Success in Canada means moving to America

https://thewalrus.ca/why-success-in-canada-means-moving-to-america/

by andrewl • 4 years ago

180 263 4 years ago

lotsofpulp2• 4 years ago

Because a market of 38M people has fewer and smaller opportunities than a market of 334M people, assuming same relative levels of wealth.

skippyboxedhero5• 4 years ago

Size of domestic market used to be the theory in the 60s (it led to the formation of the EU), but isn't a popular explanation anymore because most large countries never ended up getting rich. Economic system used to be theory in the 90s, but also has fallen out of favour as countries that had "good systems" never really caught up (the UK has a very similar system in many ways, but doesn't have that final piece). It isn't really that simple. The US just appears to have everything at once. The closest is probably Australia or possibly Switzerland (both are significantly smaller than Canada).

Also, the US and Canada do not have the same level of wealth...the only country in the world that is close to the US in wealth is Switzerland and Australia (the latter is a bit unclear but is probably true once superannuation is included). Canada is definitely up there but is more similar to Europe than the US, again there is nowhere that really compares to the US.

brabel2• 4 years ago

the only country in the world that is close to the US in wealth is Switzerland and Australia

What?! I have no idea where you got that idea from, but looking at https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/ you can see the USA is 13th in the world when its wealth is divided by its population.

If you were trying to say that the USA is the wealthiest nation in absolute terms, I would understand, but when you place Australia and Switzerland as the only nations that "come close" you're clearly implying per capita wealth, meaning that's nonsense.

chongli• 4 years ago

The EU is not very comparable to the US. Pass all the laws you want allowing mobility and trade between EU members, you’re still not going to bridge the deep language and culture divides between the countries.

The US is a true single market because English is the dominant language and because everyone from the Deep South to Alaska consumes the cultural products of Hollywood and New York and the technology of Silicon Valley.

pkaye2• 4 years ago

Doesn't Australia mostly rely on its iron and coal mining? Minerals is basically 2/3d of their exports.

d_burfoot• 4 years ago

The US loses only to Switzerland in mean wealth per capita, but ranks below even a country like Italy in median WPC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_pe...

Basically, the US 1% is much richer than other countries, but the typical American is probably less wealthy than someone in other developed countries.

weatherlite2• 4 years ago

A key thing is the dollar's status is reserve currency. It keeps its value up despite the US being a debtor nation and amassing huge debt. Without reserve currency status its anyone's guess how things will look - probably closer to Europe.

bee_rider• 4 years ago

History put us in a pretty unique position anyway, right? The list of advanced economies not blown up in WWII is pretty short, which gave us a nice lead, and probably kicked off some feedback loops.

randomdata• 4 years ago

Is the creative profession being talked about here meaningfully bound by borders? If you created a TV show, for example, all 372 million people that you mention should be potential customers. Many American productions do well in Canada, but scant few Canadian shows have succeeded in the USA.

lotsofpulp2• 4 years ago

Not necessarily borders, but I think being in the same geographic region helps. For example, Canadians interested in making TV shows might find more collaborators and funding in Los Angeles.

Technically, especially with the internet, there is no reason a Canadian show made in Canada could not be a hit in both countries. It is just the likelihoods that change.

dominotw2• 4 years ago

ppl should move to india from usa per this logic

carlmr• 4 years ago

I'm not sure if this is true. Looking at 30 million vs 330 million in population, you'd expect cultural output to come out in a ratio of 11:1.

The arts are hyper-competitive. In the US you might think you have more of a chance because you see more successes, but I doubt the ratios are that different if you also account for more failures.

Also Canada has Québec, producing your works in French will naturally decrease the possible target audience.

bombcar4• 4 years ago

Also if you become Celine Dion in Canada you should have no trouble moving to the US at that point.

But trying to become famous from the ground up in a larger country seems more difficult. Big fish in small pond theory and all.

dagmx6• 4 years ago

Covid has changed this quite a bit, though even pre covid this wasn't exactly true depending on your profession.

Pre-covid, Canada was the place to be for working in film/tv , visual effects and animation in terms of jobs. I skimmed it but the author didn't mention exactly what creative vocation they were in but given they said Nashville, it's unlikely to be in these fields.

Post Covid, success as a developer can mean working remote for a US company, and that is a huge tide change recently.

You're suddenly getting US rates, minus the currency conversion, in Canada. Better yet, you can get silicon valley rates.

granshaw• 4 years ago

You _can_, but most companies are doing location-based pay, so it certainly isn't easy

dagmx6• 4 years ago

It's true, but I'm seeing a significant change in the number of roles I'm being reached out to for, or that my friends have gotten, where the location based pay is just the currency difference +-10%.

Assuming similar high expense cities like Vancouver vs San Francisco. Other Canadian cities tend to drop off on the cost of labor scale very quickly which affects the location based pay a lot. But that's true in the US as well.

Granted that currency conversion hit is a lot. For me, it's less than the amount of time I spent commuting to work in the US, so I feel I came out in top for pay relative to my hours involved.

lhorie• 4 years ago

Even with location-based pay adjustments, big tech has had a growing presence in Canada, and it's becoming more and more realistic to land roles in the upper range of the trimodal comp distribution curve.

Location based adjustments for a USD 300k/yr IC role do make up for a huge pay ceiling increase compared to a decade ago where senior dev @ CAD 120k was a ceiling for IC roles before needing to pivot into management.

annexrichmond• 4 years ago

That’s quite an assumption that US companies are paying US rates in Canada. I can confirm that mine is paying 20% less

nicoburns• 4 years ago

20% less might still be over double local rates.

dleslie2• 4 years ago

Last I checked, here in BC the wage for a senior programmer typically ranged between 80 and 150, Canadian.

Taking a 20% discount on a SV senior salary, in American dollars, would likely be a significant raise.

msbarnett2• 4 years ago

The US company I started working for during the pandemic is paying me US rates, in USD, so I wouldn't call it an "assumption" just because you accepted a job in which you're getting paid 20% less.

Mikeb856• 4 years ago

Which is probably still >50% higher than Canadian companies pay with exchange rates factored in.

wussboy• 4 years ago

My new US based employer laughed when he saw what I was making in Canada. “So this will be quite a nice jump for you?” Yes. Yes it was.

potatolicious4• 4 years ago

Agreed - as someone who watches this market closely since I'd like to return to Canada at some point in the future, the gap has closed considerably. I would say there's still something of a gap but a) it's way way closer than it has ever been and b) it appears to still be closing.

It would not surprise me if the top employers in the Canadian market got to parity with US tech hub comp.

ttul2• 4 years ago

For sure. Amazon will pay $300K in Vancouver for a DevOps role. That’s just one data point, but I can tell you it has never looked this good by half. The pandemic changed everything.

jollybean5• 4 years ago

" Canada was the place to be for working in film/tv , visual effects and animation in terms of jobs"

No it wasn't.

That such a glib Canadian thing to say.

There are some decent jobs in those fields - but they are not even close to the kinds of jobs available in the US.

For some animation jobs - it can be a bit closer. But for anything else, no, Toronto/Van/Montreal is a 'lesser cost centre' for some labour, that's it.

Finally - most of this boils down to money. If someone can double their salary by going south they will.

dagmx6• 4 years ago

Ironically, I think your comment is a very glib American thing to say. You reduced the entire Canadian market to just being cheaper, which was perhaps true in the height of tax breaks, but that doesn't negate the size of the industry in Canada is massive.

There is significantly more VFX/animation studio work in Canada.

I feel like you both insulted my comment, then proceeded to do the thing you suggested my comment did. it feels like projection.

StayTrue2• 4 years ago

My Canadian startup was acquired by a silicon valley company. They definitely did not pay US rates. They referred to our office as Bangalore of the North.

dagmx6• 4 years ago

That's a shame. I've been part of acquisitions of Canadian companies when I was still in the Bay Area. Other than conversion rates, we didn't price Canadian companies differently than the US acquisitions.

gxh8N• 4 years ago

My girlfriend from Vancouver is moving to the states to live with me. In trying to find a job for her, whenever potential employers hear that she is Canadian, they immediately want to offer remote for her from Vancouver at the local salary rate, which is half what it would be in the US.

lewisl90292• 4 years ago

Uh... I have a less rosy picture of the situation.

To brain drain Canadian talent, US companies used to need to convince people to physically move to a different country, a rather tall order, but even then people were leaving in droves.

Now, they can brain drain Canadian talent with practically 0 barriers through remote work.

Unless Canadian employers are willing and able to adapt quickly and start offering truly globally competitive salaries (and historically they have proven to be utterly incapable of this), I think this is game over.

dagmx6• 4 years ago

That's a fair view on it if you're viewing it from a domestic growth. I was viewing it from the perspective of an employee. Many of these companies are opening up proper Canadian divisions however, though it does price out many Canadian headquartered companies in the process.

coastflow2• 4 years ago

Note that the article focuses on the ability to find work in the creative and media industry, versus the technology industry.

In addition, though it captures a feeling that many Canadians have, I wish it were backed by statistics and data to support the assertion in the headline.

I also thought that the following passage was not strongly supported:

”WHEN I GOT BACK to Toronto, I understood in a new, tactile way that I might one day leave it. Toronto’s energy flows endlessly toward the impulse to win, to never stop working until you hit your head on the visible ceiling. Then you work some more. New York has that vibe too, maybe even more so, but I feel like everyone’s more self-aware about it. And, more importantly, there’s no ceiling. You can try to dominate the world and touch the clouds, as foolish as it would be.”

I believe the “impulse to win” is more of a function of who you associate with and your own attitudes, versus the city you happen to be located in.

There is a grain of truth (people who move to New York City are often self-selected to be ambitious), but it wasn’t convincing to assert that the people of Toronto are chasing promotions as part of a corporate ladder until they hit a ceiling.

Counter-examples are abound in Toronto. Some people start their own companies, others find enjoyment outside of work (e.g. family and friends), and others are comfortable with their position in life (e.g. small business owner of a bakery).

People in Toronto also come from vastly different cultural backgrounds as the city is one of the most culturally diverse (over half as part of an ethnic minority as of 2016) in the world [0], so it is a leap to assert that everyone shares similar beliefs about work just because they live in the city.

The author’s assertion is an example of the “false-consensus effect,” where people mistakenly believe that others in a particular context must share their beliefs [1]. This is why studies with statistical analyses are important.

”But, in practice, that inevitability now felt freeing. I guess I got tired of repressing my sense of possibility.”

You don’t need to move to New York City to feel a sense of possibility and work toward your goals.

[0] (PDF): https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/99b4-TOHea...

[1] https://www.nngroup.com/articles/false-consensus/

potatolicious4• 4 years ago

I think there's an unsaid thing here where the author means "money" when they say "possibility". The range of possible financial outcomes in the US is wider, there's definitely a lot more investor money flowing - both in technology and the arts. There's a type of runaway wealth that's achievable in the US that seems far less likely in Canada.

Which is the general theme of financial outcomes in the US: the highs are higher... and the lows are lower. It's the land of possibility and also the land of destitution and desperation. We contain multitudes, I suppose.

Being in tech and not the arts I can't say I know exactly what the author is describing - but certainly the tech "brain drain" of Canadians to the US has been overwhelmingly about money as opposed to the vague notion of "possibility". It seems valuable to not mince words about that - it's fine to want the kinds of outlier financial outcomes that the US makes possible and that's exceedingly rare in Canada, but one ought not conflate it with some other higher-minded notion.

jollybean5• 4 years ago

As a Torontonian, I would say this is 'Canadian Cope'

'But we have diversity!'

As if NY, or America somehow lacks there, or that is even hugely material.

You can 'do ok' in Toronto, it's a good city. You can 'fee' whatever you want, that's up to you.

But it's nary impossible to do anything world class - and that's where the surpluses are.

The critical mass, the salary base, the talent, the lack of elite - almost none of it is there.

There are 5x more, 'Amazing Engineers' in little Tel Aviv.

Tiny little Sweden, with only 10M people (a bit less than 2x Toronto) - makes all sorts of sophisticated gear for export - Canada makes hardly any.

And this is how Canada is constructed: to be a suburb of the world - where polite people consume foreign products. We don't 'make' or 'design' anything.

Toronto is a very 'Civic City' - which is great for citizens - it actually makes a lot of American cities look kind of crappy in comparison - but it's the lack of a proper elite that's the problem, which applies to a small class of people.

Almost everyone I know has moved to the US for opportunity, and the draining of the 'talent class' will have this effect on a nation.

FYI that includes talented migrants as well: my top Canadian migrant colleagues (all from India), are now living in the US. Canada brings in 'migrants with degrees' as 'tech workers' but the 'talent' (either migrant or local) that create the opportunities leave for the US.

It's a serious problem.

This has a lot to do with 'salary' and I noticed this problem was very different when the dollar was at parity in the 2000s. With monetary incentives levelled out, the problem is not nearly as bad.

Our leaders do this on purpose. The Ontario Minister of Industry (this is several years back), proclaimed as Cisco was coming to Toronto (partly for the cheap workers), that Toronto has 'great workers at a discount' and that they would do 'everything in their power to keep it that way!'. Literally saying that their 'industrial policy' was to keep us poorer than Americans, so that American companies would have 'satellite offices' here.

Canada is a 'Small Open Economy' next to a 'Large Open Economy' (in economic terms) and that tends to create this kind of outcome, when thought of in secular terms.

But a place like Sweden - they take a different approach, and focus on key industries and 'punch above their weight' - meaning, rather than 'just being a place for bigger country satellite offices' - they are able to make their own mark. A lot of this comes from past national strategies, i.e. cars, airplanes, weapons systems - companies left over from the war era, and even further back, but it provides their people with a 'local industrial base' that Canada does not have.

We really need a 'National Strategy' to deal with this, but it's not likely to happen because none of our leaders are particularly aware of the issue, nor do they have the talent, wherewithal or ability to do something about it, let alone grasp it. And to be fair it's a really difficult problem.

Also - this is the 'EU disease' as well. The way the EU is structured, particularly with the Euro as a 'hard currency' - means slack labour will be taken up in Germany, and lost in other areas. Italy has vast, vast foundations in 'complicated things' and cultural foundation, they'll be fine. But a place like Poland? Well - it'll lose it's talent - at the very same time that standard of living is actually increasing rapidly (i.e. good for citizens), there is just no 'BOSCH' or 'BMD' or 'SIEMENS' etc for the talent to go and make a difference. For that, Deutshland. Or UK, Netherlands etc..

deanCommie• 4 years ago

Canada and Sweden have almost identical GDP per capita: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...

DoreenMichele5• 4 years ago

Working in Canadian journalism, I’d often hear other editors reference the mythical former colleagues who had moved to New York—America, in this context, is always New York.

Lots of Americans dream of either LA or New York, depending on their industry. I imagine in Europe, it's probably Paris and London that draws both French/British and foreigners.

Frank Sinatra had a song called New York, New York and one of the lines is "If I can make it there, I'll make it anywhere."

It's sort of inevitable that the largest city in the region draws talent and ambition and this gravity pool does not respect international borders. Though I wish we did a better job of fostering diversity of views from other places even within the US.

It's something I've lamented before: Even Americans get kind of brainwashed that their local culture is inferior and everything is better in New York (and California) because that's where so much of our popular media originates and is set.

giorgioz5• 4 years ago

For software engineers in Europe is Dublin, Berlin and London. I'm one of the few that made it all the way to California. I've been always the guy trying to push fellow software engineers to go to the USA. Even though I lasted in the Silicon Valley only a year before quitting my full-time job and becoming a digital nomad and boostrapping my own SaaS company https://www.waiterio.com

DoreenMichele5• 4 years ago

Thank you. For software, it's San Francisco, not Los Angeles, that is Mecca in the US.

mettamage3• 4 years ago

If you have any tips to get to the US as a European, I’d be happy to hear them.

If needed, my email is in my profile.

ascar7• 4 years ago

My dream was to go to California too when I started studying computer science. Then I learned about employment laws, health care and social security in the US. As a person that had close experience how important these things are when things go wrong even though you might've been a millionaire, I feel pretty confident with my choice to stay in Europe.

To anyone that thinks these things don't matter if you earn enough money and safe a fair amount, I wish that they and especially their children never get into a situation that shows them how naive that thought was.

UweSchmidt7• 4 years ago

Never heard anyone in Germany dreaming of going to Berlin to "make it" as a software engineer, as if there was a mythical Silicon Valley-like atmosphere of opportunity. Correct me if I'm wrong and I'm missing out!

You can go for that Berlin lifestyle and to work in some neat startups (as an underpaid employee) but that's not the canonical definition for succcess imo.

tgv• 4 years ago

What's so attractive about Dublin, Berlin and London? I've never seen them as remotely interesting for devs. London is for sleazy bankers.

coastflow2• 4 years ago

” Even Americans get kind of brainwashed that their local culture is inferior and everything is better in New York (and California) because that's where so much of our popular media originates and is set.”

For additional evidence, the setting of most of “Breaking Bad” (now continuing as “Better Call Saul”) in Albuquerque, New Mexico led to meaningful economic benefits for people living there, such as increased tourism (from https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/envelope/la-xpm-2013-a...).

thebean11• 4 years ago

That’s surprising, watching those shows did not make me interested in going even a little bit

purple_ferret• 4 years ago

The reality is the networking and opportunities in journalism are far superior in New York. There's no better place for advancement than the NYTimes IMO.

Journalism is a hustle.

openknot• 4 years ago

I strongly agree with your main assertion. I heard several professional journalists recommend "networking" and "effective self-promotion and marketing" to get internships with well-known companies to add to your as the main advice for new journalists, versus focusing their advice on how to do quality reporting to produce good work samples.

However, I speculate that The Wall Street Journal and The Washington Post are equivalently great places for advancement for reporters (if only because the NYTimes's new executive editor/editor-in-chief spent much of his career with the WSJ).

samatman• 4 years ago

New York, New York is a film by Martin Scorcese, with a famous song composed by John Kander and Fred Ebb, and performed by Liza Minnelli.

I will grant you that Sinatra's performance is strong, distinctive, even a bit better known. But he stands behind several eminent artists on this one.

dylan604• 4 years ago

Even Americans get kind of brainwashed that their local culture is inferior

In small town USA, the local culture usually is inferior. The local culture tends to be very monoculture. It's the larger cities where the culture tends to be more diverse. Getting out of small town into the nearest larger town opened me up to a hell of a lot more than the people that never left. However, even in that larger town, it's still limited. Yes, I eventually went to the west coast to have even more multi-cultural experience. Later, I even got to finally start travelling internationally to expand that multi-cultural experience further.

Maybe it's a broad brush to paint with, but my local culture 100% was inferior, but I imagine it's not unique

cinntaile2• 4 years ago

Small town culture is a thing in Europe as well! I don't know if it's inferior but it's certainly different from the culture in a bigger city.

throwaway8943455• 4 years ago

Eh, I've lived in small towns and major cities. One isn't categorically better than the other, they're just different. Your values align better with city life, but that doesn't make other cultures inferior (nor are you superior to the people who prefer them). I certainly appreciate the diversity of larger cities and small towns certainly aren't for me, but I can also appreciate having a functional municipal government, low crime rates, low poverty rates, dramatically less antisocial behavior, strong values / decency / civility, a simpler way of life, etc.

refurb3• 4 years ago

Right, but the fun part is an American from a big city like New York will go visit some quaint rural town in a foreign country and admire the culture. Despite the locals feeling it's inferior and the big city 200 km away has superior culture.

Just goes to show it's all subjective.

historia_novae• 4 years ago

I imagine in Europe, it's probably Paris and London that draws both French/British and foreigners.

Lol no. Most people go in Paris because it's where they can found a job opportunity or for studies but wouldn't have otherwise, and a whole part of the country (which I belong too) view it has a place to actively avoid for living. And I can't think of anyone that's hated more outside of Paris than Parisians.

rco8786• 4 years ago

Ha. You’re proving OP’s point without realizing it. Replace “Paris” with “New York City” and your statements are equally true.

kcb• 4 years ago

Some people would say this exact sentence about New York.

PragmaticPulp• 4 years ago

It's something I've lamented before: Even Americans get kind of brainwashed that their local culture is inferior and everything is better in New York (and California) because that's where so much of our popular media originates and is set.

In the context of finding the best jobs at the top of an industry, key locations like New York, Los Angeles, the Bay Area, Seattle, and others depending on the industry really are significantly better.

That doesn’t mean you can’t find okay or good jobs in other locations, but if you’re in journalism then it’s far, far easier to get a top job by moving to New York or a small number of other cities than it is by moving to some random small city somewhere.

In this context, if someone is going through all the trouble of emigrating to a different country for their career (a huge amount of work) then it only makes sense to choose the locations best suited for that work. It wouldn’t even begin to make sense if someone uprooted their entire life, switched countries, and then chose Alabama as their home base to launch their national journalism career.

It’s definitely not because people are being swayed by Sinatra songs or other media. These cities really are epicenters for certain industries.

ramesh312• 4 years ago

Even Americans get kind of brainwashed that their local culture is inferior and everything is better in New York (and California) because that's where so much of our popular media originates and is set.

Because it mostly is. The vast swaths of the inland US are cultural black holes of consumption. There is simply not enough population density, diversity, or opportunity to generate anything meaningful. It's probably hard for Europeans to understand that in the US, I can get in a car, drive a thousand miles in any direction to a new city, get out, and find the exact identical built environment around me, inhabited by the exact same people, speaking the exact same language and accent, wearing the same clothes, eating the same food, driving the same cars, listening to the same music, and practicing the same religion.

weatherlite2• 4 years ago

Finland and Japan are much more homogenous than the U.S or Canada. Does it make them worse places? In some ways yes and others no. Diversity in itself does not mean much. Yugoslavia was super diverse.

rufus_foreman• 4 years ago

> the exact same people, speaking the exact same language and accent, wearing the same clothes, eating the same food, driving the same cars, listening to the same music, and practicing the same religion.

That's called a nation.

throwaway8943455• 4 years ago

It's something I've lamented before: Even Americans get kind of brainwashed that their local culture is inferior and everything is better in New York (and California) because that's where so much of our popular media originates and is set.

This reminds me of how Americans are brainwashed into believing that European culture is dramatically better than American culture (Americans are dumb, fat, ignorant, and uncultured while Europeans are intelligent and enlightened). This seems to have eased as our world has become more interconnected, but about a decade ago (before living abroad), this was definitely the impression I had from American media. I'm sure there's some truth to it in certain statistical abstractions, but in general there's enormous variety in America that a comparison of medians doesn't capture. Moreover, there's a lot of cherry-picking that goes on in those comparisons: for instance, I'd never heard any discussion about the significant (~30-50%) discrepancy in take-home (i.e., after tax, healthcare, pension/retirement, etc) income for professionals nor the high cost of living in Europe. Certainly nothing that could feasibly justify stereotypes of American inferiority.

cinntaile2• 4 years ago

I don't get the link between income and culture here? It feels like you should have ended your post before bringing that up.

soperj• 4 years ago

discrepancy in take-home

I think that has more to do with the discrepancy in time at work though as well. If I make half as much as someone working 60-70 hour weeks (as someone who works 35 hour weeks), that makes a lot of sense.

jfk13• 4 years ago

I imagine in Europe, it's probably Paris and London that draws both French/British and foreigners.

For some people, I'm sure, but don't assume everyone wants the same kind of life.

I could live in London if I chose, and there are some things about it that would be attractive, but on balance I'm far happier with my small-town life 50 miles away.

sluijs• 4 years ago

I imagine in Europe, it's probably Paris and London that draws both French/British and foreigners.

This is an interesting question. In my experience, there is no European equivalent. Relocating within the EU might be relatively easy visa-wise, but there is often a language barrier and a different culture you’d have to adjust to, which prevents the formation of industry-specific hubs. Depending on the country you’re from, you’ll likely say that your capital is some kind of hub for industry _xyz_, but if you ask citizens from another country in the EU the same question, I wouldn’t be surprised if you’d get different answers.

DoreenMichele5• 4 years ago

The US is a mostly monolingual "country of countries." They are called states because they were envisioned as separate nation-states who shared an army for purposes of self defense.

The original charter was a sort that historically never really worked anywhere and it was failing to provide funds, iirc, for paying for defense. So they gave the federal government more teeth and it became some weird beast of a sort the world had not seen before.

And here we are, with this strange beast still behaving strangely all these years later.

userulluipeste• 4 years ago

It's true that there is no similar city advertisement anywhere in Europe, at least nothing on a level close to New York. Funnily, that doesn't prevent however some of the employers to sometimes try presenting their locations (say, Amsterdam or Zürich) in the list of benefits.

"Depending on the country you’re from, you’ll likely say that your capital is some kind of hub for industry _xyz_"

To narrow it down a bit, count only the places having a significant population. It's harder to make that claim for capitals like Ljubljana or Reykjavík.

ck425• 4 years ago

I imagine in Europe, it's probably Paris and London that draws both French/British and foreigners.

It's not as true in the UK. The salary differential between a medium city and The City isn't as big so while there's definitely more opportunity and higher pay in London it's wiped out by higher costs of living. Lots of people still move there because they like the lifestyle or to climb the ladder faster but if you're content to be a solid well paid professional there are lots of smaller (but not necessarily small) cities with plenty of opportunity, better work life balance and affordable housing.

simonebrunozzi• 4 years ago

Ok, but then why not Toronto?

otoburb2• 4 years ago

Since New York City has more opportunities and larger scale compared to Toronto the question boils down to a career efficiency and potential future leverage.

If you're going to have to relocate and bust your ass working anyway, then why not take the shot at making a larger impact and trying to reap more rewards in the larger and more prosperous city.

wolverine8768• 4 years ago

Lots of Americans dream of either LA or New York, depending on their industry.

I was going to post the same thing. What the OP describes is the same in much of the US.

Even Americans get kind of brainwashed that their local culture is inferior and everything is better in New York (and California) because that's where so much of our popular media originates and is set.

There is something to it: People who are ambitious, confident, and talented tend to want to be around similar people - it gives them opportunities to do more - and around other resources such as financing, leading organizations in their industry, etc. The motivated ones tend to go to NY, etc. So the talent level and resources are generally greater. Seriously, what would you tell a highly ambitious, talented coder in a small town in the middle of Nebraska? Stay where you are? Even in the days of remote work, that seems insane.

Though I wish we did a better job of fostering diversity of views from other places even within the US.

Agreed.

DoreenMichele5• 4 years ago

Seriously, what would you tell a highly ambitious, talented coder in a small town in the middle of Nebraska? Stay where you are?

I'm trying to make a different point than people seem to think I'm making. I have absolutely no idea how to clarify that in comments here. I'm trying to sort my thoughts on the topic elsewhere, which likely means a blog post that likely won't be seen by over 30 people.

throwoutway• 4 years ago

Ralph Waldo Emerson called New York City "a sucked orange" (He did not like NY). Once I’ve visited it, I also did not like it. I don’t get the appeal

causality02• 4 years ago

It's easy to become irritated at Canadians for their never-ending holier-than-thou attitude toward America and Americans, to wish they'd piss off and find a culture that isn't based around not being you, but if you think a little more about it you'll find that anger is misguided. Canadians are in an uncomfortable position. Existing comfortably requires a certain degree of ignoring your own flaws. Canadians, possibly more than anyone else in the world, are not afforded that luxury. They have a giant mirror next door that shows them a people just like them with their own naked flaws without the ability to gloss over them. This kind of constant unconsensual reminder is stressful and must breed tremendous resentment. So the next time you're annoyed at being talked down to by a Canadian, remember that it's us who deprived them of the ability to lie to themselves about everything but the ways in which they differ from Americans.

quest88• 4 years ago

What are you saying

petesergeant• 4 years ago

I’m British, married to a Canadian, and you need to be clear that your comment is entirely about you and your insecurities and not about Canadians.

osigurdson6• 4 years ago

I think it is really only governments that are interested in perpetuating the narrative that the US and Canada are very different. They concern themselves with Canadian identity and culture (even via direct investment) while every Canadian that I know could care less about these things. No one I know is particularly worried about Anne of Green Gables going out of style.

0xRusty• 4 years ago

As a Brit living in Canada and working in the visual effects and creative industries for the last 9 years, your point about their culture being all about "not being you" really hits the mark. Canadians think they're the country the whole world loves and wants to be. The reality is they're irrelevant on the world stage. Culturally they offer the world very little. There are basically 3 maybe 4 cities. With the exception of Montreal (which has some history and culture to call its own) they all spout "diversity being our strength" - this leaves cities like Toronto and Vancouver as the most soulless, boring places I've ever had the misfortune to live in. They have no culture of their own, instead borrowing from everyone else. There is no "Toronto food", "Toronto music", "Toronto scene". Politically they're led by a smug, manipulating, self serving narssisist who calls you a racist and a Nazi yet wears blackface and suspends civil liberties, rushing through emergency war powers to deal with a protest. The healthcare system, as the last two years have shown, are completely inadequate. Quebec was locked down from 8pm while the sun was still shining for fear of overloading a health system they have done nothing to improve since the start of the pandemic. I'm counting down the days until I leave for America and never look back.

xipho• 4 years ago

The healthcare system, as the last two years have shown, are completely inadequate.

If by "inadequate" you mean "can be improved", then of course, all systems can be improved. If you mean it is fundamentally unsound then I feel this is completely unfounded. My family has had 3 seperate health-care events during their lifetime, the latest cancer related in an COIVD-overloaded emergency setting, that would have bankrupt us multiple times over had we been in the US (and yes, they are all remarkably healthy individuals, no diabetes, etc. in general). Even in the latest case the health-care we recieved was amazing, over a month of hospitalizatoin, for which we will see ZERO bills. The latest treatement, monoclonal antibody based chemo, ZERO bills. Was there stress? Yes, but I can hardly imagine a better overall outcome.

If you are rich, in Canada, you can get whatever healthcare you want, just like in the US. If you are middle-class or poorer, the difference betweent the two systems is so vastly different it's mind-boggling.

MAGZine• 4 years ago

Culturally they offer the world very little.

what do you mean? you say that you work in vfx but do canadians creating television and movies not count as "offering something culturally?" Not to mention the long list of actors and famous musicians/bands from canada. more specifically, I wonder what you consider to be important cultural contributions.

anyhow, your prognosis of 'borrowing from everyone else' is factually correct. canada is a land of immigrants. though, if you don't think toronto has a specific toronto food culture, you'll be disappointed when all you find is the usual gaumet of international food options in new york and la. unless if you want to tell me that italian food is somehow a cultural contribution of new york.

cardy312• 4 years ago

As a Canadian I disagree with most of this. Everyone I’ve heard whine about being called a racist or a Nazi seems to in the next breath say something racist or at least homophobic. So you might want to take a look in the mirror if you’re mad about being called those things.

Also, if you want the healthcare system to improve then are you supporting parties and candidates that want to improve it? Or do you just want the Conservatives in power because they don’t call you a Nazi?

middleclick3• 4 years ago

Trudeau called people who were waving Nazi flags Nazis. What else do you think he should have called them? Please point out specific instances in which he labelled people as Nazis other than those ... waving Nazi flags?

Also, there is no "Montreal food" as much as there is no "Toronto food". I don't know why you think there is a distinction.

The healthcare you seem to be upset about is years long effort by the conservative governments to gut it down including the current conservative government in Ontario. And yet, not a word from you about that?

Good luck for your move to US but I think you have some other things you are unhappy about and I don't think moving countries is going to help.

osigurdson6• 4 years ago

Your comments regarding our current political leadership are mostly accurate. It feels like we were living in some kind of alternate reality in some ways. The pandemic seemed to cause the worst sides of us all to come out while our government really fanned the flames. It really is inexcusable in my opinion.

I think Canada is better if you are an outdoorsy type person. Access to nature is really the primary appeal of the country in my opinion. Of course the US is awesome as well in this regard.

ramesh312• 4 years ago

Americans respect the Canadian aesthetic. Stan Rogers embodied this perfectly [0]. Be Canadian and share your authentic Canadianess with us. Don't try to be American.

[0] https://youtu.be/vdaaPl_kZpw?t=1728

imilk• 4 years ago

Damn Jim Lahey had a nice voice before he hit the booze

sixstringtheory• 4 years ago

You joke but John Dunsworth I think also nicely embodies the spirit I see parent getting at: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3mcQfP8k51s

tonetheman• 4 years ago

I want to do the opposite. Get away from America. Someone give me a job. I am an ubernerd!

vmception• 4 years ago

Make money in America and dip out. Its a privileged starting point for doing just that.

strictfp2• 4 years ago

Why move to America when Canada's already in America? ;P

chitowneats• 4 years ago

Found the Argentinian.

AlchemistCamp2• 4 years ago

Canada is in "The Americas", but not in "America" ;)

NGRhodes• 4 years ago

Confused European here, I thought "America" was the same as "The Americas"

strictfp2• 4 years ago

I think that's a colloquialism, according to several dictionaries "America" can nean the two continents.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/america

spoonjim• 4 years ago

America still does “larger than life” better than anyone. If you want to be the biggest the baddest the richest the quickest the Sun God above mere mortals — this is the country to be in.

mrkramer2• 4 years ago

More ambitious people always move to more developed countries in a search of better life whether it means better education, better job opportunities(greater salary), better career path etc.

Btw when somebody compares Canada to US I always remember the Canada rant from Shameless:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJOO9I9kvwo

smt88• 4 years ago

people always move to more developed countries in a search of better life whether it means better education, better job opportunities(greater salary), better career path etc.

By most measures, Canada is more developed than the US.

Also, this article is about people who work in the arts, like film and music. It has nothing to do with seeking better education.

mrkramer2• 4 years ago

By most measures, Canada is more developed than the US.

By what measures? Social benefits? I was speaking about industry and technology not about health care accessibility or whatever. By that criteria you can call Sweden more developed than US.

The majority of the world's most valuable companies are from US[0] so private sector wise US is superior.

[0] https://companiesmarketcap.com/

fartcannon2• 4 years ago

I didn't watch the show so I don't known the context. Am I supposed to side with him or Canada?

UweSchmidt7• 4 years ago

A very 2022 instinct, maybe a sign of our hyper-polarized times, trying to find the side you're supposed to side with even for an obscure Youtube video.

fguerraz• 4 years ago

[European who only read the title]

Isn't Canada already in America?

peyton3• 4 years ago

I believe it’s in North America.

bombcar4• 4 years ago

Strange religion ;)

But people refer to the USA as “America” even though Canada and Mexico are also in “North America” and all the countries in South America exist also.

Even so, nobody would refer to someone from those countries as “American”.

WalterBright5• 4 years ago

Whether "America" refers to the continent or the United States depends on the context.

umanwizard4• 4 years ago

The set of continents is arbitrary.

Some cultures (arbitrarily) recognize North America and South America as separate continents, whereas some others consider them to be one continent, called America.

Among many of the cultures that recognize two continents, the term “America” has drifted in meaning over time to colloquially refer to the USA. That is the sense in which “America” was meant in this headline.

sgjohnson3• 4 years ago

the term “America” has drifted in meaning over time to colloquially refer to the USA.

Only in English speaking and non-American countries.

All of the Spanish speaking American countries are happy to call what everyone else calls "americans" "united-stateans", i.e. "estadounidense" in Spanish. Because of course it's stupid to call gringos "american", when the entire continent is called America.

This is also happening to Europe, in a lesser extent (for 2 reasons, first of which is that the EU isn't a country, and the 2nd is that most of European countries are in the EU). "European" is more often used to refer to an inhabitant of the European Union than it's used to refer to an inhabitant of Europe, the continent.

slowmovintarget• 4 years ago

To quote Homer Simpson "Pfft... Canada is just America Jr."

More seriously, if you weren't joking, Canada is in North America, the continent. America, the country, is the informal name of the United States of America.

sonicggg4• 4 years ago

There are two separate continents: "North America" and "South America", which are more separate than Asia is to Europe. Sometimes people refer to them as "The Americas", in plural.

WalterBright5• 4 years ago

In any profession, if you want to be very successful, America is your best shot.

But you can't have both cradle to grave security, and the opportunity for success. You can see that in the endless Progressive proposals to erase American billionaires in exchange for more security.

bombcar4• 4 years ago

There’s also something to not aiming to be very successful - or borrowing success and bringing it back.

But if you move to the US for ten/twenty years to amass a pile of success and money, it may be very hard to move back afterwards.

benditlike• 4 years ago

What would make it hard to return to Canada after twenty years?

mmanfrin• 4 years ago

Progressive proposals to erase American billionaires in exchange for more security.

[citation needed]

WalterBright5• 4 years ago

https://twitter.com/berniesanders/status/1176481898685710337

djenendik3• 4 years ago

i might not be at the top of my profession, but i have a better life here in canada than i had in the us. ymmv.

wolverine8768• 4 years ago

In any profession, if you want to be very successful, America is your best shot.

Perhaps a bit exaggerated, but the big market helps a lot and also has a network affect, attracting other talented people and resources from around the world.

But you can't have both cradle to grave security, and the opportunity for success.

People in many countries provide much more security (and investment, such as education) to themselves than the US and also plenty of success, including billionaires, including Canada. The main difference is that the US has a much larger market.

Billionaires are of course a tiny portion of the population and not representative of the availability of success. For non-billionaires, many of whom can't afford an education or healthcare, success might be futher away because the Americans don't invest as much in themselves.

Progressive proposals to erase American billionaires in exchange for more security

What does that mean, specifically?

WalterBright5• 4 years ago

Bernie Sanders, for instance:

https://twitter.com/berniesanders/status/1176481898685710337

The American market is global.

WalterBright5• 4 years ago

Have you ever wondered why the FAANG companies are all American? Why Elon Musk left South Africa to come to America? Why millions of people are trying to get over the border into the US?

jacques_chester2• 4 years ago

It's the same for Australians.

For other Australians reading this and thinking you can't get into the US, you absolutely can. Look up the E3 visa. It's easy to get because it's reserved entirely for Australian citizens.

jbarham• 4 years ago

Yeah, but can you get a green card on an E3?

jacques_chester2• 4 years ago

Yes. I have.

cardy312• 4 years ago

This is definitely true for the creative industry.

I used to be a professional musician, and now work at a well known tech company doing Production Engineering. I work remotely in Canada. I watched lots of creative friends move to New York and LA because that is where you have to go to really make it in almost cases.

I don’t think success in tech means moving to the US though. Lots of US companies will pay good salaries to remote Canadians. I live in Canada not because I don’t have the option to go work in the US but because the trade offs of living in the USA aren’t worth the increased salary to me.

UweSchmidt7• 4 years ago

"You’re taught to value art that expresses a distinctly Canadian point of view. You’re taught that such a thing as a Canadian point of view exists at all and that there’s a whole set of aesthetic shorthand to convey it."

Anyone got any examples for that the author might mean with that?

youeseh• 4 years ago

If there's anything distinctly Canadian - truly, than the US, is that it is officially bilingual. Of course, almost no one in English speaking Canada can speak a lick of French because of how awful French language classes are - you can get an A yet remember nothing.

UweSchmidt7• 4 years ago

I mean what would be an example of art that would (naturally or contrived) express a Canadian point of view? What does an aesthetic shorthand for it look like?

drpgq• 4 years ago

The Great White North sketches on SCTV?

3qz2• 4 years ago

Canadians can’t afford to live anywhere that has decent jobs if they have to pay current prices. Moving to the states is the only choice most young Canadians have.

Mikeb856• 4 years ago

There is no future in Canada. Our GDP per capita in USD has gone down 20% in the last decade [1]. We're one of the most expensive places to live and real earnings have gone down in the last decade.

Almost everyone I know is already gone, either to the US or Europe. If you're educated, the sheer amount of money you'll make in the US makes up for things like lack of socialized healthcare. In Europe, you get all the same socialized benefits (better actually), a similar to better income but housing and various day to day items cost much, much less.

We're basically a petro-state that only incidentally has other industries because we're a low-cost alternative to American labour.

[1] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location...

divbzero• 4 years ago

Our GDP per capita in USD has gone down 20% in the last decade [1].

It appears that much of this is due to CAD depreciating relative to USD over the last 10 years [2]. I suppose this is relevant for Canadians buying imported goods, but could be less relevant for local goods.

[2] https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=CAD&to=USD&view=10Y

Mikeb856• 4 years ago

All our goods are imported since we make hardly anything. The few consumer products Canadians do make generally get exported to countries with higher incomes or as luxury goods. So it definitely matters.

sonicggg4• 4 years ago

Problem is that, compared to US,Canada is not very self-sufficient. The average Canadian imports a lot of stuff. Kind of limited what you can grow in this frozen wasteland.

osigurdson6• 4 years ago

Calling Canada a petro-state is inaccurate at ~6% of GDP. Perhaps you mean more generally a resource based economy which is largely true.

Mikeb856• 4 years ago

Our #1 export is petroleum products by a very wide margin...

michael1999• 4 years ago

As a fraction of the economy it is small, but it is large as a fraction of foreign trade, and volatile.

Oil prices explain most of the moves in CAD/USD that aren't explained by diverging interest rates.

- https://worthwhile.typepad.com/worthwhile_canadian_initi/201... - https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-you-can-go-...

earthbee• 4 years ago

If you look at the GDP per capita graph for most developed countries it has a similar shape

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=canada+gdp+per+capita%2...

Mikeb856• 4 years ago

Ours is still the biggest decline. You're also missing the US which is a different story altogether... But even conceding that point, then compare to housing costs:

https://data.oecd.org/chart/6Ikm

And consider that housing costs for a desirable Canadian location (Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa) are much higher than that chart. And that the middle of nowhere in any of those European countries is still liveable whereas the middle of nowhere in Canada potentially means thousands of KMs away.

And that's not touching on other COL metrics where Canada is uniquely bad.

steve_adams_863• 4 years ago

Yes - of my high school group of friends, far more than half moved to nearby Vancouver initially and since then, half have left the country for the USA or Europe. These are almost all educated people, so it’s brain drain.

I worry a lot about the future my kids have in this country. I don’t tell people that often, but my spider senses are tingling like crazy.

djenendik3• 4 years ago

Just moved back with mit degree. Couldn't wait to leave the us. Anecdata.

mistermann• 4 years ago

I seems plausible to me that a self-reinforcing death spiral could be well underway.

sonicggg4• 4 years ago

The worst side of Canada is what people have done to real estate. This is going to bite back the country eventually, it's really just a giant Ponzi scheme now.

They kind of forget that most well educated Canadians can easily go south of the border for better opportunities, cheaper housing and surprisingly better health care.

wolverine8768• 4 years ago

surprisingly better health care

What do you mean by that? The problems with US healthcare are well known.

throw0101a• 4 years ago

There is no future in Canada. Our GDP per capita in USD has gone down 20% in the last decade [1].

Looking at GDP per hour worked, Canada is higher than the US:

* https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm

Average hours worked in the US is 1767, while CA is 1644:

* https://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS

Perhaps we Canadians have simply decided not to kill ourselves as much chasing the almighty dollar / loonie, and that's why we make "less" money in total.

lewisl90292• 4 years ago

Canadian tech employers have been completely myopic for decades, only willing to compete in salary against other local tech employers, while anyone who's actually any good can make 2x+ within a 3 hour drive south. This resulted in a ton of brain drain in the form of people physically moving out of Canada and into the US. (I was one of those people who were brain drained away.)

Now people can make 2x+ within the comfort of their own homes, making it even easier for US tech companies to brain drain talent away from Canadian companies. Will that finally force them to change their ways or are they going to keep scraping the bottom of the ever depleting barrel?

I honestly don't have a very positive outlook given the history here, but would love to be proven wrong.

hawk_• 4 years ago

Who are these Canadian tech employers? Do they then sub contract work from other international companies or just targeting local (canadian) work?

mariuslandon• 4 years ago

Canada

gdilla• 4 years ago

I live in Canada so I can worry less about school shootings and white supremacist terrorism. Yes it exists in Canada but the risk is much less.

mbg721• 4 years ago

The risk is very close to zero in America too. There's a lot more worrying, though.

francisperron• 4 years ago

Stop saying America for "United Stated of America", America is the continent... dumbass.

Success in Canada means moving to America

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