H-1B visa holders scramble for jobs after 2022 tech layoffs

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-21/2022-tech-layoffs-leave-h-1b-visa-holders-in-limbo

by lxm • 4 years ago

82 130 4 years ago

bloomberg.com

forrestblount• 4 years ago

Hoping this is helpful for some of the folks affected: https://www.bridge.legal/resources/free-legal-services-for-l...

mechanical_bear• 4 years ago

Are you trying to suppress wages for citizen tech workers? This is how you suppress wages for citizen tech workers.

quacked4• 4 years ago

It's no use. I agree with you, but most of the people who want to help H-1Bs see it as reductive and archaic to try and promote the welfare of your own citizens over that of foreigners.

alvarezbjm-hn• 4 years ago

This is a service to facilitate H1B sponsorship

"Lowering America Citizen Wages" is a problem with American Companies paying less to foreigners, not with foreigners being available for hire.

The comment is xenophobic

dahdum2• 4 years ago

It's a net gain for America to have more skilled tech workers. If that means slightly lower wages for everyone, so be it. Given the number of large tech companies founded by immigrants, I'm not certain wage suppression is a given anyway.

I feel the same way about doctors and other highly paid skilled professions, and immigration as a whole.

bergenty• 4 years ago

It’s a balance between siphoning brain away from the rest of the world and maintaining decent wages. Wages for developers are definitely not low, and that’s the truth.

SideQuark5• 4 years ago

Conversely, if the sector grows, it may well be that all workers in it make more. This has been the trend in many, many high tech scenarios.

Or, we can let the skilled workers end up elsewhere, those places develop the next innovations, and soon the high paying jobs are not here, but have moved to those places willing to invest in talent.

The main reason the US has such high salaries is not that we stopped skilled workers coming here - around 50% of Fortune 500 companies were started here by imiigrants.

I, as a US citizen, want the world's best and brightest to come here, so I can learn, have to compete, and become part of improving tech sectors, not backwater xenophobic countries banning workers.

It's historically extremely shortsighted to think that having to compete solely makes wages lower. If that were true, we'd all have lower wages than our ancestors, which is demonstrably untrue.

UncleMeat2• 4 years ago

Software engineers create jobs for software engineers. The reason why you can make 4x more money in SF than in London is because the entire world flocks to SF to work in software. Those H1B workers are making you money, not costing you money.

walterbell• 4 years ago

There are legal versions of that approach.

bsimpson3• 4 years ago

I've long been embarrassed that US immigration law so often errs on the side of xenophobia and cruelty.

That said, I don't understand education+early career visas. "Come get an education at one of our universities, and then take your utility elsewhere!" If we're gonna train people, we should have onramps to employment so our economy can benefit too.

988747• 4 years ago

I've long been embarrassed that US immigration law so often errs on the side of xenophobia and cruelty.

That's the effect of being the single most desirable target for immigrants. If US immigration laws were any more lenient, it would be the most populous country on Earth already, way ahead of India and China.

llampx• 4 years ago

Foreigners pay tons of money for the privilege of being at an American university, even state schools. Its really no comparison to in-state tuition. Its very good business for the universities. After that, the best find a way to remain in the country anyway, the rest are sent back through the ruthless H1B program.

htkibar• 4 years ago

It brings money, and spreads influence. Solves a different type of problem.

BitwiseFool• 4 years ago

"I've long been embarrassed that US immigration law so often errs on the side of xenophobia and cruelty."

The United States has some of the most generous and charitable immigration policies of all countries on Earth. The problem is that the sheer number of people trying to immigrate means that it appears cruel for turning so many people down. Particularly when people don't look into just how restrictive other developed nations are with their own policies.

blindriver• 4 years ago

You literally have no idea about the immigration policies in other countries. Some countries won't let you become citizens unless it's by blood no matter how long you've lived there (Japan). Many countries will force you to give up your citizenship if you want to get a new citizenship. The US and Canada have the most lenient and generous citizenship policies in the world.

I personally think we should only confer citizenship on people who are in the country legally. There's too many tourist vacationers that come here to give birth to their child, incur hospital fees that they won't pay, and then fly back home. The fact it takes so long for actual good immigrants is terrible policy. My close friend from India who was making over $1 million per year at FAANG has been waiting over a decade for his Green Card. The system is a mess. He is also a proponent of very strong immigration rules because he sees how the rules are being bent and it's utterly unfair for those who follow the rules.

mistrial9• 4 years ago

xenophobia and cruelty

this blames the reader of the comment indirectly, and calls to gather and act now to remedy these obvious and ugly moral traits

yet, most readers (like me) have had nothing to do with setting the rules for this system, nor implementing them. In addition, it is large companies that routinely exercise the actual restrictions.. and yes I have seen it directly.

Overall, this comment to flay and riddle the reader with guilt over this issue, is corrosive to unity.. and comes off as whiny and naive

ROTMetro3• 4 years ago

The limit laws were put in place for the opposite reason of xenophobia and cruelty. It was to give immigrants from ALL countries a chance, and to provide a diverse group of new Americans. There is not going to ever be unlimited immigration, so knowing that, it is only fair to divide green cards among countries. Xenophobia would be if the USA only gave visas to Western Europeans and Australia/Canada. I remember in the 80s it was pretty common to find 'undocumented' Canadians and Irish. Your argument wouldn't stand up then as xenophobic USA not wanting those foreign Canadians and Irish, and it doesn't hold up now. The USA is has some of the largest legal immigration rates in the world.

kodyo4• 4 years ago

Universities like the cheap foreign research labor. Foreign students depress wages for American ones. Americans opt out and choose a different career.

Corruption all the way down, friends.

jimbob45• 4 years ago

400,000 current H-1B visa holders[0] divided by 999 at-risk holders (article describes "hundreds") leaves us with less than 0.25% of the visa-holding population at risk. It's very possible that I'm heavily overstating that percentage. How is this even news?

[0]https://www.stilt.com/blog/2019/04/h1b-visa-holders-in-usa/

lucasmullens• 4 years ago

332,000,000 people in the US divided by 999 at-risk holders leaves us with less than 0.0003% of the population at risk.

I don't think percentages are useful here. Hundreds of human beings suffering is something I will always empathize with.

snambi• 4 years ago

As a citizen, if I get laid off, I get a severance package and support from the state. It is ok if I get laid off. Temporary inconvenience, but family doesn't need to suffer. It is not the case for H1B visa holders.

If H1B visa holder gets laid off, they need to find a job in 60 days. That is a lot of stress. Suppose they find a in different state, they need to move. This is stress for the family and children as well. In the worst case, they may need to leave the country. It is harder, because they need to sell all their properties, move the stuff and relocate the family in an extremely short period of time. I think the H1B rules are draconian.

IMHO, H1B must be reformed or abolished. In the current form, it only benefits big companies to hire great talent for cheap and keep under their control. Similar to bonded labour.

bombcar4• 4 years ago

How EXACTLY does it work for someone laid off from Twitter, for example? Does the 60 day clock begin the moment they were "laid off" or the moment severance runs out? Does it matter if the company puts them on garden leave instead of immediate lay-off?

theGnuMe4• 4 years ago

You know, maybe there's a way.. concurrent h1b. Maybe all the h1bs "unionize" in the sense that they get to work part time for another h1b sponsor (the h1b union). Call this the H1B union corp. That way if they lose their official job, the h1b union they can stay beyond the 60 days to look for work.

I dunno, this would need an immigration lawyer to weigh in on. There's a YC one who appears from time to time.. This could be something YC does which would make startups more attractive to h1bs.

paganel• 4 years ago

I personally didn't check the numbers, but even if the percentage is "only" 0.25% it gives a strong message to the rest of 99.75% that they should take care and especially that they should not make any fuss at their current job, otherwise they might risk losing almost everything they have built in the US. Not that the great majority of those 99.75% don't already know it.

Related to this, it is high time for this indentured servitude-like legislation to be scrapped for good, but as long as the people affected earn relatively good money I guess we won't see a real move against it anytime soon.

shmatt• 4 years ago

Part of the H-1B process is to prove you (hiring company) can't find and equal American citizen to come work for you.

During a downturn in the tech sector, while companies are boasting about "cutting the fat" in their workforce by the tens of thousands. I'd assume it's much easier to find a citizen than it was a few years ago

The companies admitting they over hired by thousands, also includes them claiming they needed immigrants they do not really need.

This[1] article estimates 2,000 of the 23,000 tech workers laid off in November 2022 had H-1B visas. According to the U.S approach to immigration we should all be prioritizing the 21,000 non-visa holders before we try getting people more jobs so they can keep their visa

https://techcrunch.com/2022/11/11/answers-for-h-1b-workers-w...

mingfli• 4 years ago

Part of the H-1B process is to prove you (hiring company) can't find and equal American citizen to come work for you.

This is true for a company sponsored Green Card application, not H-1B visa.

dvaun• 4 years ago

It is true if the employer is considered H-1B dependent[0]. For employers with >51 employees if 15% or greater of the employees are H-1B workers then they must attempt to hire US workers first[1].

[0] https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/62o-h1b-recruit...

[1] https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/62c-h1b-depende...

tablespoon• 4 years ago

> Part of the H-1B process is to prove you (hiring company) can't find and equal American citizen to come work for you.
This is true for a company sponsored Green Card application, not H-1B visa.

IIRC, that's typically gamed. It's been awhile, but I knew a couple of guys who went through that and I recall they postings "to find an American citizen" were written hyper-specifically in order avoid hiring anyone, and if anyone actually applied, I'd imagine the interview would have been tough with a predetermined outcome.

It's a crappy system. Tests like that should be at the start, not at the end. If they're at the end, it just wastes everyone's time and subverts the test: even if you think the company should hire more Americans, are you going to undermine your coworker in such a way that they may get deported? Is it fair to do that after someone's put down roots? (No.)

givemeethekeys• 4 years ago

It is easy to prove this - just create a requirement combination that is special to your target candidate:

- Software engineer

- Is able to effectively communicate in Italian and French.

- Has 3-5 years of cultural experience in Southern Italy.

- Culinary skills in contemporary Italian cuisine not required but nice to have.

tcmart14• 4 years ago

Addition: - Is willing to occasionally cook team lunch.

pandaman• 4 years ago

This worked until early 00s, now a language proficiency can only be required if it's necessary to perform the job. Necessary as for a translator or an editor, not "to communicate with our off-shore team".

jusob• 4 years ago

If you submit this job description, you would get an RFE (Request For Evidence) to explain why these skilled are requires for the job.

time_to_smile• 4 years ago

Sadly this is going to really change our tech community. I suspect many US citizens, especially at large US companies, have no idea how many colleagues', coworkers' and friends' ability to stay in the United State ultimately rests on their being a strong demand for tech talent.

Most of our discussions around the system impact of layoffs have been in regard to changes in TC long term, but I personally think that's minor compared to potentially saying goodbye to some friends for a long time.

The issue is not just this current scramble, but if the job market in tech does shrink and continue to do so we're going to see the number of places sponsoring H1B shrink tremendously. Estimates are hard to come by accurately, but the number of H1B holders in tech is fairly large, this could be a change that quite literally changes the face of tech in the US.

evbogue• 4 years ago

https://archive.ph/sqZoN

throwaway_9_7_54• 4 years ago

As a Former H-1B holder I'm really surprised how few people think about the intention of the program: A temporary worker program to bring highly skilled labor into the country (or allow them to stay longer) (temporarily) as demonstrated by the needs of a specific employer.

Let's not pretend there is some huge injustice here. This is a risk we must take into account as immigrants.

None of us have the automatic right to stay and work here, and that isn't the intention of the program. Immigration is not a right, it is a privilege.

22SAS11• 4 years ago

As a current H1B holder, I agree. I always say that visa workers may not realize it at first but the day they stand outside the consulate for their visa interview, they indirectly agree to whatever headaches come with being on an H1B (or any sort of work visa for that matter).

commandlinefan• 4 years ago

As a current H1B holder, I agree

It seems like the only people who do understand the program are the people who are directly participating in it.

miscaccount5• 4 years ago

though i agree with you overall, right now the system is totally not working for indians and to a some extend chinese.

The current wait time for indians is over 100 years whereas all other countries get their green card in a couple of years(after green card sponsorship).

This makes the system crushing the Indians who have roots for more than decades.

For people who would say , you should have seen it coming , recently the demand from other countries are too high that wait time for indians are in decades at minimum

throwaway_9_7_54• 4 years ago

I see your point. Yes for those born in countries with traditionally high immigration rates the system is broken. Even if an employer can demonstrate they need to retain a particular person if this employer later needs to terminate the employee for unrelated reasons you are screwed.

I think the H-1B to EB-2 and EB-1 process should be improved to not be subject to immigration rates.

22SAS11• 4 years ago

I am an Indian H1b holder. The system is not meant to be beneficial for a nationality or a group of nationalities. Indians very well know that the green card waiting times are super long, and yet they'll come here, give birth to kids, buy a house, etc. All on a temporary visa with a very, very long waiting period for their green card. Maybe don't try to set roots if you know that you will not get permanent residency?

UncleMeat2• 4 years ago

Even though it is a privilege, I think it is still important to treat people with kindness and respect. The way that the US treats people on h1bs, especially if they are from countries with extremely long waits for green cards, is heartless, in my opinion.

There are a lot of things that we don't have to do to help our fellow human but that we still should do.

22SAS11• 4 years ago

There is nothing heartless about it, if the system doesn't work for people born in one particular country. I say this as an Indian H1B holder.

If anything, the US has given me opportunities that I wouldn't get in India. I work on a front office team at an HFT. In India, for front office roles, most of the HFT's don't hire anyone not from the IIT's. My resume would be thrown straight in the bin, if I were still in India. A while back, FAANG offices in India would only prefer hiring from the top tier Indian schools.

asdadsdad3• 4 years ago

I think everyone is treated with respect. No country has to process permanent residency applications for everyone, and no country has to provide a visa for foreigners to work period. The system is overwhelmed and they get to make their policies. I've read something once that really struck me: if you have skills which you think are valuable, have gone through extensive education and training, and subject yourself to the whims of a random system to decide your future, you're not unlucky, you're just dumb.

airocker2• 4 years ago

The result is already showing up : https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/indias-brain...

throwaway2729• 4 years ago

There's a difference between temporary and sudden. Knowing you can stay only for 6 years is temporary. Finding out that you could theoretically be here for a long time but your life could be yanked away any minute is sudden and an uprooting that no one deserves.

asdadsdad3• 4 years ago

that assumption is really "theoretical" and personal. The visa conditions don't tell you can stay for an arbitrarily long time. As others have pointed out, H1B is explicitly temporary and does not in itself lead to a permanent residency path. The US is not like others countries, say UK, where staying for 10 years in some visas or 5 years in a work visa lead you to PR. What they've transformed the H1B in is sort of "unwarranted"

airocker2• 4 years ago

There are about 150 good computer schools in the US producing 400 employable graduates on average in the tech industry, total of 60000 engineers. 60000+ H1Bs come every year. H1B is a necessity because the need is too high. H1B is not replacing US workers.

H-1B visa holders scramble for jobs after 2022 tech layoffs

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