The world’s first modern airliner

https://onfirstup.com/boeing/BNN/articles/the-world-s-first-modern-airliner-1

by rustoo • 3 years ago

41 29 3 years ago

xnorswap• 3 years ago

This feels like a re-writing of history. The world's first jet airliner was of course the de Havilland Comet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Comet

It takes a stretch to suggest that it was the plane described in the article rather than the Jet Age that marked the transition to what could be described as a "modern airliner".

smcleod• 3 years ago

Absolutely agree, it looks like it's just a marketing puff piece.

cstross• 3 years ago

Qualified disagreement -- it's all about the word modern.

The Comet airframe was inherently limited by the decision to embed the engines -- de Havilland Ghost turbojets -- in the wing roots. Obviously this wwas great for drag reduction, but it made it difficult to modify the design to accommodate other, more efficient/economical engines. In the end, the attempt to refit the last Comet-descended airframes, the RAF's Nimrod MRA2's to MRA4 spec with Rolls-Royce BR700 turbofans in the 1990s/2000s failed due to spiraling prices because the higher diameter turbofans required substantial redesign/reworking of the wing roots. More here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Nimrod_MRA4#Delays...

Now compare this to the succssful engine retrofit program for the USAF's KC-135 fleet, which kept them in service for a couple more decades:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_KC-135_Stratotanker#Eng...

Having the engines hung on pods below the wing (or alongside the fuselage) makes them inherently easier to service and easier to upgrade (although problems can emerge if you push it too far, as witness the Boeing 737 MAX crashes).

This isn't to dismiss the Comet completely: it was a pioneering design, broke ground, and was the first trans-Atlantic jet airliner in service. But it had design flaws beyond the infamous metal fatigue problem.

hef19898• 3 years ago

The Comet, also known for square windows and structural design weaknesses. But agreed, it was the comet who started modern civil aviation.

If you want to start earlier, I'd personally pick the Super Constellation so.

rsynnott• 3 years ago

This is a propellor airliner, from a generation before the Comet. Though even then it's unclear what makes it the first modern airliner; if you're defining that as "metal, purpose-designed, more than 10 passengers", as they seem to be, the similar Junkers Ju 52 was around earlier (this is mostly remembered as a military aircraft now, but started life as a civilian airliner).

jacquesm• 3 years ago

Then we can go back all the way to 1920:

https://blog.klm.com/klms-first-real-passenger-seats/

seanmcdirmid• 3 years ago

I feel like you and the article are talking about different things since the 247 was a prop plane in 1933, and the precursor to the DC-1, 2, and 3. The DC-3 being of course one of the most successful planes in history, and is still in service as an airliner in some places. How many comets are still flying on regular schedules?

notahacker4• 3 years ago

Debates about what counts as "modern" are always subjective, but the DC-3's longevity owes a lot more to its indestructibility, its convertibility to non-airliner uses, and and relative lack of interest on the part of modern airframers in newer small, slow models optimised for bouncy landings than it having much in common with what most people think of as a "modern" airliner.

Similarly, the lack of first generation jets flying today has a lot more to do with metal fatigue and the maintenance requirements that resulted than the notion that small slow planes with less to go wrong with them are a more modern design. Suspect there are more retro rotary phones in service than first generation iPhones today for similar reason, but I'm not sure that weakens the iPhone's claim to be the first modern mobile phone.

leoedin• 3 years ago

The Comet wasn't particularly successful (at least in part because of its fundamental design flaw) - but the military version - the Nimrod - flew until 2011.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Siddeley_Nimrod

CPLX2• 3 years ago

Wait until you learn that the "early modern" period started in 1400 or so.

The point being that the term modern is most certainly subjective and definitely has usage that is different from "contemporary" even though the latter is how people often read it.

pmcjones• 3 years ago

I flew on a Douglas DC-6 and a DC-7 in 1957 -- they seemed quite modern to me at the time, despite having propellers.

idontwantthis• 3 years ago

I highly recommend reading “Fate is the Hunter”. A memoir of an airline pilot from this time.

cafard2• 3 years ago

I should say that a modern passenger plane is one that can be used practically for regular service, at a reasonable cost. I don't know whether Boeing's plane was the first to meet that criterion or not. But there was regular air service in North America using prop planes before jet airliners were in widespread use.

situationista• 3 years ago

The Boeing in question is a prop plane, not a jet.

CPLX2• 3 years ago

Hacker News is a popular message board where participants use article headlines as free association discussion prompts.

cafard2• 3 years ago

No kidding. I read the article, I saw the propellers. I posted because there seemed to me many commenting who thought that modern necessarily implied a jet.

clarkdale• 3 years ago

What was the first widely produced aircraft to feature a pressurized cabin for passengers?

One could say a major milestone in aviation was the first need for a toilet. What aircraft started travelling such lengths of time that a toilet is necessary?

HPsquared• 3 years ago

The B-29 was the first mass-produced pressurized aircraft. Boeing 307 was an earlier passenger airliner, but only 10 were built.

Lockheed Constellation was the first mass produced pressurized airliner.

eesmith• 3 years ago

first widely produced aircraft to feature a pressurized cabin for passengers

"While the first experimental pressurization systems saw use during the 1920s and 1930s, it was not until 1940 that a commercial aircraft would enter service with a pressurized cabin, when the Boeing 307 Stratoliner ..." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabin_pressurization

What aircraft started travelling such lengths of time that a toilet is necessary?

For airplanes, looks like the Vickers Vimy Commercial in 1919. https://archive.org/details/airliners0000wall_v8m6/page/56/m... says "The fuselage of the standard Vimy had been completely rebuilt to give an enclosed cabin with seating for 10 passengers and a lavatory. Company records appear to have been unusually discreet about mentioning this last very necessary facility, but the Vimy appears to hold the record for the first airborne toilet."

Since that the term "aircraft" includes airships, I'll offer LZ 10 Schwaben (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LZ_10_Schwaben), as a likely earlier example. DELAG ("the world's first airline to use an aircraft in revenue service" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DELAG) started flying it in 1911.

davidw• 3 years ago

When United placed its order for 60 airplanes, it was only natural for Boeing to fill their order before building more for other U.S. airlines. When Transcontinental & Western Air (TWA) was told their order had to wait, they went to Douglas Aircraft Co. and asked Donald Douglas to build an airplane superior to the Model 247.

That evokes something of a bygone era where people just went out and built stuff.

fractallyte• 3 years ago

To my eyes, the Lockheed Model 10 Electra was a much nicer looking plane (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Model_10_Electra). It was also Amelia Earhart's choice for her round-the-world attempt.

There's one on display in the Science Museum in London: https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co29932...

drewcoo• 3 years ago

That was 1935.

I would have said a Douglas DC-2, but that was also a year after the Boeing 247.

Oh, lookie at your wiki link. All competitors!

richij• 3 years ago

Americans rewriting history again, I see.

gumby• 3 years ago

The Model 247 made its first flight on Feb. 8, 1933. It was an immediate success. United Air Lines placed an order for 60...

Note that this was before the government broke up United Aircraft and Transport Corporation into United Aircraft (i.e. Pratt & Whitney), Boeing, and United Airlines. In other words the vertical monopoly "bought" its own planes.

The world’s first modern airliner

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