Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

http://www.inc.com/magazine/201112/the-returnees.html

by mchafkin • 15 years ago

81 67 15 years ago

sounds• 15 years ago

This is just one anecdote. I don't see a broader trend of entrepreneurs fleeing the U.S. It's true, entrepreneurs are outside-the-box thinkers, so they may do unexpected things. Though the U.S. has plenty of troubles, I don't believe it's any better anywhere else.

(Except maybe Canada :-) I'm not from there, though, so I wouldn't know.)

randomdata2• 15 years ago

> Except maybe Canada

Canada is generally regarded as a terrible place for startups, unfortunately. The laws are pretty restrictive towards "disruptive" technologies and the government always bends in favour of the existing players.

iqster• 15 years ago

That's been my impression too. I'm trying to figure out why that is the case. Is it mainly because of laws that make it hard to fire bad employees? Payments such as unemployment benefits, social benefits, etc.? Tax code issues? Or something else entirely?

OmarIsmail• 15 years ago

> Canada is generally regarded as a terrible place for startups, unfortunately. The laws are pretty restrictive towards "disruptive" technologies and the government always bends in favour of the existing players.

What the heck are you talking about? Can you please provide some sources for this? Other than telecom and media I can't think of any space in the tech industry that the government is "restrictive" towards. In fact the Government has amazing programs for tech startups like SR&ED and IRAP, and you have amazing support systems like MaRS and Communitech in Ontario, with analogs in practically every province.

The thing that makes Canada tough for startups is the lack of an established VC ecosystem. This is why you see quite a few bootstrapped Canadian startups, and only a few Canadian startups that go really big. But labour is significantly cheaper than in the US (especially when you factor in free healthcare), labour in Canada often has a more worldwide mix (because of a large immigrant population), you get awesome tax credits and incentives, and quality of life is near the top of the world.

I'm not usually so jingoistic, but this one-off comment was really quite strange.

geebee2• 15 years ago

Yeah, it's worrisome to see immigrants or (especially) naturalized or native-born citizens with strong ties overseas leave the US to start companies. But not necessarily a bad thing.

If they are leaving because the US has become an unfriendly place to new businesses, especially in high tech, that's bad.

If they are leaving because opportunities overseas are exceptional, and it's easier to capitalize on those opportunities for people with strong cultural or linguistic ties to a particular region, that's not necessarily bad. Having grown up in SF, I see the tech boom as a mixed bag. It's of course phenomenal to have so much wealth here. But I've also seen a lot of displacement. It's hardly a crisis that we can't cram every single tech startup in to this small peninsula, and I don't think it's a bad thing that people might actually want to live somewhere else either, in the US (Austin, Seattle, Boulder...) or overseas (Seoul, Bangalore, Copenhagen...).

That said, I do think these sort of stories do underscore why it's so important for the US to have a steady and reliable stream of STEM graduates come up through our own educational system. It's great to be open to talent from the rest of the world, but becoming excessively reliant on it long-term seems like folly to me.

mikemarotti• 15 years ago

It seems to be a case of the latter. These entrepreneurs identified a gap in a foreign market and exploited it. It's mutually beneficial - benefits them because they are now a leader in their market, and it benefits us as there is now one less social-fucking-coupon website that we have to hear about.

billpatrianakos• 15 years ago

There may be a few stories like this but this is the exception, not the rule. As much as we have problems here in the states, it's still one of the easiest places to start and run a business (#4 in the world).

I didn't quite get why the guy in the story left for Korea though. It was just a story of an entrepreneur who left the states and is now S. Korea's Zuckerberg. So? I mean, it's impressive but so what if he left? Maybe his particular business would fair better there but again this the exception and not the rule.

There are other countries like China and India that have exploding GDP but the great thing about the U.S. is that while we are decently regulated those regulations don't do much to Hirt the founding of a business and allow businesses to expand easily. For example, India until recently has been chock full of mom and pop shops but not many larger, expanding businesses. This is because they didn't allow you to open a store in more than 2 location until just recently. That means no corporate franchises and the like. Over here you can pretty much do what you please within reason. Not sure why I got off track with the India anecdote but I just learned about it and thought it was very intriguing.

CWuestefeld• 15 years ago

while we are decently regulated those regulations don't do much to Hirt the founding of a business and allow businesses to expand easily.

On the contrary, consider:

[beginquote] In the wake of Sarbanes-Oxley legislation ..., "the psychology of the entrepreneur has changed dramatically," say Mark Heesen, president of the National Venture Capital Association. The basic reason is that in a world with Sarbanes-Oxley, everyone who wants to take their company public has to deal with extra paperwork and hoops to jump through. Those costs can add up and sometimes make going public simply not worth it. [1] [endquote]

For further details on this, see also [2]

[1] http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/risky-business/2008/07/1...

[2] http://www.nysscpa.org/cpajournal/2006/606/infocus/p14.htm

wtvanhest• 15 years ago

If your concern is going public then you have successfully grown a business to a gigantic and reasonably stable level and have beat all the odds. You have therefore picked the correct country.

While Sarbanes-Oxely does pose a financial burden on companies which is still too high (typically $1M to $3M/year), it does provide a level of protection for employees of those companies, bond holders and mutual funds which hold most of America's retirement money.

Paperwork and hoops for going public are handled by accountants and attorneys.

Sarbanes effectively removed corporate governance issues which cause huge problems (like having a captured board or having the audit firm also being paid for consulting etc.

The citations you cited are written by The National Venture Capital Association who lobbies against Sarbanes because it affects their returns. In fact, 69% of NCVA dues go to lobbying.

"We estimate that 69% of your dues will be used for lobbying and is not deductible because of recent changes in federal tax law." http://www.nvca.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=ar...

The second article you cite has the following quote: "Despite the many chilling headlines and reported cases where companies have cited SOX as the reason to shelve plans for an IPO, the evidence to date that SOX is sufficient cause for companies to stay private has been largely anecdotal or limited in scale."

--- All that said, SOX is too expensive and the D&O insurance should be reduced to increase public company valuations and IPO valuations. It does represent an unintended burden on shareholders, CEOs, Bond Holders etc. but SOX is overall positive in the sense that it minimizes fraud and reduces risk for all stakeholders including non management employees.

8bitpal3• 15 years ago

I'm really interested in what compels entrepreneurs to leave a country or area that was formerly a hub for startups.

I posted before in the context of SOPA: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3265961

What would it take for you to leave the place you are based now and try your luck somewhere else?

danneu2• 15 years ago

Along with the answer to your question that someone may provide you, perhaps also change, adventure, and rocking the boat? Mixing a little bit of life experience in with entrepreneurial endeavors? I'm only 23, but those reasons compel me.

8bitpal3• 15 years ago

Very true.

Would it compel to leave permanently though? I left my country of birth for the reasons you stated but I guess somewhere in the back of my head I see myself returning one day.

polyfractal• 15 years ago

I can think of a number of reasons.

-If you make hard-goods, being closer to your manufacturing may be helpful

-Cheaper staffing/skilled labor in non-US countries

-Cheaper cost of living elsewhere

-More corporation-friendly tax regulations

8bitpal3• 15 years ago

Rationally those are compelling reasons for a business to leave.

But I think personal reasons play a huge role in this decision. A majority of the people tend to only leave when the situation becomes unbearable (or not even then).

What would it take for you to leave your home country/area?

I guess it's hard to say until it actually happens. One reason for me to leave would be an oppressive government, I guess.

ark15• 15 years ago

I would add 'Visa issues' to that list that applies to people who are itching to start companies in the US after being here for 5+ years but cannot due to visa restrictions.

frankus• 15 years ago

I'm not much of an entrepreneur, but I'm planning to move just across the border to Vancouver so I can live with the Canadian I've been dating for eight and a half years (it's not totally impossible for us to live together down here but it's just so much more of a hassle that it's not worth it).

Unfortunately when I last checked a few months ago no one was really looking to hire iOS developers up there.

alecco• 15 years ago

Anecdotal evidence and a lot of narrative. What a poor article. Reminds me the also poorly researched bashing piece on Argentina a few months ago. They missed the point completely as business is booming here. A recent startup conference registered hundreds of projects. INC is junk reporting.

Edit: Same reporter! This is hilarious.

http://www.inc.com/magazine/201106/doing-business-in-argenti...

hello_moto7• 15 years ago

There are gazzilion reasons why people opted to do business back home as opposed to the U.S. and all of them are probably similar decision-making as to choosing your next programming languages: there's no one reason to rule them all.

I'm an immigrant. I'm considering heavily to go back home and start a business there (online, offline, doesn't matter). Reasons? cheaper workforce, more power, more connections, cherry picking, bigger pond, more people (consumers), etc.

I'll be using North America to include both US and Canada for the rest of my comment.

Here are a few more detailed examples (all of them are of course anecdotes to me):

Managing westerners that believe that they're entitled for everything such as perks, private offices, their choice of programming languages, their choice of best practices are often a time consuming activity. Back home, I can drive the workforce to do the best practices that I believe without having to have long discussions. Give them laptop, give them work, they're happy. This is because their mindset, perspective, and standard are different than here in North America. They're also cheaper.

After working with many programmers throughout my careers, I kind of grow a belief that I can train the less "creative" developers back home to be at the same level at most of the programmers in North America. They might not reach the level of superstar engineers, but they will reach the level of more than good enough at where I will be.

Connection is a big thing. It's harder to have a connection in N.A., especially when you're an immigrant (maybe it's just me). Where I come from, hooking up with people who have excess money is very easy. Especially when you graduate from a pretty good N.A. university (doesn't have to be Wharton or Harvard, UC Berkeley, UC Irvine is enough). They look at you as someone who has something "more" (whatever more that is).

In Iowa, you're nobody. In the [Capital City of your ancestor's land], you're something. Imagine that.

Overall, I find that the majority of large Asian cities are probably more alive than some well-known (but not necessarily large) N.A. cities.

Again, all of these are anecdotes.

moocow01• 15 years ago

"Back home, I can drive the workforce to do the best practices that I believe without having to have long discussions"

But this where you may be missing out on the value of a worker. In this day in age, someone who just cranks out something to a mold or specification is not as valuable to an organization. I'd much rather pay someone 5 times as much if they can think on their feet and not always have to rely on me to figure out how they should be working. Constantly having to define practices for a team of lemmings is a typically exhausting full time gig when you're the only one to take initiative and guide. The other problem is that we all make bad decisions from time to time and it is important to make sure we have competent people around us to correct our course when that occurs rather than a bunch of yes-men.

hello_moto7• 15 years ago

It's not as bad as you'd think.

These best practices are just the foundation, not necessary the long-term solutions. Once you have a set of standard, there's always room for improvement or changes.

The biggest problem with N.A. workers is that they can be categorized into 3 types when it comes to "Do Things":

- Do as they pleased (cause they think they know it all)

- Follow the best practice

- Follow the latest and greatest best practice and create some sort of work revolution in the middle of directing the ship toward the goal

You kind of need a "Yes-Man" if you're on early stage of startup inventing your own dream (I'm sure this is going to open a can of worm but hey... it's your startup).

I'm not discussing whether this is the best way or the worst way. I'm focusing on the "why" people chose culture that prefer "Yes-Man". It could be a way for them to exploit human psychology for all I know.

That's the thing. You need to be there to see how things are happening/working. It's totally different in there (Asia) than in here (US).

Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmare advises won't work in Asia while it may work in US or UK.

quanticle4• 15 years ago

>In Iowa, you're nobody. In the [Capital City of your ancestor's land], you're something. Imagine that.

Really? My experience (as an immigrant) has been quite the opposite. Here in America it's a lot easier to become "somebody". You work hard, develop your skills and learn to market yourself. Once you do that, you're either on a upward trajectory at your current firm or you have the prerequisites to find yourself a better position elsewhere.

In my native country (India) family connections still count for quite a great deal, and job switching is still somewhat frowned upon (though attitudes regarding both of the above have improved immensely in the past 20 years). Therefore, you can have skills and a hard work ethic and still find yourself stuck in a not-great situation.

hello_moto7• 15 years ago

My assumption/pre-requisite is that if you can become an immigrant, in a few situations, your family is rich already or successful back home thus you would have connections already and you're probably in mid to high economy class.

I think you can say the same thing too everywhere: Work Hard, Develop Skills, Market yourself.

Marketing seems to be the key point in developing countries probably because the average people are not exposed to certain kind of hypes.

PLejeck• 15 years ago

If SOPA passes, imagine how much worse the situation will get D:

bryanlarsen• 15 years ago

Sure, there are entrepreneurs leaving. But there are still lots of people moving to the States to become entrepreneurs. YC is one of many factors. What's the ratio of coming to going? I suspect that it's still quite a bit higher than 1.0...

beefman2• 15 years ago

Yet another article written for the pleasure of its author. Just tell us what data you have and how they answer the question in your (leading) headline. Three sentences and a table; done.

mchafkin• 15 years ago

I take exception to this point--You want a table? Make a table--But so you know: There are very few stats on reverse migration because the U.S. government stopped tracking it in 1957. There have been some really great studies academic studies, if you're interested in checking them out.

http://www.kauffman.org/research-and-policy/immigration-and-...

But even these studies are pretty small and fairly limited. Definitely more research is needed into this area.

beefman2• 15 years ago

Your comment would have been an excellent alternative to the article; I'm not sure why you're taking exception.

nirvana3• 15 years ago

In several of the comments, people have asked why entrepreneurs might want to leave the USA, given the common perception that the USA is a great place to do a business. I'm making this comment in response to those questions as an example of an entrepreneur whose left the USA. My reasons for doing this are obviously going to be different than those who would choose not to, so don't get mad. I'm not trying to persuade you, just explaining.

I was born in the USA, and worked for startups for nearly 2 decades in the USA, but when it came time to do my own startup, I left the USA. There are many reasons for this, and further, when I come back to the USA, I'm reminded of some of the nice things we've given up.

The biggest reason we left is that the cost of living is high in the west coast of the USA, compared to most of the rest of the world. If we could travel around the world and actually save money while getting to do something we've always enjoyed doing, then that's great. Going to europe is more expensive than the USA, but not that much, well worth it. In fact, berlin was such cool city, that if germans were more supportive of the idea that we might want to stay there for an extended period we'd be working on residency permits.

But behind this reason is another one- The USA is going in the wrong direction. Pick whatever examples work best for you- SOPA, domain seizures, an increasingly baroque tax code, increasing regulations all over that, even though they don't yet effect small businesses much, would be a burden if we are at all successful, even dealing with the TSA when I want to fly, and the thought that my tax money is being used to kill afghani, iraqi, pakistani and other children.

When I was young, I was brought up to believe that the USA was great because it believed in human rights. That the bill of rights protected us from an out of control government. Over the years, I've seen those rights be violated, one by one, and the supreme court claim that it was "legal" in their rulings. I've come to believe that there is no effective restraint on the US government by the legal system, and I've been shocked to see, how rapidly these transgressions are accelerating.

For instance, I still can't wrap my mind around the fact that at ever airport adults and children have a choice between being photographed nude by government agents and being molested by same. This is a violation of state laws in probably all 50 states, yet no charges have been filed. Worse, while many americans protest, there has been no action. I take this as evidence that americans will put up with any rights violations. Many of them will get mad, but they have no method to resolve the situation. While Obama was president when these scanners were put in, only a couple of the people wanting to run against him want them out. And while Bush was president when the TSA was created and the PATRIOT act was passed, Obama has expanded both. Despite the majority of people opposing various bits of legislation (like the bank bailouts) they still get passed. So, I see no way for things to turn around until things get bad enough to make people really unformfortable.

Also, I've studied economics and been watching the economic situation. I've come to understand the real nature of the federal reserve and the fiat currency of the USA. The USA benefited greatly from Bretton Woods alls these decades, but a side effect of that is that the inflation that has existed in the dollar supply has been exported to other countries, giving americans an artificially better standard of living. This in itself is not bad, but it and our debtor economy are dependent on that money being kept out of the system by being locked up in vaults and pocketbooks and accounts of foreigners who want it because they think the dollar is a strong currency. Given the fact that our economy is faltering, but more importantly our government is spending like crazy (obama is worse than bush who was worse than clinton who was worse than bush who was worse than the very bad reagan who was worse than carter, it just goes on...) eventually they are going to be inflating so fast that the dollar loses its reserve status, and at that point, it won't matter that the US government is inflating because people will start dumping their dollars. We'll start seeing the effect of all those previous years inflation that was exported realized in the dollars in a rather short time. This is not a black swan event, it happens regularly, just not often enough that people remember its possible. But because of bretton woods, it will be much worse for the usa than, say, argentina.

Its pretty much impossible to do business in the USA and not be tied up in the dollar economy.

Meanwhile, because I have been a traveller, I've been to other countries and seen how in some ways at least many of them are better than the USA. Chile for instance, has a culture that is more instinctively capitalist. New Zealand, while its more socialist on the surface has a much less corrupt government. So the question becomes, of all these countries, which provides the best protections of the rights I care most about and is also going in the right direction? I've not yet decided, I'm still traveling.

There's a lot to commend the USA. One surprising thing is how convenient having amazon and walmart is. Especially compared to europe. You can just order anything you want from amazon or go to a walmart and buy most anything you want. In europe, the retail stores are generally very tiny, and with the exception of an astounding chain of 3 story electronics shops we found in berlin, its often very hard to find obscure things. And when you do, of course, the prices are often almost doublet the USA due to tariffs and on top of that you've got %20 VAT.

One downside of running a startup this way is that traveling involves spending a fair bit of time on the traveling part. This gets in the way of the startup part, and it is also a bit disruptive. Each time we go to the next country we have a bit of time figuring out where the grocery store is, arranging the apartment to suit our needs, etc. We're staying in AirBnB places almost exclusively and AirBnB has totally solved a lot of the hassles of having to find apartments. But we're going to try staying linger- getting permits to stay a year or so in each country.

Finally, its a hell of a lot of fun to run a startup this way.

So, I'm sure most on hacker news disagree with at least something I've said, and this post is by its nature political because it is a questions whose answers, for me, are politically motivated. I'm not looking for a debate. If you disagree with my perspective on any of these things, that's fine, but I took a long time to reach them, and a lot of consideration, and there's really not much point in trying to persuade me (nor am I trying to pursuade you. I'm just answering the question.)

I am up for answering followup questions if anyone's concerned about mechanics etc.

acabal2• 15 years ago

I completely agree with everything you've said, and that's why I'm doing the same thing. My girlfriend is German so I was thinking of trying for a residency permit there next year. You mentioned the government wasn't supportive; do you have any anecdotes on the difficulty (or otherwise) of getting a short-term German residency permit?

naner• 15 years ago

Here's an anecdote from a HN'er trying to start a business in Germany:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3224374

henrikschroder• 15 years ago

Where are you principally doing business?

nirvana3• 15 years ago

That sure looks like a straight forward question, but it actually isn't. Business is an abstraction. We do the work we need to do wherever we are, but the business lives elsewhere, while our primary market is global, such that one of the countries with our largest sales (prior to recent pivot) is a country we've never visited.

davidw2• 15 years ago

> Pick whatever examples work best for you

We have a black guy as president. That simply would not have happened even 20 years ago. At protests, even relatively minor nastiness by police is filmed and broadcast immediately. Look up what the police did in some places in the 60ies as a comparison. We have the internet to get information out about various things.

It's easy to see and complain about the bad things, and right to do so, or else they wouldn't improve. It's also worth considering though, that things have improved in many ways.

> Chile for instance, has a culture that is more instinctively capitalist.

I don't know much about Chile, but didn't they vote in a guy who was more or less a communist in the 70ies? Who was then murdered, along with many people, by a brutal dictator, who put in place many capitalist institutions? Which do turn out to work better than the alternative in many cases, so they've been kept? I don't know what the average 'man on the street's view of the whole thing is though. Is it possible the capitalism was kind of foisted on the country and has stuck because it more or less works, but that it's not all that ingrained into the culture? I have no idea, honestly, but do think the Startup Chile thing is pretty cool even if they didn't accept me.

rdouble3• 15 years ago

Maybe everyone's a capitalist there out of residual cultural fear of being targeted by a caravan of death for having an alternative viewpoint.

duopixel• 15 years ago

It's worth mentioning that the CIA did everything they could to prevent that "communist guy" from being elected and govern peacefully, and once his government was overthrown it offered all its support to that "brutal dictator", by their own admittance https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/general-reports-1/chile/....

billpaetzke• 15 years ago

Are you still a US citizen? If not, where? Is your startup registered in the US (i.e. a Delaware LLC)? If not, where?

What country/ies are appealing to you to switch citizenship and registration to, if any, for economical and legal reasons?

kevinqualters• 15 years ago

"Also, I've studied economics and been watching the economic situation. I've come to understand the real nature of the federal reserve and the fiat currency of the USA. The USA benefited greatly from Bretton Woods alls these decades, but a side effect of that is that the inflation that has existed in the dollar supply has been exported to other countries, giving americans an artificially better standard of living. This in itself is not bad, but it and our debtor economy are dependent on that money being kept out of the system by being locked up in vaults and pocketbooks and accounts of foreigners who want it because they think the dollar is a strong currency. Given the fact that our economy is faltering, but more importantly our government is spending like crazy (obama is worse than bush who was worse than clinton who was worse than bush who was worse than the very bad reagan who was worse than carter, it just goes on...) eventually they are going to be inflating so fast that the dollar loses its reserve status, and at that point, it won't matter that the US government is inflating because people will start dumping their dollars. We'll start seeing the effect of all those previous years inflation that was exported realized in the dollars in a rather short time. This is not a black swan event, it happens regularly, just not often enough that people remember its possible. But because of bretton woods, it will be much worse for the usa than, say, argentina."

This entire paragraph is horseshit and is what happens when your knowledge of economics comes from reading random shit on the internet. I'd start to tell you why you are wrong but it's so far from the truth it's "not even wrong."

ftwinnovations• 15 years ago

Sorry kevinqualters but it sounds like you need to spend some time researching what he brought up before you call it horseshit. You had no specific examples why it's wrong because, well, obviously you don't know what actually is right.

But trust me, like you, I sure would prefer he were wrong...

edelweiss2• 15 years ago

It made sense for entrepreneurs to leave the U.S. since 2003 (when I moved my family of 5 to Vienna Austria), so it's already too late (not so easy to renounce US Citizenship now, new draconian financial reporting laws for expats and new laws which prevent taking assets out of the country kick in 2013). In 2013 I will renounce my US Citizenship to gain Austrian Citizenship. I have thought long and hard about this. I am proud of the principles the US was founded on, which are trampled on each and every day in Congress, by the President, and in the Supreme Court. I am proud of those who sacrificed for the good of our country, who sacrificed to preserve those rights and to bestow them on me upon my birth. Those sacrifices are dishonored and spit upon daily by our politicians, and their kleptocrat corporate owners. I will always love the United States, and the majority of it's honorable, kind, and caring people. However I have no love of this totalitarian nightmare which is our government. Our government is illegitimate, despicable, and dishonorable. "But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty to throw off such government and provide new guards for their future security." People don't talk that way anymore. Beautiful, huh? - No idea what you said. - It means, if there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action have the responsibility to take action. " National Treasure - 2004 "Because you are the president of USA, sir. Whether it is to your character ... Of the oath that you have taken To the Constitution to protect. Of the weight of history That rests on your shoulders. I believe you Are an honorable man, sir. Gates, that sort of thing People do not believe anymore. They want to believe in it." National Treasure Book of Secrets - 2007 Getting a VISA in Austria is straightforward, and Vienna is the best city in the world for quality of life (Mercer 2009, 2010, 2011).

Rules for Migrating to Austria Red-White-Red VISA http://www.migration.gv.at/en/types-of-immigration/permanent....

edelweiss2• 15 years ago

It made sense for Entrepreneurial US Citizens to leave the U.S. since 2003 (when I moved my family of 5 to Vienna Austria), so it's already too late (not so easy to renounce US Citizenship now, new draconian financial reporting laws for expats and new laws which prevent taking assets out of the country kick in 2013).

In 2013 I will renounce my US Citizenship to gain Austrian Citizenship. I have thought long and hard about this. I am proud of the principles the US was founded on, which are trampled on each and every day in Congress, by the President, and in the Supreme Court. I am proud of those who sacrificed for the good of our country, who sacrificed to preserve those rights and to bestow them on me upon my birth. Those sacrifices are dishonored and spit upon daily by our politicians, and their kleptocrat corporate owners.

I will always love the United States, and the majority of it's honorable, kind, and caring people. However I have no love of this totalitarian nightmare which is our government.

Our government is illegitimate, despicable, and dishonorable.

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty to throw off such government and provide new guards for their future security."

People don't talk that way anymore.

Beautiful, huh?

- No idea what you said. - It means, if there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action have the responsibility to take action. "

National Treasure - 2004

"Because you are the president of USA, sir. Whether it is to your character ... Of the oath that you have taken To the Constitution to protect. Of the weight of history That rests on your shoulders. I believe you Are an honorable man, sir.

Gates, that sort of thing People do not believe anymore.

They want to believe in it."

National Treasure Book of Secrets - 2007

Getting a VISA in Austria is straightforward, and Vienna is the best city in the world for quality of life (Mercer 2009, 2010, 2011).

http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/11/30/vienna-austria-named-wor...

Rules for Migrating to Austria Red-White-Red VISA

http://www.migration.gv.at/en/types-of-immigration/permanent....

tomkarlo• 15 years ago

Amazingly, if you have thousands of entrepreneurs, some of them will go to other countries. I'm sure there's also some examples of South Korean entrepreneurs coming to the US and starting businesses here. I've worked with some guys who came from Taiwan and started multi-billion-dollar US ecommerce businesses.

Are either of those necessarily trends? Not unless you can come up with some numbers to support the anecdotes, which this story doesn't seem to have. We don't know if entrepreneurs are leaving at a greater rate than before, or even if there's a net loss (lots of people come to the US and end up starting small businesses.) If it's in the story, I missed it.

protez• 15 years ago

It’s true that South Korean start-up scene is getting better from the interest of institutional funds, which got up from the apparent success of the Grouponzi-style businesses, esp. TicketMonster. But it’s a whole lot different story that the Americans return here because Seoul is a better place for start-ups. The M&A market for Internet start-ups in Seoul is almost non-existent, except few cases like TM, and TNC, the only acquisition Google made in South Korea. I don’t understand how this ecosystem would persist without deals any longer.

As a side note, the Shin in the article is a family member of the “big brother” Chaebol, Samsung Group, which has close knots with big conglomerates such as CJ Group, Joongang Ilbo, Shinsegae, and more, almost to the extent of their aggregate revenue reaching almost a half of South Korea GDP, so he earned attractive deals from big local brands so easily. Shin wan’t irrational enough not to exploit his family connections to build a business based on a totally unprofitable model, a feat only possible at the right moment and right place. Definitely, he’s a smart guy, smart enough being ready to return if he no longer sees his advantages here in Seoul, which I think would be quite unlikely though, due to his superb “Zuck status” in S. Korea.

Why are entrepreneurs leaving the U.S.?

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