffy7• 14 years ago

With removable SD cards and network data usage metering Windows Phone will be unstoppable. Windows Phone is on track to take over the market in 2015 as predicted by IHS.

Sure.

edit: and Windows fans complain they are being downvoted... sigh...

brudgers19• 14 years ago

Snark and sarcasm are often downvoted.

Though sometimes downvotes are used to express disagreement, downvotes should be considered editorial feedback - either you didn't make your point clearly, or your comment is considered likely to derail the discussion.

Use the "edit" and "delete" links, respectively if you are concerned about the karma score of a particular comment.

It is bad form on HN to complain about down votes.

rbanffy7• 14 years ago

> It is bad form on HN to complain about down

I was trying to make a meta-point. There are root posts complaining every article criticizing Google and Apple is flagged into oblivion while the same happens to comments that are Microsoft-unfriendly.

In this case, it could be the sarcasm too. Anyway, it could be more productive to point me why my sarcastic assessment is wrong.

drivebyacct22• 14 years ago

I'm excited to see where Windows 8 and WP8 goes. I think the integration possibilities (especially if Microsoft ever decides to leverage Live properly) is potentially huge. That having been said, yes, these sorts of announcement posts are tiring. SD cards and NFC? Boring, catch-up.

I want to respect Microsoft, I really do. But when they launch updates that are still playing catchup to Android and iOS and simultaneous attack Android as an inferior product, I have to shake my head. When they attack Google's privacy policy consolidation when they offer no transparency about user data, offer no removal tools or liberation tools as Google does, I shake my head. When they hype IE9 and dog on Chrome for lacking features that Chrome has, in reality, had for years, I shake my head.

Build something awesome and I'll happily come back. Live.com gives Microsoft an opportunity to KILL iCloud and beat Goog/Android to the punch with a really good platform for syncing between devices and making your data ubiquitous across all form factors. But instead they're attacking people on Twitter and trying to convince me that their products are something they're not.

jobu2• 14 years ago

It's interesting what people find important about news like this. The fact that Win Phone 8 will support native code (C/C++) and cross-app communication is far more important to me than the Windows 8 integration.

As a platform I have been very impressed by Win Phone 7, and I hope they continue to execute as well as they have.

pjmlp2• 14 years ago

I agree with you.

Since the Build conference I have been hoping that they would make WinRT available on WP8.

stcredzero11• 14 years ago

Something occurred to me the other day with regards to integration, which mobile UX designers may or may not be aware of. What people really want is "Fat Cache."

Clearly, "thin client" was hyped and fizzled out, because it isn't quite what people want. They don't want a "thin client" to the cloud. A pure thin client is pretty dead when there's no network or the server's down. A "Fat Cache" would retain all of its functionality and the user's most used data. It would also have most of the advantages of thin client, namely invisible centralized administration. It would also ameliorate all of the disadvantages.

iCloud, Chromebook, and Kindle Fire/Silk Browser are all moves in this direction.

The focus of a computer user should be their data. This includes apps. The apps should also live in the cloud and just appear on all the user's devices. In fact, the user's application "session" should be in the cloud too. I should be able to start a session on a recipe app on my smartphone in the living room, then walk to the kitchen and just seamlessly continue my session on my tablet. No reopening the tablet version of the app, no repeating a search for the same recipe. At most, just one user operation to "open in tablet."

All these form factors should just be seen as interfaces to our data, just instances of a "fat cache."

brudgers19• 14 years ago

>"iCloud, Chromebook, and Kindle Fire/Silk Browser"

What do you do when the storm takes down your cable provider?

Or when you are beyond your cell phone carrier's signal?

And you have a project to get out the door.

theatrus2• 14 years ago

What do you do when the storm takes out the road, and you have a project to get out the door?

If the "fat cache" still lets you work in a disconnected state (such as iCloud would let you), I don't see this as a problem.

cryptoz• 14 years ago

You work on it locally, with your Fat Cache copy and your offline app. You sync up when the 'net comes back online. Should I ask you how you get your coding done when the power goes out? Either you don't get it done at all, or you write down ideas on paper. There's not much else you can do, and that's the way it is.

Frankly, I've only had about 10 minutes of total, unexpected and unavoidable network downtime in the last few years of my life. With a home internet connection and a smartphone in my pocket, if my power goes out I can work away online for hours and hours. Power outages and network outages happen so infrequently that if we have reasonably good offline apps and Fat Caches, we're good to go. And not only that, but we're approaching a place where can continue working almost uninterrupted if both the main power and the network go down.

wmf• 14 years ago

MS may be prepared to deliver something like that, since they have the old Danger/Kin stuff which was based on what you would call a fat cache architecture. MS also appears to be moving to a single-runtime (WinRT) future, so the "same" app may be available on phones, tablets, and desktops.

The idea of migrating an app session between devices is going to be pretty difficult in most cases because people use different apps on different devices to access the same data; Twitter is an extreme example but there are plenty of others.

stcredzero11• 14 years ago

people use different apps on different devices to access the same data

They do right now because they have to. Different apps/methods are best on different devices, and there's not enough thought to moving interfaces between devices. But if users didn't have to, and the mechanism worked well, they'd love it.

potatolicious2• 14 years ago

And yet, despite these features, the thing that will make or break WinPhone is still going to be the marketing and the hardware.

The Lumia 900 is a very big step in a very good direction. MS needs to double-down on this and stop kowtowing to Samsung et al, who are pushing out half-assed turds of phones that do a disservice to the brand.

The "free OS" segment of the market is taken by Android, and I think it'll take an act of god to unseat it at this point. WinPhone's only hope is to compete at the higher end with the likes of iPhone and Galaxy phones.

And marketing. God, the marketing. Where is it?

MS is betting the company on WinPhone, but where is the marketing message? Why aren't bus sheltered swimming in these ads? Why aren't they all over TV like Android and iOS is? Why are WinPhones still hiding in the darkest corners of the AT&T stores?

This is the biggest failing of WinPhone IMO - it's a fine platform and a fine product, but nobody knows about it.

jobu2• 14 years ago

Right now it seems like all of the marketing for Windows Phone is aimed at developers.

chj2• 14 years ago

And yet it doesn't support native code. What a big fail!

richbradshaw2• 14 years ago

I guess when handsets are actually for sale they'll start marketing it - right now everything about Windows Phones is for developers.

To be honest though, I'm not sure normal people will even want a Windows phone. Most people seem to equate Windows with brokenness, and Apple with luxury, so given that assumedly they will cost a simliar amount to an iPhone, I can't see your average person going for them.

Maybe I'm wrong, once Win8 is out and Metro is everywhere, maybe the phones will seem more desirable.

richbradshaw2• 14 years ago

OK - after posting this went and checked, and actually the phones are actually out now!

So... where's the marketing? Why haven't MS even mentioned them?

On carphonewarehouse (UK), the only way to find them is to search - they have an Apple section, an Android section, but no Windows section. The front page has Apple, Android, even Blackberry, but no hint of Windows...

How can you forget to market your product?

untog5• 14 years ago

The "free OS" segment of the market is taken by Android, and I think it'll take an act of god to unseat it at this point.

I disagree with that. Android does dominate cheap smartphones right now, but by and large they are terrible devices, and I (anecdotally) know plenty of people who regret their purchase. Compare to the Lumia 710, which is a very, very decent phone, and WP7, which is a very "put together" OS.

I absolutely think that MS could dominate the low to mid range smartphone market if they do it properly.

bri3d2• 14 years ago

I'd argue that "low to midrange smartphone" and "free OS smartphone" are two separate markets outside the US and Europe.

Inside the US where carrier phones are dumbphones, iPhones, Google-branded official-partner Android phones, or outliers, you're totally right - Windows Phone has a great shot at taking over the low-end to mid-range cheap-but-still-branded Android phones from LG, Samsung, and Motorola.

Overseas, where "free OS smartphone" is a market niche occupied by 500 Chinese things people in the US have never heard of with no Google branding whatsoever (and no or hacked Android Market access), Windows Phone doesn't stand a chance, because it can't be downloaded and hacked together.

barista• 14 years ago

How can android be a free OS when Microsoft is demanding as much as $15 for each device sold from the manufacturers?

bri3d2• 14 years ago

First off, I really like your point - it's good to note that most Android phones sold in Europe and the US are paying for the OS.

But there's another market to consider here, as well: Android can be a free OS overseas because it's freely downloadable and the source can be quickly ported to a random device made in a random Chinese factory, which Microsoft will probably never see or care about (and hence never demand patent licensing fees for).

This is a market niche that shouldn't be underestimated - ever looked at the "Phones" section on DealExtreme or had a friend come back from China with some kind of weird dual-SIM concoction? These are immensely popular in China and India, and now instead of paying contractors to write horrid proprietary dumbphone OSes, their manufacturers can pay contractors to quickly bake together an Android port (often with hacked Market access).

lawdawg• 14 years ago

Probably because WP7/7.5 phones will not be upgraded to WP8. Why waste money marketing a device that will effectively "go away" this October when WP8 is released? Microsoft has already decided to invest heavily in WP so it makes much more sense to save their marketing dollars until their long term/future OS has been finished.

For those that are unaware, WP7 and WP8 are built off of different kernels.

jbarham• 14 years ago

Tight integration between a mobile phone and a desktop OS is IMO a misfeature.

I have an Android phone and the only time I've had to connect it to my PC is to download photos. And then it looks just like another other USB drive w/ the top-level DCIM that my digital camera's SD card has. Just drag-and-drop.

On the other hand my in-laws bought iPhones and copying photos and MP3s to them via iTunes was confusing and very, very slow.

Consider too that for most people in the developing world, a mobile phone is the only "computer" they will own. Requiring integration with a desktop PC effectively cuts Apple and Microsoft off from a market of billions of people.

tomflack• 14 years ago

Tight integration between a mobile phone and a desktop OS is IMO a misfeature.

Based on your two examples it seems as if you feel this way because you've only experienced light integration or poor integration, and don't have the imagination to see past that.

If Microsoft can make it work, and offer something polished in the process then it could be something special. Remember they're counting the "desktop OS" of Windows as their tablet OS as well now. There exists untold numbers of opportunities for nice little integrations done well.

That's why you don't make it mandatory like you're suggesting.

igorgue• 14 years ago

Did anybody else pressed cmd+f UNIX when reading this article?

Windows Phone 8 Apollo detailed, will have Windows 8 integration

Related Stories