Lemon-derived nanoparticles block the progression of kidney stones

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acs.nanolett.2c05099

by WaitWaitWha • 3 years ago

201 142 3 years ago

pubs.acs.org

throwanem8• 3 years ago

Time I made a habit of drinking lemonade - a suggestion I'd have expected from my urologist, but not one I'm sorry to have run across whatever the source.

kldavis4• 3 years ago

Yes, it's strange that my urologist has never mentioned it either. I wonder if this result applies to all types of kidney stones or just calcium oxalate.

coffeeshopgoth2• 3 years ago

A preventative like this is good to know, but, really, all you need to do is drink a lot of water through the day. That is the number one way to avoid a kidney stone. I have had a urologist say, "Hell, you can drink enough beer, and you should be good." - Though, if you are prone to gout (your body generally likes to make crystals), beer ain't a great choice.

1letterunixname11• 3 years ago

Maybe because unscientific, folk advice on the internet isn't a replacement for evidence-based medicine.

qskousen• 3 years ago

I drink lemonade regularly (I make my own), but to prevent heartburn, as lemon turns into a base in your stomach and is very helpful with heartburn. Now knowing that it is also good for kidney stone prevention just puts the cherry on top!

throwanem8• 3 years ago

It looks [1] like limes have about as much citric acid, so cherry limeade should be as good an option, too!

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2637791/

arcanemachiner• 3 years ago

lemon turns into a base in your stomach

This doesn't make any sense to me. How can two acids combine to create a base?

1letterunixname11• 3 years ago

A good way to dissolve your enamel and get cavities. See a urologist instead.

throwanem8• 3 years ago

...he said, in direct response to a comment which includes the phrase "my urologist."

I can see that you know how to produce language, albeit by all appearances rarely at best to worthwhile effect. Do you know at all how to consume it? Or is jumping to wrong conclusions and then being snide about them the only trick you have?

jareklupinski• 3 years ago

I hope Realemon has the same nanoparticles

I can drink that stuff with seltzer forever

nrau2• 3 years ago

I got my first and so far only (fingers crossed!) kidney stone five years ago. At that time I started drinking lemon juice with hot water to start each day before consuming anything else, and it has so far kept any recurrence of kidney stones away. I really do believe the lemon juice has been key for me in this regard, and it is in any case a very healthy thing to do daily anyways (known and practiced by other cultures around the world).

Most folks who have kidney stones get them again and again, and anything that can help prevent this very painful event is critical. For anyone who does unfortunately experience kidney stones I highly recommend you try this option.

zadler2• 3 years ago

Did you have the kidney stones removed the first time round?

nrau2• 3 years ago

Fortunately I passed the stone in about 5 days. That's the best possible outcome as painful as that can be. I started the lemon juice about 3 days into the event and I do think it helped already in making the stone a bit smaller and getting it out of my body.

jv222224• 3 years ago

I opted for surgery on my 2nd stone and it was a terrible mistake IMHO I should have tried to let it pass. The first was painful but not THAT bad. Worst experience I've ever had.

Now when I get a tinge of pain I immediately take Chanca Piedra and it seems to have helped for past few years, no reoccurrence, but could just be anecdotal & conicendental.

Sindisil3• 3 years ago

Increasing citric acid intake does seem to be helpful, at least for calcium oxalate stones (one of the more command kinds).

I've had more than a few stones over the past couple decades, and when I finally got myself in to see a urologist, that was one of her primary recommendations.

That, along with some other treatment, seems to have helped considerably (only one non-trivial stone in the last ~12mo & the few others were barely noticeable).

moffkalast• 3 years ago

Why hot water specifically? That sounds like the worst kind of lemonade.

nerdponx• 3 years ago

It's actually very nice and refreshing. I've done this too at times for unrelated reasons. It feels "healthy".

nicoburns• 3 years ago

Think of it like a lemon tea. You can in fact get lemon flavoured tea (e.g. lemon and ginger).

heavyset_go• 3 years ago

In my experience, it isn't perceived as bitter/sour as it feels in cold water.

throwanem8• 3 years ago

I'm tempted to start taking a tablespoon or two of lemon juice in my morning orange juice - should be pleasant enough, as I like tart flavors anyway.

throwanem8• 3 years ago

...maybe not that tart, though.

In fairness, I keep the stuff around mainly for cocktails, but if Kingsley Amis is any example, having one of those every morning will certainly cause me many more problems than it's at all likely to solve.

mrexroad• 3 years ago

Hmm, I’ll go ahead and assume that consuming the lemon juice in a cocktail (e.g. a Sidecar) negates the benefits.

pmarreck3• 3 years ago

Do you think squeezing some lemon juice into, say, a morning tea, like maybe a Yerba Mate, would cover the requirement here?

Izikiel43• 3 years ago

Drink terere instead

sleepybrett6• 3 years ago

I've had a couple over the last few years. I've also started throwing lemon juice in my water bottle whenever I refill it. My urologist also suggested apple cider vinegar, I try to take a bit of that every day too (usually hot). It can help dissolve stones.

I personally don't find them particularly 'painful' more like profoundly uncomfortable. I find that I constantly am in a cycle of sitting for a few minutes then pacing around then maybe try and lay down, rinse repeat. A little heating pad time on my kidneys seems to make it less of a problem.

kevinak4• 3 years ago

I’d say in your case your stones probably haven’t been that big. My stones were the worst experience of my life - only IV morphine helped. And even that made the pain just tolerable. Horrible!

I do identify with the constant uncomfortableness though.

itshossein• 3 years ago

Though kidney stones are the most horrible experience of my life time (worse than being shot), you should take care of your bones as well.

Some studies linked high consumption of apple vinegar with early osteoporosis.

defen• 3 years ago

How much lemon juice? Like the juice of one whole lemon, or what?

1letterunixname11• 3 years ago

Doesn't matter. Don't do this. Take citrate as a supplement.

1letterunixname11• 3 years ago

You're going to erode your teeth enamel like that. Hot water has nothing to do with it. Timing has nothing to do with it. Citrate and water increase; oxalate, protein, and cola decrease are generally important. Also, being endocrinologically stable is important.

See a urologist because they form silently again and again. Unless you have x-ray vision, it's impossible to know their status.

Enginerrrd• 3 years ago

You're going to erode your teeth enamel like that.

Honestly, this gets repeated a lot, but I've yet to see literature that shows this is true. It is true that you can show erosion under ridiculous conditions that don't mirror the real world like immersing loose teeth in acidic beverages for days. But I've yet to find evidence that drinking unsweetened acidic beverages like carbonated water or water with a little lemon juice has any meaningful impact on tooth decay. Over and over again the actual epidemiology shows an association between sugar / processed carbohydrates and tooth decay.

coffeeshopgoth2• 3 years ago

Pretty good to know. For those of you that get gout and don't know about it, cherry juice is a good preventative and useful if you are having an attack. I will be making cherry lemonade a staple...

zoklet-enjoyer2• 3 years ago

Thanks for the tip! I've had a few bouts of gout the last 3ish years. The first time it happened I thought I broke my toe!

manaskarekar• 3 years ago

Band: Bouts of Gout.

Song: I thought I broke my toe.

Album: The last 3-ish years.

slillibri• 3 years ago

I wonder if C.C. Lemon counts? It contains lemon juice and, in my opinion, is the best thing ever.

ecommerceguy• 3 years ago

fyi March is National Kidney Month - https://www.kidney.org/content/national-kidney-month

ChatGTP5• 3 years ago

Does anyone know if you can drink something to reduce the size of an existing stone ?

I know it’s likely a “no”, but any novel treatments on the horizon ? I’ve received EWS and it’s not fun, did seem to reduce the size of a big stone I had though, 20mm

bitL5• 3 years ago

Take potassium citrate; eventually, drink a lot of beer.

ChatGTP5• 3 years ago

Thanks I'll look it up!

Also, I took some time off the booze, oh the irony...

sleepybrett6• 3 years ago

My urologist suggested that apple cider vinegar can help break up some types of stones. I usually do an oz or so in a mug of hot water. Lemon juice goes into my water bottle whenever I refill it.

olliej• 3 years ago

Oh wow actually reasonable use of “lemon derived” - I expected the usual “heavily processed with innumerable chemical reactions we converted oil from lemons into a new structure that in practice/volume would require starting with petroleum byproducts”.

This seems to be “we filtered these particles from lemonade and compressed them into pills to give to rats”

That said there’s also the required “in rats” missing from the headline, and I’m guessing the rats used are intentionally bred to get kidney stones, and fed a diet that encourages kidney stones, so the applicability to humans in normal cases isn’t a give . (Recalling the cranberry vs UTIs bs of a few years back)

bitL5• 3 years ago

Are those particles containing potassium citrate? Lemon is high in potassium and its citrate is known to dissolve existing kidney stones.

1letterunixname11• 3 years ago

False, fraudulent medical advice. Nothing can dissolve a kidney stone.

bitL5• 3 years ago

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20576821/

johnohara• 3 years ago

A honey and lemon tea is often recommended as an aid to digestion. To be taken first thing in the morning prior to breakfast.

eigenvalue2• 3 years ago

One of the most painful things I’ve ever experienced. I let myself get way too dehydrated while exercising on a very hot summer day, which brought it about (though I was obviously susceptible to them). I started hydrating a lot more and taking potassium supplements and luckily haven’t had them since. Thankfully I went to a great hospital, and the staff there knew how painful the condition is, so there was only around 15 minutes between when I arrived at the ER and when I had an IV of morphine in my arm.

sgtnoodle2• 3 years ago

Do you to think crystals can form that quickly to have been caused by a single day of dehydration?

I had one a couple years ago. My theory is that I had accumulated crystalization the year prior. I had a heart nerve issue and my heart rate was significantly reduced for several months, getting as bad as 30 bpm for a couple weeks. Normally it's about 80 bpm. My kidneys were definitely underperforming as indicated by blood labs performed when I ended up in the ED/ICU with "total heart block". With that problem resolved, my kidneys were happy again and the crystals presumably started to gradually dissolve.

My urologist dismissed my theory completely, but I've been generally disappointed by my experience working with them and I am on the verge of finding a new provider. My most recent ultrasound shows that the kidney that had the stone pass is totally clear, while the other kidney still has some crystalization.

eigenvalue2• 3 years ago

I actually don’t know much about it from a medical standpoint. But just from a pure Bayesian reasoning it seems overwhelmingly likely to me that it was the precipitating cause, since I never had it before that. I do think most doctors are very weak at identifying or even understanding patterns that are very unusual and which they haven’t seen before or read about. They generally don’t rely on first principles thinking but reason through pattern matching and referencing their training and experience.

pubby• 3 years ago

Two fun facts about kidney stones:

1) Roller coasters help dislodge and pass kidney stones because of their high-intensity jerky motions.

2) Although calcium supplements increase the risk of kidney stones, dietary calcium seems to reduce it.

malloci• 3 years ago

I’ve known two people who have had kidney stones and I don’t think either of them would have been able to withstand the pain from the stone enough to go on a rollercoaster. Then again, maybe the promise of ending the pain will give enough motivation to grit it out.

sleepybrett6• 3 years ago

I don't find they, at least the three I've passed, as particularly painful. It's more like an intense discomfort. I find myself in a cycle of pacing, laying down and sitting (mostly on the toilet, you feel like you have to pee constantly). It's like discomfort limbo.

bmurphy19764• 3 years ago

I had one that took a year to pass (and it was a big one). Only knocked me out for a couple hours every 2 to 3 months. Finally scheduled a procedure and I passed it one week before on Thanksgiving morning while cooking our dinner.

Had another smaller one that had me on hardcore painkillers for two straight weeks. It was so bad I wasn't eating or taking care of myself. I just popped pills and slept. Thankfully I was able to pull myself together and go back to the doctor to get on a different medication that at least allowed me to function minimally until I could pass it.

Point is you never really know what's going on in there and I certainly did go on some rides during the year of the larger yet somehow less bothersome stone.

1letterunixname11• 3 years ago

This is unhelpful. There are many types of kidney stones. See a urologist.

user39393822• 3 years ago

What’s the difference between a nano particle and a molecule?

tanseydavid• 3 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanoparticle

user39393822• 3 years ago

The answer to my question is 6 paragraphs into that article:

Being at the transition between bulk materials and atomic or molecular structures, they often exhibit phenomena that are not observed at either scale.

pama• 3 years ago

How does one induce more such nano particles to a preparation starting from a lemon? I don’t have a centrifuge, but is there a way to increase the concentration of such nanoparticles by using kitchen tools?

darkerside• 3 years ago

I'm a little astounded that there hasn't been a more effective physical intervention invented to handle kidney stones and gout. It seems like there should be a way to use high intensity ultrasound waves or something similar to break them up.

kevinak4• 3 years ago

Funnily enough using ultrasound is actually a pretty common treatment: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/treatment-tests-and-t...

car2• 3 years ago

The procedure is called extracorporeal shock wave lithotripsy. The idea was seeded by the observation during WWII that under water explosions caused organ rupture in survivors of ship sinkings that were in the water.

Dornier makes them:

https://www.dornier.com/products/

jillesvangurp• 3 years ago

Ultra sound is pretty effective and a common treatment. Basically breaks the stones up and you pass them on. My father had treatment for this some time ago and I wouldn't be surprised if I have to deal with this at some point either.

Lemons are nice in any case so consuming a bit more of those is not a burden for me. You can work them into food and beverages in all sorts of ways. Probably you should be careful with sugary drinks like lemonade. I wonder what's so special about lemons vs. e.g. oranges, tangerines, grapefruits, etc.

beilabs• 3 years ago

This is timely. I'm in hospital having just removed a 9.4mm stone from one kidney and some stones from the other. I don't want to go though this again.

thangalin• 3 years ago

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/368169226_Lemon-Der...

or113• 3 years ago

Ask HN: I have Sialolithiasis, which is like kidney stones but in the upper throat/jaw.

Any research like that? recommendations?

car2• 3 years ago

That’s stones in the salivary gland ducts. Can occur together with kidney stones. Sometimes caused by certain medications.

motyar• 3 years ago

I had them, got simple surgery procedure to get them out. There are very low chances to get them out without surgery.

aaron695• 3 years ago

Here's my goat with urinary stones - https://imgur.com/a/q7K26Z5

They paw the ground when in pain. Stones can kill in 24 hours. A lot of money later he was ok.

We fed him ammonium chloride in case it was a struvite a phosphorus based stone (magnesium ammonium phosphate)

But in the end it was a calcium based stone which requires an operation, which can be deadly and costly, so this is interesting.

Full paper here - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/368169226_Lemon-Der...

But lemons will make struvite's worse since they are alkalizing and you need acidic.

(This is just rough in my head, research the medical stuff properly)

The sooner we have cheap devices that can see inside bodies the better.

trallnag• 3 years ago

Cool goat

DantesKite• 3 years ago

Chanca Piedra works well too for kidney stones, UTI’s, and gallstones.

At least in my experience and people I’ve suggested it to, it seems to help significantly.

Worth a shot if you’ve tried a few things that haven’t helped.

gchokov2• 3 years ago

I just passed 6mm kidney stone - the stone itself travelled its way out for 2 months. It’s calcium oxidate based, so no chance of easy dissolving.. if it’s possible at all. I’ve had maybe about 4-5 days of strong, sometimes unbearable pain that I was taking painkillers for (without that much an effect..). Then few weeks of pain low down there.. Doctor wanted to give it a try for a “Via naturalis” passing, to which I agreed (no regrets). I have few more stones, with smaller sizes now... My doctors always recommended me beer with some lemon in it. Once in the past, I passed a kidney stone for less than 24h of the first pain (about 4mm) right after drinking 3 liters of beer. This whole thing sucks.

goddstream• 3 years ago

I'm a veteran calcium oxalate stone former; I've ended up in hospital three times because of them, and my last scan showed I currently am carrying 16 of them, (plus 3 bonus bladder stones). I'd thought I'd pass on what I've learned in the last 30 years; if helps one person, then I've been useful.

1. Drink lots of water (actually a very dilute lime juice/cranberry juice mix). I aim for 4 litres/1 gallon a day, more in hot weather.

2. Don't drink spirits (specifically - note to self - half a bottle of bourbon, no matter how delicious). They cause some weird kind of dehydration, which makes the stones painful.

3. If you start getting discomfort from a stone, drink more water. It seems to 'float' them somehow, and can usually make the discomfort go away.

4. The stones act like little breeding grounds for bacteria. So, if you have stones you will be prone to chronic infections. If you are a chap, then this can lead to chronic bacterial prostatitus, which can cause all manner of problems, leading to a having a catheter fitted. But, if you have bladder stones, the stones will break the little plastic widget that stops the catheter from falling out, which means it has to be refitted. So, you may need to take a low-level antibiotic like nitrofuratoin (there is some evidence that cranberry juice can also help, because it reduces the stickiness of bacteria).

5. If you are passing a stone, and they offer you morphine, decline it and hold out for something more powerful. Morphine seems to contract the tubes, only offers partial relief, and makes the problem worse in my experience. I once had an IM injection of (something beginning with pent~ - I wasn't in the mood to take notes at the time) which worked very well.

6. Avoid foods containing high oxalate levels, like spinach.

7. Don't take medical advice from strangers on the internet (like me).

gchokov2• 3 years ago

Similar stones here, all of the advices are spot on.

noduerme4• 3 years ago

Calcium stones run all along the male side of my family too.. and I've had a few. The notion to me that lemonade would be helpful is counterintuitive. Generally we've come to understand that high doses of Vitamin C are part of the problem, because that's been something the men in my family do to ward off sickness - but my father, who took 5000 milligrams of C a day for years, always got the worst stones of all.

> 2. Don't drink spirits.

This is probably true, but it contravenes the one piece of hard-won family folk wisdom that has helped me. Our method of removing kidney stones is as follows:

1. Go to a bar, take a piss if you can, then sit and order a Guinness.

2. Order 5 more Guinnesses and make a concerted effort to drink them all without taking a piss. Wait until you're absolutely desperate.

3. Go to the men's room and eject the stone. [the intoxication helps numb it, too].

I've watched my father pass them in the hospital; I remember remarkably twiddling one of his kidney stones in my hand as we drove him home, it was iridescent white and about the size of a shriveled pea. So far, though, this method hasn't failed me and I've yet to be hospitalized.

zadler2• 3 years ago

I like that they do this in a bar rather than at home

1letterunixname11• 3 years ago

This isn't a forum for unprofessional, unproven medical advice.

entwife• 3 years ago

5000 milligrams of C a day for years

Vitamin C supplements are synthesized from fermentation products of corn and wheat. [0]

A single lemon contains about 32 milligrams of Vitamin C, along with many other things. This study showed that it's lemon extract, not vitamin C alone, that improves kidney stones.

[0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24258144/

jeanvaljean2463• 3 years ago

Does the Guinness in particular play anything into it or could a lager or ale work better/differently? I find this gross, fascinating, and hilarious.

1letterunixname11• 3 years ago

I have a 15+ mm one. It's not going to pass and urologists already tried ESWL. They're waiting until it becomes a problem to remove it surgically because it will likely return.

Cola, excess vitamin C, and anything high in oxalate equal stone growth.

There are several stone types with different pathologies.

High citrate intake is generally good to counteract growth but there is no shrinking existing stones through diet. Anyone claiming this is a liar.

ESWL or surgery for anything larger than a few mm because passing would be brutal.

witnesser2• 3 years ago

solute from a private; are you not mentioning flo-max (if not spelled wrongly)? I got the so far first stone out by it like almost effortless.

nnurmanov• 3 years ago

I remember some urologist’s advice, she advised drinking a shot of cognac and two bottles of beer. The guy was having too many stones.

zeristor2• 3 years ago

I am not medically trained, and have only read up on kidney stones having seen a friend deal with them over several months.

No mention here of Shockwave lithotripsy to working breaking up the stones, obviously prevention is better than cure but at least in the NHS in the UK they can attempt to shatter the stones.

Also there’s several different type of kidney stones, of which 80% are Calcium:

https://www.healthhub.sg/a-z/diseases-and-conditions/629/kid...

zeristor2• 3 years ago

I guess a key point is to drink lemonade made from lemons, I’d imagine some lemonades use synthetic lemony chemicals.

Gives a new option for the old saying “If someone gives you Lemons, use them to treat kidney stones”

_a_a_a_2• 3 years ago

Question to stone-havers, wouldn't using tamsulosin/flomax make sense when trying to pass stones. I'm surprised to see only one mention to this in all the comments here. Perhaps it's not as helpful as I'd expect?

Sindisil3• 3 years ago

I do usually take Tamulosin when a stone starts playing road music. It seems to help, especially with middling and larger (say 4mm and up) but not as much as upping my liquid intake even more than usual. I've passed several without it and many with, and judge it to be worth keeping on hand.

Biggest thing for me has been to try to avoid additional formation (though I know from my annual imaging that I have at least 6 or 7 of my little buddies laying in wait). Citric acid, increased liquid intake, reduced intake of high oxalate foods (and/or taking calcium citrate or high calcium foods at the same time), trying not to hold my pee unnecessarily, and a prescription for hydrocholorothiazide have together greatly reduced my kidney stone formation. I got by with only a couple little ones last calendar year, and only one middling one (~4mm) so far this year.

Don't take any of that as medical advice, of course.

pvaldes2• 3 years ago

In some types a lithotrity machine can do wonders. Is basically being bombed with ultrasounds while taking a long bath, so could even be doable to DIY at home if you have some maker skills and for some reason can't go to a doctor.

The main concern should be to take serious care of not being electrocuted, put the speaker far and out of the water, protect your ears and assure that everything is well isolated. Using a 12 volt car battery as source of power could add a lot of safety.

Read a book for some time and then urinate into a piece of cloth in a strainer to see if it collects some sand. Rinse and repeat after some resting days for several weeks.

Or you can go to a discotheque

dtgriscom• 3 years ago

A DIY lithotripsy machine sounds like a reeeallly bad idea...

Earwig• 3 years ago

I don't know if this comment is intended seriously but just to be clear. Lithotripsy can cause acute tissue damage and long-term loss of kidney function.[1] The shock waves need to be carefully targeted at the stone and for the correct amount of time to reduce the risk of this, typically with X-ray or ultrasound. You can absolutely not do this at home!

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2900184/

pvaldes2• 3 years ago

"It appears that what was once considered to be an entirely safe means to eliminate renal stones can elicit potentially severe unintended consequences"

Doh! I stand corrected then. Thank you for the info

el_don_almighty• 3 years ago

Pasteurized lemon juice or fresh squeezed?

For example, when tenderizing meat with pineapple or lime, only fresh squeezed retains the enzymes that break down connective muscle tissue. Cans of pasteurized fruit or juice have no effect.

I wonder if this effect requires the same fresh source.

dam_broke_it• 3 years ago

Besides lemon juice or apple cider vinegar, any other recommendations??

Lemon-derived nanoparticles block the progression of kidney stones

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