Brazil seizes iPhones from stores due to free charger requirement

https://9to5mac.com/2022/11/24/brazil-seizes-iphones-retail-stores-charger-requirement/

by isaacfrond • 4 years ago

79 125 4 years ago

Seems pretty arbitrary to me, iPhone charges directly from any standard USB power outlet. So why not shut down hotels and seize homes that have only old fashioned 120v blade plugs or whatever? Most hotels I stay in worldwide have USB plugs and so does my friend's home in Texas

But don't tell this to a geriatric politician who can't understand the concept that God didn't create the original style power outlets (thus making them the forever standard) on the 2nd day of Genesis

shultays2• 4 years ago

Because usb outlets are not the requirement. If it was, a fair comparison would be Brazil asking it as a requirement from new hotels/houses and if they don't comply then fine them , and if they still don't the seize them

Not everyone in the world lives in the hotels you stayed or in your friend's house at Texas. Until then we need chargers for using an iphone with our old fashioned power outlets I am afraid.

bicijay• 4 years ago

Dude, the concept of a new phone coming with a charger is not that dictadorial. Your analogy with the outlets does not make much sense in this context whatsoever.

pfortuny2• 4 years ago

Especially if the connector is not compatible with any other brand’s.

Dalewyn• 4 years ago

So why not shut down hotels and seize homes that have only old fashioned 120v blade plugs or whatever? Most hotels I stay in worldwide have USB plugs and so does my friend's home in Texas

This is going on a tangent, but I'm curious: Am I the only one that avoids those sockets like the god damn plague? It's a USB socket of unknown origin/destination, those things are theoretically capable of data transmission. I'm not going to plug stuff like my phone in them, that's like sticking your wazoo in any and every crevice you come across.

shultays2• 4 years ago

Also doesn't usb constantly being updated for higher and higher charging capabilities like every other year? Those power outlets sound pretty useless now if they only support slow charging. Even if you put one today at your home with highest powering capacity, it will probably be obselete in 5 years

ilyt• 4 years ago

You can just buy power-only cable for that, it just has data lines snipped. Probably won't negotiate max power tho.

I'd personally be more worried that they put cheapest possible one and it will fall apart putting 120/240 on the USB... apparently the wall mounted ones also die pretty quickly because of heat issues

refurb• 4 years ago

I do the same. I'm not worried about data over the cable, but more how reliable the power supply is or even the plug. Who knows if some idiot jammed a piece of metal in it? Or if it's some cheap power source that will either fry the phone or not charge very fast.

I'll use it if no other option, but otherwise I'll take a pass.

scarface748• 4 years ago

I agree with you. But you have to explicitly give permission for the iPhone to accept data when it’s plugged in.

philippejara4• 4 years ago

Seems pretty arbitrary to me, iPhone charges directly from any standard USB power outlet.

Quite often when you use those the phone will complain and tell you to use only the official chargers, and their warranty doesn't cover damage caused by third party chargers either. Once that's in play the argument that it can charge from any standard USB outlet becomes very shaky.

Brazil has a huge amount of problems with politicians and most of them are not due to a lack of understanding but straight up corruption, this is not one of them.

ricardobeat• 4 years ago

iPhones come with a lightning-to-USB-C cable, not USB-A which most chargers and outlets still are. They only sold USB-C chargers very briefly before removing them from the box, so even if you already had an iPhone, there is a 90% chance you’ll need to buy a new charger.

quitit• 4 years ago

Probably worth noting beyond the headline: Apple has judicial permission in Brazil to continue selling the iPhone without a charger, this is until the dispute is resolved one way or another. So for the time being they’re not actually in breach.

BulgarianIdiot• 4 years ago

So why are they seizing iPhones?

djbebs• 4 years ago

Bureaucrats going on a power trip thats about to get struck down by the courts.

subw00f2• 4 years ago

What judicial permission are you referring to? Earlier this year, they were about to get their sales suspended by the ministry of justice, plus a 2.2 mi dollar fine. The court decided to postpone suspension and fine until they determine if Apple is trying to circumvent the restrictions[1]. They should comply with the law of the land if they want to continue operating in Brazil.

[1] https://g1.globo.com/tecnologia/noticia/2022/09/06/ministeri...

kramerger• 4 years ago

Correction:

Not because of free charger, but due to not using a standard charger (USB C) while not including their own non-standard charger.

neallindsay2• 4 years ago

Wait, when we're talking about the "charger" here, do we mean the box that converts AC to DC? Or are we talking about the cable that plugs into the phone?

If we're talking about the cable, Apple does and always has included that in the box.

If we're talking about the wall plug thing that converts AC to DC, Apple no longer gives you one of those in the box, but it has always been standard USB. (USB A for the longest time, but USB C in recent years.)

speeder4• 4 years ago

Both.

Most other companies here offer the charging box that is USB-A. While the phone end is USB-C.

So when you buy an iPhone, you get a lightining-USBC cable, while you have a USB-A brick... thus you can't use the iPhone.

In an older thread I gave a more detailed explanation on how this situation happened. But long story short: phones in Brazil are ridiculously expensive, so are chargers, people don't change them often and someone buying an iPhone often is someone that was using a very old phone, sometimes a dumbphone even. And when they don't find a charger in the box, they go to black market to buy some crappy chinese ones that can set themselves on fire.

BoppreH• 4 years ago

Do you have a source for that? All the Brazilian articles that I could find, even the official government publication[1], only mention carregador ("charger", the thing that plugs into the wall), and "missing components necessary to use the product". There's no mention of USB-C or cable incompatibility anywhere.

As to why only Apple (and not, say, most wireless earbuds), I'd guess that it's because of their visibility and obscene prices in Brasil. Due to its weak currency and self-imposed import taxes, Brazilians pay over 6 months of minimum wage for the lowest spec iPhone 14.

[1] https://in.gov.br/web/dou/-/despacho-n-2.968/2022-438272613

speeder4• 4 years ago

The judge wrote that in his most recent decision that was discussed here on HN. I would appreciate if someone found the link for the most recent discussion before this one where this was pointed out.

marcosdumay5• 4 years ago

AFAIK, only Apple does that. Most wireless earbuds come with cables that plug into the USB power supplies that people actually have.

gcoguiec• 4 years ago

iPhones are crazy expensive in Brazil [0], but a 15% import tariff doesn’t explain why Brazilians have to pay twice the price.

[0] https://www.nukeni.com/en/apple/iphone/iphone14-pro-max

RicardoLuis0• 4 years ago

just about any electronics here in brazil are ~2x the price, be it phones, computers, computer parts (CPUs, GPUs, MOBOs, etc), or anything else (not just apple, any brand)

cassianoleal6• 4 years ago

This is true. When the PS5 was launched, the prices in Brazil were (they still are but that's beside the point) ridiculously high.

Gamers complained, in an incredibly amateurish PR stnt Sony decided to launch a campaign justifying the high prices on taxes.

Obviously, people decided to calculate this. Even taking the PS5's RRP in the US or Europe (as opposed to cost) and applying Brazilian taxes on top, the final figures were still around 40% lower than what they were charging.

iagocds3• 4 years ago

Is not only the import tarrif, we also pay federal tax around 10% and state tax around 17% and those are couting the import tarrif and the cost of shipping for it's base. I also want to add here that 90% of salary workers in Brazil receive less than R$3500 as salary each month, before income tax, so for buying even an iPhone 14 you need to save almost 3x your montly wage.

alister2• 4 years ago

But 15% + 10% + 17% adds up to 42%. But Apple products are often 80-100% more expensive in Brazil compared to the USA and Canada What accounts for the rest of the difference?

constantcrying5• 4 years ago

Are there actually people who want to have a charger included? I have about half a dozen of them already, what would I even do with another?

As long as there is a USB-A to phone connector cable in there what would you want with another charger? If you really need one, buy one seperately.

fredoralive• 4 years ago

Mysteriously Apple choose to swap to a USB-C to Lightning as the pack in cable at the same time as they dropped a pack in charger. Strange timing that...

soco• 4 years ago

With every new generation the charging power drawn increased so yes I might have a bunch of old chargers as backup but none of them can charge as fast as the newest.

constantcrying5• 4 years ago

And phone companies include high quality chargers which allow their phones to charge as fast as possible?

If anything I do not want chargers I get with devices because manufacturers cheap out on them and inevitably they are not very good.

transcriptase• 4 years ago

Perhaps because there are people out there who don't have one already, and don't want to give apple $20 extra because they wanted to increase their profit margin.

constantcrying5• 4 years ago

There are dozens of companies producing chargers. If anything not getting a charger gives you greater freedom of choice, since you do not need to get an apple charger.

If you do not have a charger buy one. It is not like these things break every year or so.

scarface748• 4 years ago

Why would you think that Apple wouldn’t just charge an extra $20 when selling a phone in Brazil to include it?

xiphias22• 4 years ago

,,Are there actually people who want to have a charger included? I have about half a dozen of them already, what would I even do with another?''

You should check your priviledges before asking such a question.

For a huge amount of the people in the world with an iPhone, their iPhone worth more than all other assets they own together (Brazil is such a country).

constantcrying5• 4 years ago

Lets get this straight: If you are money sensitive you want to pay extra for apple to include a charger, instead of getting the cheapest one that reasonably works and saving a few dollars.

Thanks for the great advice.

scarface748• 4 years ago

Oh please. If you are that poor, the last thing you are buying is an iPhone in Brazil. Brazil is the most expensive place to buy a phone in the world.

https://9to5mac.com/2021/09/15/yet-again-brazil-has-the-most...

An iPhone is only being bought by the most affluent in those countries.

ChrisMarshallNY2• 4 years ago

half a dozen

Hold my beer.

I have at least 10, and I've thrown out, twice as many.

Actually, it's probably a lot more, but I can't be bothered to count. Most are cheap pieces of crap.

smoldesu3• 4 years ago

I'm not sure why you're being downvoted for this, Apple's plastic cables are some of the worst pieces of garbage you can own. If you live in a family with pets, those cheapass cables won't even make it 2 weeks without becoming dangerously frayed.

oefrha• 4 years ago

Make it $x90 for a phone without charger and $x99 for one with it and I’m good. Otherwise it’s nickel and dime bullshit dressed in “think of the environment”.

smoldesu3• 4 years ago

Yes, I go through Apple's first-party cables every few months. They're extremely flimsy and require constant replacement.

jaqalopes• 4 years ago

Mine all died or got lost, can I have some of yours since you clearly don’t need them?

mattw21212• 4 years ago

I just bought a light fixture a few days ago. No bulbs came with it. I also just bought a new pair of wireless earbuds, and no power brick came with it. In both cases, it would have been nice, and saved me the extra expense, but a government mandate to force manufacturers to include them?

ingenieros4• 4 years ago

That's because you assume that electronics cost the same everywhere outside the U.S but that is certainly not the case. In fact, Brazil is notorious for being protective of their own localindustry and as a result iPhones and other gadgets are more expensive there than anywhere else on earth. As a consumer the least I can expect for these crazy markups is to not have to spend additional money for a charger or a lightning cable. https://9to5mac.com/2021/09/15/yet-again-brazil-has-the-most...

nickpp2• 4 years ago

So the solution for protectionism-created problems is... more protectionism?

mattw21212• 4 years ago

No, I don't assume that. I assume that if the chargers are included that the base price of the item would be higher. If they included the chargers (or lightbulbs) the cost of item would be higher in Brazil. Is that what you want?

rodolphoarruda• 4 years ago

Brazil is notorious for being protective of their own localindustry and as a result iPhones and other gadgets are more expensive

I used to think that way, but I have been changing my mind over the past 5 years as I started to pay attention to some of Brazil's numbers. Its public structure is huge and expensive to keep in comparison to its overall productivity. That translates into more taxes and a natural overhead to any company willing to pay them in order to run a business legally. In the end of the day, the consumer is paying for all that.

lucasfcosta• 4 years ago

I'm honestly a bit disappointed Brazil is getting in Apple's way. Sure, I do agree with the overall intent of this initiative. Still, it's going to be counter-productive in the long-run by making Apple and resellers either leave the country or make their products more expensive to cover the cost of doing business here.

syliconadder• 4 years ago

But Apple skipped including a power brick under a greenwashing initiative which was really to skim more profits? It's a way to rein in Apple's greed from the looks of it.

philippejara4• 4 years ago

Apple has margin to spare, more than any other phone company I reckon, no way they'll leave a country as big a brazil over something like this. It shouldn't be a big ask to provide a charger when you sell a phone worth multiples of the minimum wage.

I do feel for the resellers that hold them in stock right now, not sure how these units will be treated.

subw00f2• 4 years ago

You're delusional if you think Apple will leave a massive market like that over some petty dispute. It's like people think they operate with razor-thin margins. Do you believe the price difference is only due to tariffs? Subtract them, then compare them again. You're in for a fun surprise. Add that to the fact that it's not only a hardware business but also software, with a good 15%-30% profit over sales through its app distribution scheme.

dakial13• 4 years ago

As you guys seem to be confused on this so let me explain the rationale.

Brazil has a consumer law, that defines what companies can/can't do when selling to consumers. It has like, warranty minimums for durable goods (90 days), "no questions asked" return right for virtual purchases (7 days), etc... among those there is a very special one called "Venda Casada", which translates to tie-in/combined sale.

The "venda casada" article forbids the condition of an purchase to the necessity of purchasing another item (from whoever is selling it). For the Apple case, the judge understands that by removing the charger (and therefore selling as a separate product), Apple is forcing the consumer to purchase 2 items when acquiring an iPhone, as the charger is a must have item for a smartphone, and to make things worse, Apple has a proprietary charger so new customers and those migrating from other platforms (like android) will need to buy the charger.

The rationale is pretty similar to a TV brand selling a TV without the charging cable, since everyone has a TV, so they surely must already have a charging cable.

This is a law, it is not Brazil government/judiciary with some vendetta against Apple. Many companies have had decisions against them because of this.

I hope this helps make things clearer. Cheers!

mbalyuzi• 4 years ago

Just wait 'till they discover that Apple Watches need an iPhone to work...

jonhohle• 4 years ago

Apple does not have a proprietary charger. It has a proprietary cable, which comes with the device. That cable plugs into a standard USB charger or port, even one’s that came with android phones.

twawaaay6• 4 years ago

Apple says:

"When using electronic accessories with your iPhone, ensure that they are either genuine Apple products or that they have been certified as Made for iPhone under the MFi program. Certified items come with the "Made for iPhone" logo on them and/or on their packaging.

(...)

Using uncertified or counterfeit accessories may damage your iPhone and/or adversely affect operation. Apple's warranty does not cover damage caused by use with a third party product that does not meet Apple's specifications."

So you have to buy Apple charger to be able to use iPhone "correctly" and to preserve warrant.

ajdude• 4 years ago

I just bought an iPhone yesterday, and the charger no longer comes with a standard USB A port. It comes with a lightning-to-usbC cable, which it suggests I plug into my MacBook to charge. I do not have a USB-C outlet, so I either need to get a USB A to USB C adapter or a USB-C charger port if I want to plug my phone into the wall.

cassianoleal6• 4 years ago

to make things worse, Apple has a proprietary charger

This is incorrect. Lightning is only used on the phone's end of the cable. The other end, which connects to the actual charger, is USB-C. This cable is included with the phone.

What the judges are saying is that they not only need to include the cable, but also the actual charger, which in this case is in fact USB-C.

twawaaay6• 4 years ago

Apple requires that you use Apple-made or Apple-certified charger and reserves the right to void warranty if you do not.

twawaaay6• 4 years ago

I would add different countries set their protection laws largely independently, meaning the specific protections will be different.

US/EU are large enough so that our protection laws kinda become a possible standard for other countries and so we kinda got used to it actually being a standard.

Brazil has every right to set their own protection laws and in this case it absolutely does not seem to me it is in any way unreasonable.

At least not more unreasonable than US letting customers try stuff out and send it back for free which obviously is abused by large part of population and causes situations where people receive products that look suspiciously like they have already been opened and possibly even used by somebody previously.

marcosdumay5• 4 years ago

Actually, this is copied almost verbatim from some EU countries. It's just that the EU market is different enough that the same law has different effects.

crazygringo3• 4 years ago

So does this apply to AirPods as well? Because those aren't sold with a charger either, never have been.

My Apple Watch didn't either -- it comes with a charging puck that attached to a cable, but it doesn't come with a charger. Neither did my Magic Trackpad. Or Magic Keyboard.

Not including a charger is becoming more and more standard. I'm curious if Brazil is applying this law equally to all products that charge over USB, or if it's just selectively targeting flagship devices like iPhones?

marcosdumay5• 4 years ago

The law applies to every product. There is a decision to make over the charging medium details, but the one against iPhones apply to anything that charges over USB-C.

For other USB substandards, other rules may apply. The rules for USB-C also may change as the market matures.

dakial13• 4 years ago

It applies. but I'm not sure if anyone is suing Apple over those or just the iPhones. Samsung was also fined earlier this year for the same reason.

But keep in mind that this is not "Brazil" targeting, someone needs to sue Apple in the court for this (the judge ruling and fine) to be applied. In this case it was a consumer association, that is getting some 10MM BRL (2MM USD) out of this (so this is probably the association interest, not consumer fairness), but it is in Apple best interest to respect the law and avoid professional litigators to go after them.

vitorgrs• 4 years ago

First people need to sue Apple for this. I guess no one is suing Apple over airpods.

Worth to remind that before going to court, there's consumer protection 'agency', known as PROCON, to resolve consumer issues before going to court.

This happened with Samsung. Samsung resolve the issue before going to court. They give a free charger if you ask for.

jt2190• 4 years ago

“Venda Casasa” (Portuguese) https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venda_casada

FoomFries• 4 years ago

So you can’t sell a physical console game without the console? This seems to follow similar logic.

kevincox• 4 years ago

Also where does it end. Do they also need to provide you the wall outlet? And the wires to wire that outlet to your electrical panel?

It does seem that if it works with a standard USB or USB-C charger they should be fine not to include it to provide the consumer choice of what charger they want to use, be it Apple, third-party or an existing one that they had lying around.

nzach• 4 years ago

Not really. A game is content for your console, not a feature.

A better analogy would be selling a pre-assembled PC without an operating system. And this is illegal in Brazil, although this law isn't strictly enforced.

dakial13• 4 years ago

The judge ruling is kind of a stretch of that law. Because it was first conceived to avoid forcing consumers to buy 2 items together (if you don't buy X I can't sell you Y), or putting quantity limitations (you can only buy 4 or more of X, otherwise I won't sell to you). Of course you can do promo combos (3 for the price of 2) but that shouldn't be the only option, the consumer needs to be able to buy the standalone product.

throwaway290• 4 years ago

Great, let's make sure every new iPhone comes with a charger, not as if we need to care about adding waste to our environment. What else to expect from a government that greenlights Amazon deforestation...

swfsql• 4 years ago

The politicians who made those laws have no idea what they were doing. This only serves for those crooks to bribe companies.

Eventually we will get to a million laws and therefore a million different ways that they can bribe, and a million hours any company need to waste to do anything in this country.

This only adds uncertainty and forces chaos into everything. Let alone the arrogance of the government (or bystanders) to get in between what a private company and individuals consumers do.

The government treats the oh so poor consumers like stupid animals who cannot buy a freaking charger separately.

In the end this simply increases the costs for the consumers themselves.

_nalply• 4 years ago

I wonder why Apple didn't give out a coupon for an optional charger that could be sent in for a cash-back. Maybe because that would enrage the Brazilian Ministery of Justice?

Brazil seizes iPhones from stores due to free charger requirement

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