Is it bad if I don't want to work at a C++/Java startup?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34461

by gregwebs • 19 years ago

17 86 19 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I have an opportunity to work at a company coming in as employee# < 10. They are doing so well that they are already profitable after a year and trying to keep up with the demand. I think I would really like working there, except that they use C++/Java. I want to accomplish as much as possible in my life, and coding memory management in C++ or otherwise being limited to unexpressive languages just seems to prevent that goal.

PindaxDotCom• 19 years ago

If you really want to accomplish as much as possible in your life, you could start by throwing out your prejudices. Computer languages aren't religions, they're tools, get over it.

gregwebs8• 19 years ago

Throwing out predjudices is always good advice. However, Paul Graham and others have argued (convincingly) that a language is not a tool. A compiler is a tool. A language is the actual medium that a programmer works in. It will effect every aspect of a software project, including the way in which the programmers think.

mdakin5• 19 years ago

Sucks to your Sapir-Whorf hypothesis! That said higher-level languages do have real, non-mythical advantages over lower-level ones if one is trying to work quickly and with minimal effort. Good luck with your decision.

budu3• 19 years ago

I think you're being petty. If you like the vibe of the startup and you think they have a future then go ahead.

mattculbreth2• 19 years ago

Going to dissent with the other respondents. If you think you'll be unhappy (and therefore probably unproductive) using C++ then don't do it. There are other startups, and of course you could always do your own thing and pick your tools.

This isn't to say that C++ is necessarily bad, but I wouldn't want to work in it (again) either.

gregwebs8• 19 years ago

I don't think I would be unhappy and uproductive, just not as happy and productive as I could be.

brlewis2• 19 years ago

There are many more factors to accomplishing as much as possible than coding efficiently. Go join them and find out what they're doing right. Later you can do your own project and add the advantage of a superior language to the advantage of knowing what a successful startup looks like.

gibsonf1• 19 years ago

As much as I am a huge Lisp fan, you give some excellent advice.

brett2• 19 years ago

Definitely. If your main goal is joining a startup with a chance of success then you should be evaluating the people involved. Their language choice should be a data point, but ought to be taken strongly in context of their backgrounds and the problem they are trying to solve.

In the context of I want to accomplish as much as possible in my life, all other things being equal the particular language you happen to be using for the next few month-years will probably prove insignificant.

nostrademons7• 19 years ago

A caution: if they're doing everything else right except the language choice, then chances are they will end profitable and successful by at least some definition of success, but will not be as successful as they could be. It's very tempting in this situation to sit back and enjoy being an employee at a successful company. That will not get you any of the big payoffs or excitement of a startup.

If you're going to settle on programming language choice so you can learn all the other stuff, you have to be willing to cut said successful startup loose and strike out on your own once you've learned all the other stuff. This will look increasingly irrational the better you do at your job.

willarson2• 19 years ago

I think the important question is "why are they using C++/Java?"

If they are using them for efficiency reasons, then this may be a case prematurely optimization, and they may not like the tools either, but feel trapped into using them.

On the other hand they may be using them because they are most comfortable and experienced using them. This is a pretty good reason to use a language, but eventually leads to stagnation.

gregwebs8• 19 years ago

From what I gather, it would always be better for their product to run faster, so they probably felt they had to use C++. I believe they are using Java for the front end because they found good libraries for what they wanted to do. It is possible they are being productive with their Java code by using pre-exising libraries, but their C++ is from scratch. It does also seems that they are comfortable and experienced using both languages. I don't think it crossed their mind to use other fast languages in place of C++ such as D, O'Caml, or Haskell.

aston9• 19 years ago

This is some hardcore language hate. C++ is the production coding language. Java is the enterprise coding language. You should want to join these guys just to get your head around why all the companies who make a truckloads of money doing software use these languages.

pg4• 19 years ago

What is "production?" Whatever it is, few web apps I admire do it, if it means writing code in C++.

aston9• 19 years ago

Point taken, but mine still stands. Basically all of the software companies with market cap north of a billion dollars have web-facing apps written in C++ and Java.

Whether you admire them or not is another issue entirely.

cperciva• 19 years ago

The fact that very few web applications use C++ doesn't mean that using C++ is a bad idea. Most web applications are absolute garbage, both in terms of the concepts behind them and the actual implementations.

Personally, I write code in C. Does this mean I write fewer lines of code? Possibly. Does it mean that I write fewer GOOD lines of code? Definitely not. Working in C forces me to think about what I'm doing in a way that I wouldn't do if I were using a more flexible language like perl; and as I've written about before, I firmly believe that thinking before coding is a key ingredient in producing good code.

Returning to the original question: I would never work for a startup which was using C++ or Java, simply because those languages are too flexible. If you don't know what function pointers are, you shouldn't be using them -- and that applies doubly if you don't even realize that you're using them.

Goladus• 19 years ago

Why would you join a 10-person company to figure out why a billion dollar company behaves a particular way?

aston9• 19 years ago

You should join the 10-person company to figure out why a 10-person company behaves a particular way. I wouldn't be surprised if a number of aspects aligned between companies big and small with regard to choice of language.

maxklein• 19 years ago

Don't be fulled by selective perception. C++ and Java are the backbone of software.

smg2• 19 years ago

If you are really good at C++ (gork template metaprogramming, Alexandrescu's Modern C++ design) you will be as or more productive than most average people programming in Ruby or Python. Instead of focusing on the language think about the kind of people you are working with. Today you will find a lot of kool aid drinking kids coding in lightweight languages and quoting from Hackers and Painters at every opportunity. That does not mean they produce high quality software

euccastro10• 19 years ago

That's not saying much in favor of C++ is it? If you are really really good at assembly you will be more productive than most average people programming in any language. That's because most average people aren't very productive at all.

But this wasn't his question. If he has what it takes to get really good at C++, he will probably get really good at Ruby or Python in that time.

I happen to work in a place where we use Python and C++, and I claim that for any problem domain for which higher level (lightweight?) languages are suitable, they are a clear productivity win over C++, for people of similar experience.

I agree that people are more important than language, but the choice of language also tells you something about the people. I suppose the poster has more relevant information about the people, though.

umjames• 19 years ago

It also doesn't mean that they don't produce high quality software.

Remember, that when it comes to programming language choice, you often end up with programmer happiness (low ramp-up time to get something implemented) vs. performance.

It would be good to find out how open the place is to different languages. You may be able to write most of it in the language of your choice and only have to switch to C++/Java where necessary. This should especially be true at a Web-focused company.

mdakin5• 19 years ago

Personally I'd take a great team of smart, flexible people over my choice of programming language any day. I think it all comes down to the specifics of your nature, the team, and its environment.

edgeztv• 19 years ago

I hear you. Right after grad school, I turned down an offer to work in a small (and very profitable) CAD company with good people mainly because I didn't want to code in C++ (and wanted to work with the web). A year later I chose a smaller web company over Microsoft partially for the same reason.

Java, one the other hand, works pretty well if you have a lot of experience with it and use the right tools (IntelliJ IDE). I feel like I am more productive with Java+IntelliJ than with Python.

Good luck with your decision.

sabhishek• 19 years ago

It depends, If you don't like doing C++/Java don't go for that. imo don't force yourself to do anything you don't like for that matter. True that C++ is losing its sheen and Java is being called a new age Cobol , but they still dominate the scene, its a matter of personal preference.

mynameishere• 19 years ago

C++. Pshaw.

Only crap companies like ID Software use that. What has Quake got on the awesome expressiveness of Flickr, or Facebook or Google Suggest? I mean, just in terms of sheer output, consider that BOTH Flickr and Facebook are able to...display text on a screen! And put jpegs in neat columns in div tags!

Pshaw. What has C++ got on that?

Seriously. Do away with the tunnel vision. When you're talking consumer software, all of the output of all of the languages of the world combined absolutely pale compared with that of C/C++.

euccastro10• 19 years ago

Nope. Hand optimized assembly pwns C/C++. And still, ID uses almost none of that. Do they have tunnel vision too?

Flickr and Facebook don't display text on a screen. The web browser does that. What Flickr and Facebook do is serve content to huge amounts of people. In order to scale to these extents, your choice of language is not nearly the most relevant decision.

Also, speed of execution is critical for web companies, while one of id's mottos is "it's done when it's done".

nostrademons7• 19 years ago

I am in almost the exact same situation, except with 2 years of hindsight. I joined a startup straight out of college as employee #13 (at the time, it had about 8 employees in the office at any given time). It was profitable, I liked the people, and they were doing some pretty cool stuff.

Overall, I would do it over again but probably will not remain with them for much longer, if that makes any sense. Some observations:

The language choice will grate on you after a while. I dunno what the background of posters saying "Be professional. Suck it up." is, but I actually liked Java coding when I started, and have since learned to hate it. If you're going in with a strong aversion to Java & C++ already, it'll probably only get worse.

Flip side is that you do get better at these languages after you work with them a while, as long as you keep an open mind. There are tricks and tools in C++ to help you manage memory - you shouldn't be tracing pointers from new to delete. And Java's verbosity isn't as bad once you get used it and consider "for(int i = 0; i < array.length; ++i)...." to be a single map function that just has a really long name. ;-)

One question to ask that'll help you determine if the language will end up becoming a total drag: are they using it because the problem fits the language's strengths, or are they using it because they don't know any better and aren't comfortable with multi-language solutions? Every mainstream language is good for something. In my case, I was perfectly happy as long as I was writing IDE plugins and server software in Java, and then became very unhappy once I had to write a webapp. (IMNSHO, Java is irredeemably broken for webapps; the only sane way to do them is to strip out all the JavaEE bullshit and program on bare servlets, but then you get something that's nowhere near as nice as Python/PHP/Perl.)

There are plenty of things beyond programming that you learn from working in a successful (profitable) startup. OTOH, it's not rocket science. Basically, you can boil it all down to: 1.) Make something people want, 2.) Charge more for it than it costs you, and 3.) Fix problems now rather than later. Every failed startup I've been involved with has neglected at least one of these: every successful startup has done all three.

I dunno what you expect financially out of this, but be aware that founders get rich, late-stage employees get paid, and early-stage employees get screwed. At least in proportion to the amount of effort they put in. One startup I worked in went bust, taking my 0.1% of stock options with it. One that I interviewed at offered me about 0.01% of the company; I did the math, and calculated that at their expected $40M exit, I would get a whole $4000. I have no equity at my current employer. My cubemate was an early employee at CCBN, which was sold to Thomson for about $40M. He got $3K or so. I have another friend who was employee #35 at Stratus and later a VP; she was rich for a while when they ended up with a billion-$ market cap, but ended up poor again after the stock crashed. If you plan on being an early employee at a startup, you should do it for learning or for the experience rather than any perceived financial rewards.

jmzachary• 19 years ago

In case nobody tells you today, this is a damn good post.

pg4• 19 years ago

I think your experience as an early employee may have been unusual. A startup getting a series A round is typically made to set aside about 20% of the stock for new hires. So .01% is a preposterously low offer, unless the company was huge.

nostrademons7• 19 years ago

I would've been employee #22 at the company. I also worked at another startup - 0.1% for employee #13. That may have been low-balled a bit because I was straight out of high school.

I've heard that the options pool is usually about 20% of the company, the first hire gets about 2.5%, and then it decreases exponentially from there. So the second hire might get 1.5%, the third 1%, the tenth about 0.2%, the 20th 0.01% (perhaps a bit higher; it seemed low to me too, which is why I didn't take the job), and on down. If you gave 2% to each of the first 10 employees, the options pool would be exhausted right there.

Of course, the company is hopefully growing all this time. But if you're employee #20 or even #10 and the company is profitable, they may be heading for a liquidity event soon, in which case there's not much time for growth.

My current situation - no equity at all - is atypical, because it's a bootstrapped startup and the founder really wants to maintain control. IMHO it's probably a mistake - I know I'd work a whole lot harder if I had equity. But I get a decent salary, and it's really the founder's call...

smg2• 19 years ago

So what is the typical % for employee # < 10 ? I know that there will be variance depending on the employee and the employer so I am asking about the average range.

menloparkbum2• 19 years ago

It doesn't sound TOO unusual. Facebook apparently is the next Google, and there is no shortage of news about projects being started by ex-facebook engineers. Why would they leave, unless their equity package was pathetic?

The 20% set aside is usually reserved for "key hires" which is assumed to mean a flotilla of VP level people. If you follow the standard Silicon Valley VC-backed startup script, this means the VP of Product, the VP of Product management, the VP of Operations, and so forth. After the A round, engineers are usually looking at an equity maximum of 0.25-0.5%.

"be aware that founders get rich, late-stage employees get paid, and early-stage employees get screwed" is a great maxim. Unless your company is truly on track for a $1B acquisition or IPO, you are not going to be able to buy a house with an early-stage engineer's equity.

cwilbur• 19 years ago

If you think you'll be unhappy doing the actual work that you'll be doing when you take the job, the job isn't worth it. There's no difference between being employee #9 or being employee #99999 in that regard.

Also, if they're successful enough with their current languages, you will not change them. Taking a job saying "I know they use X, but I'll talk them into using Y instead, and then I'll be happy!" is like entering a relationship saying "I know she does X that drives me nuts, but I know if I pester her enough, she'll stop it, and then I'll be happy!" Doesn't work that way.

uuilly• 19 years ago

I think there is nothing more miserable than working with tools that you don't like. Part of the allure of starting a startup was not compromising an inch on the exact tools you want. Follow your bliss, not your stock options.

That said, I suspect most people that pan C++ have never extensively used or understood the STL or Boost Libraries. Undergrad C++ is nothing more than a basic introduction to the language.

reeses• 19 years ago

There's a broad line with "C++/Java". You can use C++ as a safer C, and yes, that's generally unpleasant. But if you're leveraging STL, Boost, and some GC like Boehm, among other extensions, it's a great deal better. Same with Java -- if you're leveraging Java 5/6 functionality, using Groovy for scripting, etc., you're going to be stretching your brain with something other than memory management.

Ask them how they use the languages, and you might find they wrote their own compilers for DSLs or other things you'll enjoy working on.

All that said, the market is ripe right now, and it's a good time to be a prima donna about what you'll work on.

jsjenkins168• 19 years ago

I've noticed there is a negative bias towards the "enterprise" languages by many on this forum. Not calling out gregwebs in particular, just speaking generally.

I think much of the negativism stems from the hacker mentality that big companies are evil and that breaking the rules is cool. Therefore anything that big companies do or use is automatically uncool.

Nothing wrong with this mindset, but I think it often goes too far with some. Java and C++ are not bad languages. Yes, most large software companies use them but there are some reasons why they might be a desirable choice. One is that these languages work well in a collaborative work environment. There are many proven debugging tools, established QA practices, very good IDEs with integrated revision synchronization tools, etc. While these may not matter for the hacker or small group of hackers creating something cool, they are very important considerations for a growing software company who has plans to scale.

So with this understanding in mind I wouldn't automatically rule out a company based on the fact they code in C++/Java. Ask them why do and you might discover that there's more there than what meets the eye.

gregwebs8• 19 years ago

There is definitely something wrong with the mindset that big companies being evil. However, the bias towards "enterprise" languages does not come from this. It stems from experience in working in big companies that are unproductive. It also comes from personal use of the languages, and reading about, exploring, and programming in different languages.

herdrick3• 19 years ago

Your instincts are good - I'd guess that you'd slowly come to despise your job

So, what're your languages/tools of choice?

gregwebs8• 19 years ago

I am still working on the language of choice- I am learning Haskell and Scheme.

herdrick3• 19 years ago

Great. I don't know much about Haskell, but Scheme is a great language for startups. Start your own and apply to YC!

What are you using for learning Scheme? I recommend this one: http://herdrick.blogspot.com/2006/03/what-all-books-ought-to...

After that, take a look at the Scheme Cookbook for specific tasks. http://schemecookbook.org/Cookbook/

cmars232• 19 years ago

All languages suck, they're all Blub. Get over it. It seems kind of silly to be a language snob if the team and opportunity are right.

Who knows, you might be able to embed scripting in their product. Maybe automate a test suite with dynamic bindings to their libraries. Or maybe be the voice of reason when someone on the team discovers design patterns or IoC and gets delusions of grandeur.

davidz• 19 years ago

Why place so much emphasis on the language rather than the outlook of the startup? If the startup looks promising and you believe in it. It shouldn't matter if you need to work in _____(Write language here), I'd certainly go for it.

tx3• 19 years ago

Nobody in their right mind has been coding "memory management" in C++ for the last 10 years. This is not early 90s anymore.

Also, if your ability to "accomplish as much as possible" in your life is so severely limited by the programming language s(i.e. tool) you use, then you should probably rethink your approach to engineering.

tx3• 19 years ago

Another thought. Just very recently someone posted "Ask Reddit: what is the most beautiful code you've ever seen?"...

Knowing how much reddit dudes love LISP, Haskell, Ruby and Python, I was very surprised to see that almost exclusively everyone's favorite piece of code was written... you guessed it - in C.

tx3• 19 years ago

Yet another thought! :-) Since company is so small, you can actually get them to migrate from C++ to D! That would have been awesome...

geebee• 19 years ago

I know I'm chiming in very late here. The original post asked if it is "bad if I don't want to work at a C++/Java startup."

Of course not. This thread has turned it around a bit - phrasing the question as if you wanted to work for a C++/Java startup (or at least if you felt neutral about it).

I'm not surprised that's what's being discussed, because those are the more interesting questions. But if you feel in your gut that you don't want to work in C++ or Java, then for god's sake man, don't do it. You'll be really unhappy, and I'm sure you'll have other opportunities.

Is it bad if I don't want to work at a C++/Java startup?

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