Zynga's Tough Culture Risks a Talent Drain

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/zyngas-tough-culture-risks-a-talent-drain/?hp

by timr • 15 years ago

202 99 15 years ago

dealbook.nytimes.com

philk• 15 years ago

The worst thing about working yourself to death at Zynga would be knowing you were toiling to produce shoddy little pseudo-games. At least when, say, jwz was putting in insane hours at Netscape he was building Netscape Navigator.

Also those Farmville character cutouts in the photo are possibly the creepiest thing in the universe.

dredmorbius• 15 years ago

You've just created an perpetual motion machine.

I'm flipping endlessly between "he's serious" and "he's ironic".

So ... which is it?

suivix• 15 years ago

Those 'pseudo-games' keep my wheelchair bound grandmother occupied (and possibly even entertained) throughout her day. They provide value to some people.

jemfinch• 15 years ago

And millions more waste atrocious amounts of time being unproductive--or worse, becoming addicted or going into debt.

Farmville abuses the social guilt that evolution built into our human nature to bring profit to Zynga. Do you really think its net contribution to society is positive because of your grandmother and people like her?

zerostar07• 15 years ago

I'd say it's true that social games create a wonderful opportunity for people to socialize. That said, there is nothing challenging or cutting-edge about making these games.

natch• 15 years ago

There are much better things she could be doing with her time.

tokenadult• 15 years ago

Those 'pseudo-games' keep my wheelchair bound grandmother occupied (and possibly even entertained) throughout her day.

First of all, let me agree with the general principle that in a free country with a free-enterprise economy, people ought to be able to spend their money (and time) in the way that they find most valuable, based on their personal circumstances. I was one customer among millions for what was then the best-selling phonograph album of all time (Michael Jackson's Thriller album, one of the first compact discs I bought). You can argue legitimately that listening to recorded music is a frivolous activity, and argue even more legitimately that Jackson, born the same year I was, was already rich enough in his twenties that he didn't need my money, but I was happy to spend money on something that added fun to my day while I was working hard to establish my career. There's no particular policy reason for any of us to oppose people spending time or money on what helps them get through the day.

With reference to your grandmother needing to be in a wheelchair at all times, you have my deepest sympathies. My late dad had a slip and fall on the ice from a late-season snowstorm (in APRIL!) and then was a quadriplegic from his spinal cord injury for the last six years of his life. Surgery attempting to treat his injury took him from being unable to use his limbs to being unable to swallow and having great difficulty even speaking, both things he could do just fine immediately after his injury. Once people lose mobility, they undergo a radical change in lifestyle, and no decent person will begrudge paraplegics or quadriplegics the opportunity to choose recreation that helps them cope with new circumstances. My dad never took up playing computer games--and of course had no mobility for operating a computer after his injury. I remember spending about a month, in a series of visits, reading aloud to him the book The Endurance: Shackleton's Legendary Antarctic Expedition,

http://www.amazon.com/Endurance-Shackletons-Legendary-Antarc...

which is an inspiring story of human beings facing other extremely tough challenges. I was glad I took the time to do that--reading the book was good for me. My best wishes go to anyone who has a relative not fully able to do the normal daily activities able-bodied people take for granted.

OllieJones• 15 years ago

> those Farmville character cutouts in the photo are possibly the creepiest thing in the universe.

Second creepiest. How about the grinning ghoul standing next to them?

gscott• 15 years ago

And they want your stock options back as soon as your not as valuable to them anymore so they can give them to the next guy.

koops• 15 years ago

Add this to the fact that they steal others' ideas, and it's a tough company to like.

pkteison3• 15 years ago

I think most people here on hacker news understand that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and it's execution that counts. There are -plenty- of things to dislike about Zygna before complaining about the fact that FarmWhatzit works just like Uncle Bob's MyFarmifier or whatever. "But x did it first" arguments on simple things that anybody could up with simply don't help anything in any way.

gfodor2• 15 years ago

I think you should read more about exactly what the parent post is referring to. Zynga's history of one of blatent theft -- there is a hair's breadth between their games and the people whose originals they ripped off.

jtchang• 15 years ago

Company culture can sometimes be stressful. Zynga is no different. What worries me though is that compensation packages are being rescinded. This is generally a bad sign. I am constantly reminded of the spirit and the letter. The spirit of these packages is that early employees took a risk and should be rewarded. Even though the packages can watered down and taken away doesn't make it right.

owyn2• 15 years ago

I don't think you can run a 3000 person ~1B/y company like a startup. It's one thing if there are make or break projects at a bigger company that people sign up for explicitly, but it's not scalable. Not everybody can work at that pace and people who can't or won't are just as valuable (perhaps even more so) over the long haul. You have to pace yourself for the long term and put in a reward structure to match that goal. Look at Apple vs a place like Zynga and think about who is more likely to be around in 5 years...

Also, I've seen that 4-5 years is about how much time engineers are willing to put into a startup company before they want some kind of a cash out : liquidity : burn your options in a barrel at burning man situation. If you think about the expected half-life of a silicon valley engineering career, you can probably do 2 or 3 of those before you are burned out entirely or prefer to work at a non insane company. Founders are probably not as aware of this because they naturally are 100% invested, but you have to surround yourself with quality employees who won't put up with your bullshit forever.

nostrademons5• 15 years ago

"Look at Apple vs a place like Zynga..."

Bad example. The folks I know at Apple are ridiculously overworked. I've got a cousin who works on FileMaker that's been putting in 12+ hour days and weekends for the last year. I've got a friend who works on iMessage for the iPhone, and his roommates never see him at home unless they specifically arrange a social event with him.

I think that if you want a company in Silicon Valley with decent work/life balance, it'd probably be Microsoft, Adobe, Cisco, or one of the other last-generation giants. Google depends on your team; there're parts of Infrastructure, Apps, etc. that work reasonable hours with little deadline pressure, but people on the money teams (Search, Ads, Android, Doodles) are often there at all hours because they set very ambitious and complex goals for themselves. Facebook has a reputation for long hours and weekend hackathons. Yahoo is apparently very variable: some folks are putting in 12-14 hour days and still not getting all their work done, while others work for like 2-3 hours and spend the rest of the day on Facebook. Apple I already mentioned.

raghus3• 15 years ago

Doodles?

owyn2• 15 years ago

Good point, I have no first hand knowledge of working at Apple. I have worked at some smaller companies (and that's where I am now) that do have a good work/life balance but nobody would recognize those names so I just picked one. Definitely appreciate the insight though. I do occasionally contemplate working at a bigger company, and it's good to think about all the trade-offs. It's also interesting to think about the culture of a company, how that grows and evolves, and how that matches your own goals and ideals. It's not just about the money. I do think it's possible to do good work and be happy at a small/medium sized company that has a pretty cool product but isn't going to be the "next xyz".

speby• 15 years ago

Can't wait!

m0nastic• 15 years ago

This part seemed especially troubling:

"But PopCap’s founders worried about the company’s reputation after hearing rumors of the company’s rescinding share awards and fierce internal competition, said two people with first-hand knowledge of the situation. Instead, PopCap agreed to a rival offer from Electronic Arts, worth $750 million in cash and stock and the potential of an additional $550 million if certain earnings goals were met."

You agree to be acquired for less money by EA because of the culture of Zynga? EA. Arguably the worst-regarded place for game developers to work.

jackowayed• 15 years ago

Well, EA was offering up to $1.3B with the incentives. Plus I wouldn't be surprised if Zynga made an extremely stock-heavy offer, which is riskier than cash and currently-publicly-traded EA stock

raghus3• 15 years ago

The article says it was all cash

In July, Zynga lost a bid for PopCap, a mobile game company. Zynga offered $950 million in cash.

starwed• 15 years ago

The article spells out the opposite:

>"In July, Zynga lost a bid for PopCap, a mobile game company. Zynga offered $950 million in cash."

>"PopCap agreed to a rival offer from Electronic Arts, worth $750 million in cash and stock and the potential of an additional $550 million if certain earnings goals were met."

pkteison3• 15 years ago

I have 3 friends who have worked for EA recently, in different offices in different states. They all agree that things are noticeably better since the EA wife lawsuit. It's not perfect, but it's not the constant death marches it used to be. I'd say Zygna has handily surpassed EA in the horrible reputation department.

tsunamifury• 15 years ago

Irony of ironies, did you know the author of the ea spouse blog also worked for zygna.

gamble2• 15 years ago

I'm an EA spouse. The culture depends very strongly on the particular studio. It's mainly the old studios like Redwood Shores and Tiburon that have the really bad reputations, though they have gotten a bit better. I'd say it's partly the lawsuit, but also partly Riccitiello's effort to create a healthier culture.

_delirium• 15 years ago

EA also has some history of allowing semi-independence of studios they buy out if they have enough clout and fight for it. Maxis managed to even stay in a physically different location, partly to maintain cultural independence, and partly because Will Wright didn't want to commute to Redwood City. Admittedly, being Will Wright is sort of an exceptional case when it comes to negotiating clout.

pbreit2• 15 years ago

$750m cash + $550m in public company stock could easily be considered more than $950m cash.

yalogin• 15 years ago

Did we not see another report recently that employees at square are also worked to death? So is it even worse at Zynga or is it because its going public?

codeonfire5• 15 years ago

Every job is going to suck if you're an engineer for hire. There is no mythical good place to work, and if there were, someone like these guys would be working overtime to make it suck for you. If you're an engineer you need to be working on selling your own products and services and working within the framework of being a business owner. Once you accept a permanent salaried position, no more negotiation is possible and you will have to weigh each new set of terms dictated to you with the cost of quitting. Setting up a business allows you to renegotiate with clients and you will never have to take the career hit of quitting a salaried position again.

linuxhansl3• 15 years ago

I disagree. Motivation is big factor for performance. A demotivated work force will only do exactly what it is being told, and show initiative. So any company - even when acting in self interest - will treat employees well.

No place is just ice cream all day long, there's some dog food too sometimes, sometimes there's stress.

I've been doing software in various positions (some big companies, some startups) for over 20 years, and for the most part I love it... I love my current job. Nobody asks for overtime.

codeonfire5• 15 years ago

> So any company - even when acting in self interest - will treat employees well.

Well, the premise of the submission pretty much refutes that unless you call loud outbursts, threats, reduced equity, and demotions "well treated".

>I've been doing software in various positions (some big companies, some startups) for over 20 years

Oh, why'd you switch companies if everything was so great?

>I love my current job

I'm sure everyone at Zynga loved their job at some point as well. And, while one example doesn't prove my point that every engineering job will eventually suck, it is a pattern that is repeated.

nostrademons5• 15 years ago

I think you haven't worked at enough places.

enneff5• 15 years ago

I'm a counter example. I've run my own successful businesses in the past, but now I'm an Engineer at Google and I often worry that my life is just too good to be true. I look forward to Monday morning, and have to stop myself from working on weekends and the evenings. It's too much fun! Honestly, being paid good money to work in a supportive environment with great people is hard to beat.

codeonfire5• 15 years ago

So google has been canning several projects lately. How will you feel when your project gets canned and your work thrown away? How would you feel about a 25% pay cut or being forced to move to a different state, or free food being cut? What if you're put under a micromanager who forces you to work weekends and nights to cover his/her ineptitude? Do you think GOOG shareholders would not rather keep the money that you cost? Shareholders and management will eventually alter the deal you are currently getting in their favor. If you generate value, other people want that value and it will suck at some point in the future if you continue on as rank and file.

chrisbennet• 15 years ago

I'm a software developer and except for one job 25 years ago, I've enjoyed going to work every day and the companies and the men I worked for were great to me. Maybe I'm lucky?

melindajb• 15 years ago

Not surprising to any of us who live here and have been hearing the stories for quite some time. While hard work is essential and data driven decision making critical; when it crosses the line into abusiveness without offering any of the benefits of a steve jobs, it's over the line. What happens when investment bankers run amok. there's a reason profits are flattening....

DanielRibeiro• 15 years ago

Now this was interesting:

While such a culture is not uncommon in the game industry, it can create problems. Employees at Electronic Arts and Activision Blizzard have filed lawsuits against their employers, with claims of hostile work conditions and withheld compensation. In 2006, Electronic Arts settled two class-action lawsuits by game artists and programmers for about $15 million each

nerfhammer• 15 years ago

see http://andymerrett.co.uk/blog/2004/12/09/ea-the-human-story/

akkartik2• 15 years ago

Man, this article has the fingerprints of the submarine all over it (http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html). Lots of emphasis on corrective measures, just a passing mention of option clawbacks, with the reassurances that it "affected only a limited number of senior employees."

praptak• 15 years ago

The one-liner impression I got from the article is "I don't ever want to work for Zynga". The points you mention look to me like trying to present a balanced point of view.

drivingmenuts• 15 years ago

Well, on the other hand, you have Uncrunched with two Rand-ian articles about how you should just put up with the beatings.

You pays your money, you takes your picks.

akkartik2• 15 years ago

Ah, I just saw what you mean: http://uncrunched.com/2011/11/27/the-evil-zynga

unreal37• 15 years ago

As much as I don't like Zynga and probably would not enjoy working there (too intense all day every day), it is actually nice to read an article that seems balanced. People do work there, and people do like it. It's different than most companies, and it's not for everyone .

I am intrigued by the merit-based systems they are experimenting with.

raganwald• 15 years ago

  It is actually nice to read an article that seems balanced

See: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3284741

klochner• 15 years ago

Wonderful implication of this ridiculous assertion without actually stating it:

   [Mark's excel spreadsheets] allow Zynga to fine-tune its
   games to optimize engagement, helping the company attract
   some 270 million unique users each month

skrebbel2• 15 years ago

I'm too stupid. Care to elaborate?

rickmb• 15 years ago

On the other hand, Zynga is actually addressing these issue. If they integrate that self-reflection into their company culture, they may end up being a better place to work than so many start-ups that only have a "cool" company culture because the owner is cool.

At a certain scale (and this comes very quickly) you need to actively maintain a company culture. So many companies forget to do that, and then fall back into old school corporate methods to manage the problems that come with growth.

ricardobeat• 15 years ago

Rovio is an 8-year-old company, not a start-up...

andrewfelix• 15 years ago

" the organization thrives on numbers, relentlessly aggregating performance data" Enron had a system like this, designed to retain top level staff and lose the dead wood. It actually created an obsession with short term gains and an effort to get good 'review' scores. It also led to employees shitting on each other in an attempt to stay employed.

Jgrubb• 15 years ago

A tangential story, pardon me.

I was in San Francisco a couple weeks ago playing a couple shows at the Independent. My buddy Fritz owns a bar/restaurant called the Connecticut Yankee, and was giving me a ride from the hotel to the airport with a breakfast and Irish coffee stop over at the Yankee on the way. We cruised right past Zynga's HQ, which is a few blocks away.

"Wow, Zynga's right there, huh?"

[aggravated grumbling from Fritz]

"Why? What could a bar owner have against a big business full of people making lots of money being a few blocks away?"

"Well, all these tech companies hire their own chefs now. None of those people even leave the building all day. It's totally slaughtered my lunchtime crowd."

I'd never really considered the micro-economic effects of the Google Chef before, but there you go.

jedc• 15 years ago

IIRC, Google only hired Charlie Ayers when they moved out of downtown Palo Alto to suburban Mountain View. Perhaps the free food phenomenon might have never happened if Google had moved to SFO instead?

swah• 15 years ago

What do they code there, mostly? Flash?

jpancake• 15 years ago

I work, tangentially, in the games industry. A reasonably well-known programmer, who had a monster hit in the Atari days, works in my office. The topic of Zynga came up on an internal list recently. He had this to say:

"Zynga continues to set precedents in the high-tech field. This ranks up there with a friend of mine who, while working at Zynga suffered a heart attack without warning one day (in his 40s).

In the 3 days he was in the hospital, his boss was replaced and his new boss reorganized the department. The new boss called my friend on the hospital room phone and fired him.

(Yes, there was a lawsuit. And yes, Zynga settled while – of course – denying any wrongdoing.)

But seriously... Who does that sort of thing?"

pbreit2• 15 years ago

tl;dr: Some people, mostly competitors and ex-employees, think that the coarse characteristics that directly led to Zynga's outrageous success might lead to problems in the future.

Zynga's Tough Culture Risks a Talent Drain

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