The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

http://www.walrusmagazine.com/articles/2012.01-cities-the-invention-of-waterloo

by DanBC • 15 years ago

112 72 15 years ago

reso4• 15 years ago

In my opinion, the engine of Waterloo's success is the university's unique co-op program. UW operates on a four-month rotating co-op system, each student does four months of school, then four months of internships, repeat for the duration of their degree. Many of us land in the Valley, or NY, or London, and bring what we learn back here. Most of my friends have multiple google/facebook/valley start-up internships on their resume by the time they graduate.

I was a little disappointed that they didn't mention our vibrant start-up scene. I write this now from Velocity, the university's start-up incubator, from which four YC companies have graduated. There are Union Square and Sequoia-funded companies in town, and we account for every Google acquisition in Canada, ever.

wonderercat• 15 years ago

As a UW alumnus doing a full-time startup a few blocks from UW, I actually don't see much of this "vibrant start-up scene" happening.

This is entirely my fault, which leads me to the question I've been wondering about for a while now:

Where in town would I go to get hooked in?

VeloCity has always been on my radar, but their site is terribly uninformative and doesn't give much of a place to start.

I hang around the university quite a bit but this hasn't gotten me any leads, either.

fraserharris3• 15 years ago

A lot of stuff are going at the Communitech Hub (i'm in the Velocity Workspace) and the Accelerator Center. There is free drinks & food for startups Jan 11th 5:30 - 7:30 at the Accelerator Center.

troymc• 15 years ago

Check out Gary Will's blog:

http://blog.garywill.com/

and StartupCampWaterloo:

http://startupcampwaterloo.org/

nobodysbusiness• 15 years ago

Come visit DevHouse for some informal tech discussions and presentations: http://groups.google.com/group/waterloo-dev-house

(Originally founded by the PostRank people that have now been acquired by Google and have thus moved to California)

shazow7• 15 years ago

Funny, I came here to say the exact opposite--how the four-months-at-a-time thing doesn't make any sense to me because I've always experienced the vast majority of learning during the 4-12 month range of my employment periods.

University of Toronto (my alma mater) does 18 month coop terms which make marginally more sense to me. I'm generally anti-coop for people who would have no trouble finding a job when they graduate without coop.

> We [Waterloo grads] account for every Google acquisition in Canada, ever.

That's completely untrue. There are plenty of UofT grads acquired into Google, off the top of my head: Bumptop[1] (or even myself[2] if you count that). A bunch more from BC and Montreal, I'm sure. I'd be skeptical of a claim that Waterloo even accounts for a majority of Canadian acquisitions into Google.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumptop

[2] http://venturebeat.com/2011/10/10/google-acquires-socialgrap...

AlexBlom2• 15 years ago

Exactly. Waterloo have had some solid pops, just as everywhere else. Waterloo simply seems to be some of the most visible.

fraserharris3• 15 years ago

Going by List of acquisitions by Google [1], and from my knowledge of the founders (which is not complete by any means):

Reqwireless - UW founders

BumpTop - UT founders

Zetawire - Uvic / UT founder

SocialDeck - UW founders

Pushlife - UW founder

PostRank - UW founders

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_acquisitions_by_Google

redthrowaway• 15 years ago

>I'm generally anti-coop for people who would have no trouble finding a job when they graduate without coop.

I don't care how good a coder you are when it comes to personal projects, or how well you do in ACM comps, the skills you gain from working on large-scale projects are invaluable to employers. True, the top 5% of CS students might have no trouble finding work anyway, but co-op can turn the next 30% from risky hires into pretty (relatively) sure bets.

potatolicious7• 15 years ago

UW alumnus here, IMO the PEY makes very little sense to both the student and employer. From the employer side, you're committing yourself to 18 months of full-time employment for someone who is an unknown value - I've heard this from multiple employers that the four-month terms are more attractive, since it's not nearly as damaging to make a bad hire. Worst case scenario you let the kid sit around and twiddle their thumbs for the last month or two. Long terms lead to more conservative hiring, leading to less placements overall.

From the student side, co-op isn't just about learning how it is to work in-industry, but also to gain a breadth of experiences and find out where you want to be (or more cynically, where you stand a chance). I had 6 co-op terms spread over 5 companies, and it's been a huge career accelerant - I started off working at a no-name code shop, which paved the way to a brand-name code shop, which convinced someone at a highly algorithmic code shop to take me on for 4 months, and that finally got the Big Boys (Goog, Facebook, Amazon, MSFT, etc) to take me seriously enough to hire me. I simply could not have achieved the end result after graduation if I was limited to only a single co-op term.

The way I see it, UW's co-op system takes your first few years of ladder climbing and compresses that into, well, almost no time at all. I've been able to bypass a great deal of the drudge work right off the bat simply by having good names and solid reviews on my record.

nano812• 15 years ago

What does an 18 month co-op give you that graduating earlier and starting work doesn't?

The thing I liked about 4-8 month co-ops at UW was that I didn't necessarily know what I wanted to end up doing. This way I got to try working in a whole bunch of situations to find what I ultimately enjoyed most. I did co-ops in southern California, Silicon Valley, NYC, and around Canada. I worked for startups, big companies, and even the government. I hopped around in different industries too: semiconductors, fuel cell research, mobile devices and internet. Ultimately by the time I graduated I had tested the waters of industry in a variety of ways, gained a ton of life experiences, gotten really good at having a big impact at work in a short period of time, and had an offer to return full time to my last (and favourite) co-op employer.

AlexBlom2• 15 years ago

Another issue with the 18 month coop is that, at least from the UW students I speak to, most go with startups. All of the UW students I personally speak to are receptive of doing a coop with a startup.

It is significantly harder for startups to commit to 18 months of anything. Having any form of structured work environment, guaranteed capital, or even if they will still be around.

On the flipside, I find less of the UT students are willing to coop with a startup vs. a larger firm.

(This is just my experience, so chalk it up how you like. Clearly, it may not be indicative of the students as a whole).

_napw• 15 years ago

Before graduating from Waterloo, I had the opportunity to work in three different countries (Canada, USA, Japan), on everything from web services to embedded C. While I was a good student, and I doubt that I would have had any trouble finding a job with or without co-op, getting the breadth of experience was incredibly valuable - this would be something much harder to get after graduating.

I generally dislike competition of school brands (ie. Waterloo vs. Toronto), because I am fairly certain that education is 95% work ethic. The co-op program I firmly believe is exceptional, however.

reso4• 15 years ago

My error, I believe this was true at one point, however. We do account for the majority, however. Fraser's post below me gives a near comprehensive list.

gdilla• 15 years ago

Waterloo grad here - The 4-month co-op is the rule, but that doesn't mean the school isn't flexible. There were placements in Japan that required 8 month co-op terms (you just switch "streams" when you get back to school and can still graduate on time). I did a 12 month co-op in Japan and they had no problem with it. Great experience.

unavoidable• 15 years ago

I don't know where you're getting this 18-month number from. The maximum co-op term on PEY is 16-months, and a large number of people have opted for 12-month terms. They have also accepted terms as low as 8 months in some circumstances (lay-offs, overseas, other employment, etc.)

bryanlarsen2• 15 years ago

"I've always experienced the vast majority of learning during the 4-12 month range of my employment periods."

I've had 4 4 month co-op terms and 1 12 month co-op term as well as 5 full time jobs since graduation. In every single case I learned more in the first 4 months than I did subsequently.

rll2• 15 years ago

I went to Waterloo as well and absolutely loved the 4-month co-op terms and would have hated being limited to a single 18-month term with a single company. You get to try a little bit of everything. I did big companies (BNR, NT in Toronto), a smaller Toronto startup and mid-size (Novatel in Calgary) and after freezing my a in Alberta for a winter term went to southern Brazil for my next two terms.

randlet• 15 years ago

Totally agree with this. By the time I'd graduated I'd spent 4 months at a large communications company, 4 months tutoring college-level math, 4 months coding in an astronomy/astrophysics lab and 4 months writing medical physics code at a privately funded research institute.

Getting to experience 4 different work environments/subjects (in 4 different cities) was much more valuable to me in the long run than it would have been sticking at one place for 16-18 months. Those varied experiences also look great on a job/grad school application.

Many of the programs do (did?) allow you to go for an 8month co-op as well.

nano812• 15 years ago

If you are interested in hiring Waterloo co-ops at your company, they intern in four month intervals year round: http://hire.uwaterloo.ca/

fraserharris3• 15 years ago

Here is a good guide for hiring UW co-ops: http://barbaramacdonald.ca/post/11153941771/how-to-hire-the-...

Written by my cofounder

mdkess4• 15 years ago

The tragic thing is that software companies in Waterloo don't pay that well. Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Facebook, etc. are offering new college grads around $100k salary, while companies such as RIM and OpenText in the Waterloo region pay maybe $60k, so all of the talent in the region leaves. Having gone through Waterloo's co-op program, I found that Canadian software companies tend to be very management heavy, which is not what an ambitious college graduate is looking to get into. There is a lot of potential, but there are some big cultural problems that I think need to be fixed.

shazow7• 15 years ago

The salary is scaled to the cost of living. Even Google doesn't pay the same if you're working in Mountain View or Waterloo or Australia.

$100k base salary in Waterloo adjusted for cost of living would be like an $180k base salary in Mountain View. (Disclaimer: From personal experience, don't have a citation on the exact ratio.)

I suspect people leave to Silicon Valley for the opportunities, tech culture, and weather far more than the salaries.

potatolicious7• 15 years ago

Your point is valid in theory, but having spent the last 3 years in the US and keeping in a keen eye on the market continent-wide, it just doesn't bear out in reality.

I started off after graduation in Seattle, where the living costs are downright identical to what you would find in Vancouver or Toronto - except I was making $100K+ total comp. Compare this with the $50-55K offers I was getting from Canadian companies, and it was a complete no-brainer.

The gap has only widened - I'm now in SF making over double what my going rate in Canada would be. The cost of living is higher (well, mostly just the rent, everything else is similar), but it doesn't even come close to canceling out the raw pay difference.

But sometimes the pay is a red herring - I know a lot of Canadian expats in the USA who would love to go home, and many are willing to take substantial pay cuts in exchange for Canadian QOL, including myself. In fact, some of us have actually investigated this option thoroughly, and the ugly truth is:

There just aren't that many interesting, challenging jobs for programmers in Canada. It's a country full of code sweatshops and satellite-office monkey labs. Interesting, fulfilling, high-impact jobs are few and far between, and incredibly hotly contested where you do see them. Compare with being in SF, where someone practically begs me to go work on their interesting, world-changing problem every week. So in order for me to go back to Canada, I'd not only have to take a >50% pay cut, but also resign myself to ye olde cubicle and TPS reports. Entirely unacceptable.

jbarham2• 15 years ago

> $100k base salary in Waterloo adjusted for cost of living would be like an $180k base salary in Mountain View.

Um, no. Even though SV is a high-cost location in a (relative to the U.S.) high-tax state, personal income taxes are still substantially higher in Canada. Housing might be somewhat more in Waterloo than in SV, but the net take home at the end of the year would still be higher.

Assuming you're married and can file a joint tax return w/ your spouse, the U.S. tax advantage goes up even more.

There is no question that if you want to make a lot of money in tech, the U.S. is still the place to be. I say this as someone who has lived and worked in Canada, Southern Californian and now Australia.

canuc• 15 years ago

I'm a recent UW grad and though I think there is huge value in the co-op program I think the main driver is the University's tech-driven culture. Just go to Davis Center (Waterloo's tech library) for an hour and it will be hard not to get swept up in a discussion about new technologies, innovative new applications and interesting points of view. Even the humanities curriculum has a tech twinge; I graduated with a BA in Economics being able to code concisely, and use an arsenal of open source tools to solve problems the are discounted as being "too mathy/techy" by other economics programs.

You are going to see a whole lot more creativity coming out of Cambridge as well. The architecture program has created some of the most talented designers in the world and the admin are doing some great new things to have students apply those skills to UX.

Intropy• 15 years ago

I'm a recent alumnus of the UW Architecture program. I know the faculty there are pushing hard to incorporate emerging technologies into the core undergrad curriculum and many of the graduate students there are doing really interesting work in computational design and UX.

Additionally I can't say enough good things about the co-op program. While I was there every single one of my classmates got a placement every term at a firm within our industry. The economy was better then, but most of us had our pick when choosing what city we wanted to work in abroad. And this is on top of the compulsory term at the school's Rome studio in 4th year.

Some of my classmates have gone on this year to create non-tech start-ups of their own, such as Our Paper Life (http://ourpaperlife.com/) here in Toronto and Factory Five (http://www.wearefactoryfive.com/) in Shanghai.

I wouldn't trade the education and the diversity of my experience there for anything.

wavephorm3• 15 years ago

But there's no venture capital in Canada so it's nearly impossible to build a large tech company. Most successful Canadian startups sell out early because they know they'll hit major roadblocks. No capital plus a monopolistic telecom industry backed by government makes for a particularly hostile environment for small companies. Example: Kik got sued by Research in Motion IMMEDIATELY after receiving venture funding. The Canadian government actually encourages this type of anti-competitive behavior and does literally nothing to support any kind of small-business tech innovation. Any "technology innovation" tax incentives are geared toward saving oil companies billions of dollars per year, and do absolutely nothing to help small businesses.

Canada is an absolutely horrible place to do a technology startup, I do not recommend it, this article does not change this fact.

karamdeep4• 15 years ago

What a ridiculous statement. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of challenges that entrepreneurs encounter when starting or scaling a business here, but it's time to stop using the crutch of VC/Government/Telecom interference to support the assertion that Canada is "an absolutely horrible place to do a technology start up. The bottom line is that if you still think this is the case, you haven't been paying attention to what's been happening over the past few years in this country. Do the names Fixmo, Shopify, Achievers, Accedian Networks or BeyondTheRack ring a bell? How about HootSuite or FreshBooks? A Thinking Ape, Vidyard, Allerta, Upverter, Enflick, GoInstant, Wave Accounting, Well.ca, Chango...the list goes on and on - all world class companies run by entrepreneurs who spend their time executing, not complaining. Radian6 and Q1Labs sold for almost $1B combined - is that large enough for you??? Last time I checked none of those companies were being sued by RIM, being squeezed out of SR&ED credits by oil companies or being held in check by Rogers/Bell/Telus. We (iNovia Capital) have even funded some of them, and are proud to stand behind them and every other entrepreneur in Canada who are working their asses off to prove you wrong.

wavephorm3• 15 years ago

I am speaking from my personal experience. None of the Canadian investment firms, or incubator even replied to my emails, let alone give any reasonable valuation. The Canadian YC-copycat incubators seem more like vultures that scoop 25% equity for $50K in seed funding which is pretty ridiculous compared to what you can can get in the US. I was denied SR&ED and am currently in the process of receiving venture capital and moving my startup, and all the technology I've developed, to California far away from this abysmal environment.

wwhchung8• 15 years ago

Hi there. While I agree with some of your points, i.e. issues with certain large companies being anti-competitive in the startup environment rather than being supportive, and the fact that the tax incentives offered could be better structured to be more accessible to technology startups, I still think Canada is a great place to build a company. Why? Well:

1. Canada does have great tech talent. Finding them is a bit more difficult, but talent retention is much better. And if you reward your employees well (i.e. competitively with any other company out there), you can attract world class talent.

2. Building a great company does not necessarily mean raising a huge VC round. In fact, if you can build a business that is growing quickly without the need for VC, they'll come looking for you. One thing that some people get hung up on is that you absolutely need to get funded to start a company. That's not true at all. Although, when the time does come to raise money, most US investors are actually comfortable with investing in Canadian companies.

There are a few things I do notice though. Canadian culture is a bit more conservative (i.e. less willing to take big risks, which also explains a bit of the lower valuation). It makes a bit of sense, since most of the larger industries are around 'traditional' sectors, like natural resources and finance. But this is changing. And as more and more successful tech companies emerge, the startup community will only get stronger.

Also, the tax incentives are well intentioned, however the way they're structure has been a 'one size fits all' approach. The rules put in place make sense for some industries (e.g. medical R&D), but make it a bit inaccessible to tech startups without a lot of effort.

potatolicious7• 15 years ago

> "Finding them is a bit more difficult, but talent retention is much better."

As an employee this seems alarming to me. My impression of the Canadian tech scene is that you've got a small number of innovative companies with great work environments amidst a sea of sweatshops and incredibly mind-numbing code outfits. When your alternative is that, of course retention is better.

For an employee it means you've essentially got them over a barrel. Don't rock the boat, don't ask for too much, because it's this way or work at some soul-sucking enterprise shop on Bay St.

I'm not sure I can ever return to an environment like that, where my employer holds all of the cards and I hold practically none.

wwhchung8• 15 years ago

As a former Waterloo co-op (and founder of a YC company), I'd have to say that the 4 month co-op program added a LOT of value. I learned more in each of those 4 month co-op terms than each of my school terms. Additionally, from all my interviewing experience (i.e. interviewing for full time hire's), those that come from a co-op program (any co-op program, even UofT's) are way better prepared and have much more practical knowledge.

This is a core reason why we still recruit heavily in Waterloo, for both co-op's and full-times. In fact, we're going to be in Waterloo on January 19th, 2012 for a tech talk with YC and a number of other YC companies. Please feel free to drop by if you're in town.

sabraham2• 15 years ago

have a link for the event?

wwhchung8• 15 years ago

Yup: http://www.athinkingape.com/events/

Hope to see some of you there.

rll2• 15 years ago

One thing nobody has mentioned is also that most Waterloo students come out of there with more money than they had going in. No crippling student loans to deal with. Co-op terms aren't just great experience they also pay quite well.

(Unless things have changed, I graduated in 1993 and this was the case back then)

imack• 15 years ago

Tuition was de-regulated in the 90's and went up 15% a year through most of the 2000's. I'd say it's doable but not a given.

nekojima• 15 years ago

I graduated in the mid-90s from UW and I can say from my classmates and friends from a variety of faculties most had $20k+ loans to repay (though that first year after a lot was forgiven by the govt program).

At that time, in the mid-90s, the majority of students weren't in co-op at UW. Even those in Math, CS, Eng, Sci and Actg who did get co-ops usually it was at breakeven or a slight net positive for the experience, given the extra expenses of travel to Ottawa, Toronto or other cities with accommodation, plus 4-month rentals in KW were more expensive than 8-month.

potatolicious7• 15 years ago

UW engineering tuition is through the roof now. It's so bad now that I'm not sure what I would've done had I had the unfortunate luck of being born 3-4 years later. Breaking even with co-op is out of the question for a lot of students, though it still helps a lot.

After all, without co-op, for most UW engineering programs you're now looking at $40-45K tuition + living costs + supplies/books... A $80-90K loan is not at all out of the question.

ekosz• 15 years ago

Is that per year or for the whole degree? I was living in Waterloo and the students I talked to were paying $5-$15k a semester. To put that in perspective for an American, at RIT I was paying $40k a year + all of those living expenses.

The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

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