Ask HN: What are your thoughts on students replacing their notebooks with iPads?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33614005

by carlycue • 4 years ago

21 40 4 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I see a lot of college students in real life and on social media spend $1000-2000 to buy expensive iPads and accessories to replace the traditional boring but extremely cheap pen and paper.

The question is, does spending all this money lead to better grades? Or do students buy these devices for school because of group pressure and a desire to fit in?

smoldesu4• 4 years ago

In my last few years at high school, our district replaced a 1:1 laptop policy with a 1:1 iPad policy. The results were mixed. For my creative electives like photography it was pretty handy, but the lack of keyboard made it a slog to use in writing classes. Then there were the engineering classes... for my Javascript and CAD electives the iPads were entirely useless, and the most it did in math class was run the Desmos website.

IMO, people are too trigger-happy adding technology to schools. If any district wants to do a 1:1 iPad program, they should keep the iPads on-prem and use them as tools rather than stopgap replacements for books/paper. If schools want any chance of their students focusing on their work (especially in a K-12 environment) they should treat computing as a situational solution.

thehappypm• 4 years ago

Amazing that high schoolers are casually learning CAD and JavaScript!

smoldesu4• 4 years ago

My CAD class was awesome, run by an engineering dude in his 40s who's sole interest was spending as much district funding as possible. By the time I graduated, he had surrounded himself with a room of 20x Quadro/i7 machines and a half-dozen 3D printers. It makes me happy to imagine how much joy that brings him and his current students these days.

Unfortunately the computer science class is no longer running at the school I attended. Between the low demand for the class and the difficulty of teaching programming on an iPad, they decided to pull the plug and focus on providing other STEM classes. Truly a tragedy since I look back on that class so fondly, but I guess the next generation of software developers will need to be a bit more self-motivated.

seized• 4 years ago

I learned both in the late 90s. AutoCAD and think JavaScript, might have only been CSS. They were elective courses but still.

musicale3• 4 years ago

Javascript and CAD electives the iPads were entirely useless

In my experience the iPad is great for JavaScript, but you need a keyboard!

There are CAD apps for the iPad that are compatible with AutoCAD, Solidworks, etc.. Touch controls and Apple Pencil support seem like good features.

smoldesu4• 4 years ago

They're nice concessions, but the iPad is just not made to do these things like a desktop machine. It's not even worth running a CS class if your students are all learning how to operate iPads at maximum efficency.

lnwlebjel• 4 years ago

I have a kid in 8th grade. The school issued iPads and all work is done and submitted on them. Internet hotspots are issued to kids who have no internet at home. My opinion is that the are a slightly net-negative for learning, given the time she takes fiddling with the various apps to get them to do what she needs them to do. I suspect that they greatly simplify grading (and thus the teacher's job), and are thus here to stay.

Otherwise, I think it's an abomination. Using the same device for learning, entertainment, social media and other distractions just seems like a really bad idea. Maybe I don't give the kids credit - but this is my working hypothesis. I'd be glad to be wrong.

ungawatkt• 4 years ago

A device with a keyboard was much much better for me than paper in college (netbook at the time, but same idea as a iPad), and would have also made high school better. I can type faster than I can write (including most math needed in engineering, pure math I never quite got there and still used paper); the notes were searchable, more legible, and sharable; and I could bring up class presentations closer to my face and annotate them directly, among other advantages.

Folks can do what works for them, including pen and paper, but there are definitely advantages to the more tech route beyond just "fitting in", and compared to the cost of even a single semester at some schools the iPad cost is easy to justify. Sure, I can just browse the internet instead of doing work, but I can also do that on my phone and doodle in a paper notebook if I'm set on not paying attention, and people have been able to daydream forever.

Edited for spelling and such

escapedmoose• 4 years ago

I used a Samsung tablet with a lightweight Bluetooth keyboard as my primary note-taking tool through college a decade ago. It worked great with Evernote at the time, allowing me to search for keywords and connections between topics, and to lighten the load I had to carry (which, as I was running between classes and two jobs from 7am-9pm each day, was critical for me). Maybe I didn’t need it, but it made my life much easier. This was during a time when carrying a tablet/laptop around labeled you a huge nerd.

These days I work from home and can keep everything in my desk, but I still use Apple Notes for learning things because it’s easy to switch between my phone, iPad and laptop to work on topics in whatever spare time I have, wherever I am. I get some good ideas in the line for grocery checkout haha

csdvrx2• 4 years ago

In university, I didn't use pen and paper: I took textual notes in Mathematica or Rstudio (depending on the class) and drew graphs on the screen, using the Wacom mode of my thinkpad. Sometimes I just used xournal. I type faster than I write, and I had direct shortcuts for all the greek letters for the formulas (α β γ etc)

Separately, I had a Sony MP3 record and a digital camera to take high res pictures of the graphs drawn (I could have used Onenote to synchronize but it seemed overkill)

That was extremely helpful: during the class, I could do some plots or run some experiments to clarify a concept and ask questions if something didn't make sense to me.

And right after the class, I would gather the different parts to make my own notes and interpretations of the material presented.

It was around 2017, and half the people were using similar setups. I mostly saw laptops, maybe because iPads with pens didn't exist yet. If they had, I would have certainly tried one!

_aavaa_• 4 years ago

Depends on the subject being studied. For anything with lots of words it's not useful and a simple laptop with a keyboard is worth it. Once you get into anything that's equation heavy having a tablet becomes well worth it.

All of the apps on iOS look more polished and are usually vector based, so file size ends up being smaller and much more zoomable. But I think that the android alternative (software wise at least) are superior. Specifically this app (unaffiliated): https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.acadoid.le...

Mikeb85• 4 years ago

Unless you're in a specific course the ability to jot notes with a pen is huge. Taking notes with a laptop during a lecture is a PITA.

csdvrx2• 4 years ago

Many laptops support pens either Wacom or EMR (Thinkpads, Surfaces, Dells...)

crazygringo• 4 years ago

I think this is framing it wrong.

First of all, you need something to write papers on, which means you're choosing between a laptop and a tablet with an add-on keyboard. "Traditional cheap pen and paper" doesn't work for writing papers.

Second, once you've got a device, it makes much more sense to take notes on it rather than pen and paper, for most people, because it's easier to keep organized, to keep backed up, to share with other students, and never worry about losing. (Oh crap I brought my red notebook to Econ 201 instead of my blue notebook!)

So it really comes down to, whether a laptop or tablet with keyboard is better. For some majors like CS you need a laptop full stop. For other majors the ability to draw diagrams with a pencil might be far more important. If you have a lot of digital textbooks then a tablet might be much more ergonomic to read them on than a laptop.

Not to mention tablets are often easier to protect, less likely to break, easier to slip into a bag, weigh less, etc.

But none of that has to do with "better grades" or "group pressure" or a "desire to fit in". It's entirely to do with a necessary tool, and which one meets your specific academic needs the best. You seem to be coming from an assumption that "expensive iPads and accessories" are in addition to a laptop+paper, whereas for a lot of students it's an alternative to.

fm2606• 4 years ago

I guess I'm too old school. Pen and paper don't require batteries or recharge (though possible more ink or lead, if a pencil instead of pen).

I've read enough of "how to take notes" and every one of the articles said take quick notes, get gist of the topic down. Once out of class immediately re-write the notes. This helps with learning and comprehension. Now, if you have back-to-back classes this goes out the window.

For me writing helps me remember. I think if I wanted to incorporate technology I would still use pen and paper. Then once I got home re-write my notes on what ever device was most appropriate. I feel like I would get double benefit of physically writing the notes and then reflecting on the lecture as I was typing them in.

Again, my own take and to each their own.

The best way to do anything is the way that works best for you!!!

tianqi• 4 years ago

In the title it's iPad vs laptop, but in the text it's iPad vs pen and paper. That gets me lost. When it comes to iPad replacing laptop. I don't think it's a good thing. iPad is a consumer of information (playing apps, watching videos). In contrast, laptop is more of a producer (developing apps, writing, reading but not lying around). iPad replacing laptop means that students are shifting more towards consumption rather than production,.

Tomte• 4 years ago

I'm almost certain that more art has been created on iPads than on all laptops combined. Procreate drawings alone might have done it.

smoldesu4• 4 years ago

I'm even more certain that Procreate was developed by somebody with a laptop.

Jtsummers• 4 years ago

By the time I was finishing with school, in the US, laptops had become almost ubiquitous on campus. iPads aren't a big difference from that. If you're upset about people not using pen and paper, you've got to go back 20+ years to find when the shift actually happened.

cosmodisk• 4 years ago

It doesn't help at all. It's a gimmick and it used(maybe still is) to look cool when you sit with a tablet and look like you are learning something. In any decent class, you'd have hard time following the pace the professor sets, so quickly writing on paper is much better.

gotorazor• 4 years ago

Unless you know and are practised at shorthand, most people type much much faster than they write by longhand --- even a fairly slow typist can do about 30-40 wpm vs writing is something like 30-40 characters per minute.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Words_per_minute

I still personally prefer using a fountain pen, but I am maybe writing a few words as a mnemonic device.

ss48• 4 years ago

It's a tool like anything else. If you use it right, it can allow you to do certain things better than you could on paper.

I used an iPad to take notes on PDFs of lectures and textbooks when possible. Was incredibly helpful, and searching worked faster than flipping pages. The stylus is very accurate as as easy to write with as paper.

Eventually found an app called Notability to takes notes that stayed in sync with audio recording of the lecture. Helped a ton concentrating on what was being spoken instead of trying to transcribe it, and revisiting areas of confusion.

Mixtape• 4 years ago

As a college senior myself, I think it's a bit of both. I think a lot of students buy iPads for the social appeal, and there's definitely something to be said about the impression that having a well-organized digital device gives that paper can't necessarily accomplish in things like interviews. That's not something that the STEM-brained among us care to admit, but fitting in socially can make or break your chances of advancement sometimes. I also see a lot of people cite genuine organizational advantages, which I can definitely understand. Being able to sort and access notes/assignments without having to scan them is a nice perk, as is being able to screenshot slides and record lectures (the ethics/efficacy of which are both up to your interpretation.) Color-coding is helpful to some people, as is being able to resize content on the page as needed. Then there's always the perk of having an internet-connected device on-hand for things like watching Zoom lectures, submitting assignments, etc. Being able to tackle all that on-the-go without relying entirely on your phone is nice.

There are occasionally some arguments put forth about environmentalism and saving the trees, but given the environmental costs of battery production, I really don't see it as a good reason.

As for my thoughts on the matter, I've honestly always thought that investing in a high-end iPad for college alone is (for me) a massive waste of money. My campus has plenty of computers available through their AD, so finding somewhere to get online is rarely an issue and is often easier than depending on our subpar mesh network. That's also how I access my textbooks, all of which are either online or (conveniently) located on my OneDrive. (Side note: I was also the idiot that didn't consider the combined weight of my gaming laptop and its massive charger when buying it at 18, so not having to carry it around campus on 95% of days does wonders for my back health.) Pen-and-paper has always worked fine for me, and the two little journals and pens that I carry around are plenty functional for my two in-person lectures. I have a huge problem with staying focused during lectures, so not having another device to yell at me or send me notifications in the middle of when I'm taking notes is a huge perk. If I really need to check an old set of slides or look something up, I have my phone for that. Finally, there's always the fact that not having another $1k+ device in my bag to break when I fall off of my skateboard, get stolen, etc. keeps a lot of pressure off of my day-to-day activities.

That being said, it really comes down to how the individual student uses it. If it's the main hub for all of your notes, assignments, meetings, calendar, etc. and that's all you need to get through the day, all the more to you. $1k over the course of a 120 credit degree is around $8.33 for every 3 credit class, so as long as it's providing that value, it's well worth it. I take issue with people suggesting that it can revolutionize your classroom experience because I find that with education the system that works best is the one you know. If I were to try to make the switch, I know it would end up being another source of distraction more than anything else. I may not be the norm though, and that's perfectly fine.

theredlancer• 4 years ago

Personally, I've used an Envy x360 as my laptop through my CS degree and with 1 more semester left, I can definitively say that having a touchscreen to take notes is much better than cheap pen and paper.

The biggest bonus is having my notes in the cloud. I can reference my notes on my phone, laptop, personal desktop, and on other people's computers. I don't need my backpack and notebooks with me to check on a theorem, pseudocode algorithm from class, or how to format that SQL query.

The second feature I use is being able to copy/paste and move notes around. If I run out of space (I like to keep my column width normalized), I can select an area of notes and move/resize, or transfer to an entirely different notebook. I can also copy text from a professor's slides or from a paper I'm researching, and then annotate that text in my notes.

If I was just taking notes for an english or history class, similarly to @_aavaa_, I don't think it would be as useful. Since I'm taking Math and CS courses with equations, graphs, system diagrams, and code I want to annotate, it's been very worth it. However, for short daily notes or scratch work, I do keep a (paper) notebook in my backpack as there's no bootup time or login to scratch out some ideas.

david_allison• 4 years ago

Drawing and typing significantly improved my grades. No sense of peer pressure. During university, half the time I used a Surface Pro 2, half the time I used a bluetooth keyboard connected to my Android phone.

My studying workflow was based on digitized notes, so it saved time. I didn't need to worry about running out of space on the page and didn't need to worry about losing notes. It also provided timestamping for free.

NoPicklez• 4 years ago

Having worked in a school in IT in my early career (10 years ago), where students were given laptops to use in the classroom, they are very useful. To be honest, I am quite surprised this question is still being asked in 2022.

The world of learning is moving online, textbooks are being provided electronically, assignments are being submitted electronically, grades are provided electronically and even some learning tools used in the classroom are online. Heck there are schools that have been providing laptops for students for the last decade.

I'd ask the question back to you, if you had to move back to pen and paper would it inhibit your ability to do your job? If so, then I think you know the answer.

rTX5CMRXIfFG2• 4 years ago

This doesn’t really answer the question. Sure, the whole world could be moving online but just because it is doesn’t mean that what makes learning effective is fundamentally changing, too.

shapefrog• 4 years ago

expensive iPads - cheap pen and paper - all this money - group pressure and a desire to fit in

The entire premise of your post is about your values and boils down to money well back in my day we spent all our money on booze and weed.

Are you jealous that kidz these days have nice things?

rTX5CMRXIfFG2• 4 years ago

Students need a computer to write papers with, and notebooks to write notes with. iPad + Pencil just happens to be one lightweight device that combines the functionality of all the heavy stuff that they usually have to carry, but I don’t think that effective studying and note-taking techniques have fundamentally changed.

lesuorac• 4 years ago

I don't think it'll make you get better or worse grades.

I started using the iPad 1 in high school to take notes and its so much nicer to just have 1 "notepad" to take notes for all of your classes than 6 different notepads. And god forbid we talk about textbooks as well. Only carrying basically an iPad and w/e paperback I needed for english is so nice.

knaik94• 4 years ago

One of the most helpful things for me was having a group of classmates who I joined a Google Doc with. It was the class I did best in that semester and it was a hard science class. It wasn't something that would work for every class, but it's something that wouldn't be possible without technology.

High schools and middle schools have started giving out a laptop to every student in my district. The teachers use google classroom. I don't know if a $1500 device will be better than a $800 device for grades, but even a $600 used device will be much better than going pen and paper only. There is group pressure to get an apple product, but that also depends on the major. In bio or psychology classes there was some elitism when I was the only one who pulled out a thinkpad, some classmates associated thick to business to slow and old. After I switched to CS the topic didn't come up again.

Every single one of my classes in college provided power points, even math and cs. I didn't need to worry about copying down the PPT while the teacher was lecturing. I took one class with a teacher who refused to provide a copy early and I meaningfully struggled more to learn the material. I switched sections/teachers in order to make sure that never happened to me again.

Depending on the comfort student, 2 in 1s have gotten good enough to where they could replace paper and pencil completely. The only time they would need to write on paper is for exams. I personally think iPads are a bad investment regardless of the student and their major. The software just isn't there, regardless of the model.

diebeforei485• 4 years ago

I have way too many old notebooks (school and work) that I have had to discard over the years. Or maybe some of them are still in a box somewhere, I have no idea.

If I had all my notes on an iPad, organized an searchable, and uploadable to the cloud or transferred to a desktop machine, that would be a much better situation.

That said, it isn't anything close to $2K. Students have access to good discounts through various retailers, but even the base iPad with a $329 full retail price works well enough for taking notes along with the $99 Pencil. It would easily last four years of college for note-taking.

The key is to disable all other apps (including iMessage) so it's a distraction-free device.

GekkePrutser• 4 years ago

Instead of the $99 pencil you can also get a Chinese knockoff for $20 or less. Works well enough to take notes and can be charged with a standard usb-C cable which I find handier than having it stick out of the iPad (gen1 pencil)

belfalas• 4 years ago

In my mind an iPad is really just a "laptop lite," especially when it comes to lay people using it. If a student has an iPad in a lot of cases they may not need a laptop. For many studies having a computer is also pretty much a requirement these days (even outside of STEM).

Do iPads or laptops lead to better grades? It depends on the student. If a student uses their iPad/laptop to do research and organize their life better, it will help. If a student parties hard and only uses their electronics to goof off on YouTube or Hacker News, it won't help them.

badrabbit• 4 years ago

I think they should use pen and pencils unless they absolutley must research on the internet.

musicale3• 4 years ago

I recently observed med students using iPads for study and coursework. The iPads seemed like a nice step beyond traditional textbooks and notebooks because of the imaging and 3D visualization capabilities for anatomy and physiology, and the seamless way students could manipulate and annotate images, diagrams, and graphs.

Lecture and lab notes also seemed nicely integrated.

musicale3• 4 years ago

Whenever I sit in the back of a lecture where students are using laptops to take notes, I notice a significant number of devices being used for extracurricular purposes: messaging apps, web browsing, etc.. The most hilarious (perhaps egregious, if you are instructor) examples were watching Netflix during a lecture, though youtube is also pretty common. The most depressing were gambling sites. Phones are usually set to messaging/youtube/twitter/etc.. Mobile games seemed rare, surprisingly. An interesting bit is that email seems much less popular than messaging apps.

In professional or academic conference sessions, most laptops seem to have an email app open. I expect professionals and researchers rely more on email.

I think someone once suggested that you could automatically monitor and rank conference session engagement by measuring wi-fi usage.

In any case, I can understand why some lecturers might advocate blocking wi-fi and cellular service during lectures. Though I sat in on one course where every student had a web app where they could follow along with the lecture and examples and also provide immediate feedback (e.g. solving short problems or answering questions addressed to the class) to the instructor.

subsection1h• 4 years ago

carlycue, are you an Apple employee or something? 74.3% of your comments include the word "Apple" and 73.6% of your submissions include the word "Apple".

https://hn.algolia.com/?query=author:carlycue+Apple&type=com...

https://hn.algolia.com/?query=author:carlycue+Apple&type=sto...

The first few comments you posted on HN include statements like "Apple is the biggest brand in the world" and "Apple is the most prestigious company to work for on planet earth".

WTF.

dankwizard• 4 years ago

Investor that bought in at $170 a share and by themselves will boost the company back up to recoup.

el_sinchi• 4 years ago

a tablet can also be used on other contexts.

the fallacy here is that they spend the money ONLY for taking notes

Ask HN: What are your thoughts on students replacing their notebooks with iPads?

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