Immigrant entrepreneur arrested to meet quotas

http://www.tenthcave.com/2011/10/plea-for-help.html

by deadmansshoes • 15 years ago

151 174 15 years ago

And reactions at http://mapbrief.com/2011/10/19/political-hypocrisy-economic-... and http://blog.entchev.com/2011/10/17/a-call-for-help-for-atana...

0x129• 15 years ago

US immigration sucks. What bugs me most is that the US is founded on immigrants, so it's basically the descendents of one group of immigrants telling those 'late to the party' that they can't enter, or in this case that they have to leave.

To do this to someone that has been there for a lifetime and then some is ridiculous.

Too many lives have already been wrecked to satisfy little minds and to get stamps on pieces of paper.

Immigrants like these are the ones a country should hope to receive, not to turn away at some arbitrary future date for bureaucratic reasons only.

Disgusting.

cperciva• 15 years ago

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see anything in the linked post about "meeting quotas".

Can we please avoid making headlines unnecessarily hysterical?

0x129• 15 years ago

I think that referred to this bit:

"By coincidence, Frontline this week is broadcasting a feature, ‘Lost in Detention’, outlining the increasingly aggressive measures to deport immigrants. The key clip begins at the 17-minute mark outlining the arbitrary goal of 400,000 deportations, including “Non-criminal removals”. "

From http://mapbrief.com/2011/10/19/political-hypocrisy-economic-...

nkassis• 15 years ago

What does a Non-criminal removal mean? Like who would be in that category? Just people who's visa expired?

barrkel• 15 years ago

Case summary here: http://www.ca3.uscourts.gov/opinarch/104369np.pdf

It seems clear to me that at this point he is an economic migrant, rather than a refugee; and as that was the basis of his initial plea to stay (i.e. he was seeking asylum from persecution), the generally brutal machinery of bureaucracy is ejecting him from the country. (Apparently, credible death threats don't constitute sufficient grounds for asylum. But I don't think he is credibly at risk, even of that.)

It's very harsh on him and his wife, uprooting them from their community, etc., but on the other hand he ought to have little difficulty finding work and living anywhere he chooses in the EU.

Frankly, I don't think the US deserves him.

tallanvor• 15 years ago

Well, no, credible death threats aren't sufficient grounds - they would have to show that not only are the death threats credible, but that the government is purposefully not protecting him from the threats.

I can understand that he feel's the US is his home and he shouldn't have to leave, but he's basically been trying to play the system for 20 years. He was told what he had to do to get a visa legally, but he wasn't willing to do so.

eis3• 15 years ago

As a kid I always wanted to go to the USA, maybe even live there. So many things to see, the business opportunities and the propagated freedom were very attractive.

During the last decade though, the USA have done a fantastic job of eradicating every bit of what was left of this dream. Nowerdays all you hear from them is how Hollywood is destroying little guys' lifes for downloading a bunch of songs, exporting those policies with force to other countries, insane financial schemes and starting several wars.

Right now I am planning a trip to Japan. A country, which was hit by a nuclear meltdown crisis, floods, earthquakes and more. I'd still choose it over going to the USA any day. Maybe that's something to think about.

The USA are going down fast and it doesn't look like there are changes in sight in regards to their handling of immigrants, the wars or the rampand self-made economic problems.

And that is a shame.

davidw3• 15 years ago

> eradicating every bit of what was left of this dream.

I have never, ever seen a phrase so absolutely and totally full of hyperbole on this site.

0x129• 15 years ago

Why?

That's his feeling, it is whatever he writes.

Whether it is full of hyperbole or not is not knowable, he'd have to admit to that himself or you'd have to scan his brain.

TruthElixirX• 15 years ago

I don't think the USA killed this dream over the past decade. I'm pretty sure things have always been like this for non-whites in the U.S., it is just that the internet allows one to dispel the propaganda.

drieddust3• 15 years ago

Ever since Obama came to power American Visa system got fucked up. I work for a consulting firm and people are denied Visa on arbitrary grounds such as "we are not satisfied with your purpose of visit", "why you need to meet your customer face to face" etc.

Even that is fine but funny thing is that same person is allowed visa for the same purpose when he applied next time :)

American under Obama have started some kind of cheap protectionism.

gujk4• 15 years ago

Do you really think it is related to Obama's administration, or just a general trend of official xenophobia and terrorist mumbo jumbo over the past decade?

angelbob• 15 years ago

It's been pretty fucked-up before Obama, too.

drieddust3• 15 years ago

Down voters would you like to explain?

john2x• 15 years ago

Yeah, when I was a kid I saw America as "the promised land". Now, not so much.

aiham2• 15 years ago

You might want to look into the immigration procedure here in Japan first. The people are great; almost all that I've met are fine with foreigners. But not so much the government and companies. You need a fair amount of patience to make it here (especially in the work place), unless you already have a contact. Good luck.

hugh35• 15 years ago

I thought becoming a Japanese citizen was impossible for foreigners.

yeahsure5• 15 years ago

Same here. When I was a kid I pictured myself living "the american dream" when I grew up, maybe move to the States when I became a successful entrepreneur (haven't made it yet!).

A few years ago I visited the USA for the first time -and have a been there a few times since- and didn't like what I saw. I like Americans, and I like a lot of things about the US, but wouldn't live there at all.

I think the problem was what Hollywood movies made me believe the US was, and what it really is.

EDIT: Not sure why, but this is being downvoted. If you find it offensive or inaccurate, please let me know why. I don't care about the votes, I just would like to know why.

gnaritas12• 15 years ago

Could you expand on that last sentence, as an American I find it very interesting?

melvinram• 15 years ago

As a legal immigrant American citizen living in Elk Grove California, let me be the first to say "duh". Movies are a fantasy world. Before I moved to the US, I saw Dangerous Minds and thought all kids in all schools carried guns with them. Of course, this wasn't reality when I moved here.

America has her faults but you really shouldn't discount her beauty based on the news and it's mismatch to movies.

"Hollywood is destroying little guys' lifes for downloading a bunch of songs" - technically they've only sued a few people... and really, people shouldn't be stealing music anymore with songs available for 99cents now.

"insane financial schemes" - ya, there are a few really ethically challenged people who are smart enough to take advantage of others in America. But really, there are a lot of really fantastic people here as well. My business partner is someone I would be comfortable giving a blank check. I've accidentally forgotten my iPhone at Starbucks a couple times and it was returned both times. The area I live in is very safe (knock on wood.) Our garage door has accidentally been left open twice in the last ten years and we had left for the weekend. The first time nothing happened. The second time, our neighbor stayed up all night to keep watch. True story.

There are a lot of good people and yes, there are some bad people. America is a diverse collection of people. That is her strength.

mbpp• 15 years ago

I earn for a living freelancing for US companies. It has always baffled me that I am allowed to do it legally only if I stay outside of the USA.

mcherm• 15 years ago

Perhaps it is because they don't want you to pay US taxes?

alkimie• 15 years ago

I'm the son of an immigrant and married one as well, so I'm quite sympathetic....but....he has not explained why his status changed from being legally in the U.S. to some other status....

stupandaus• 15 years ago

He wasn't a legal immigrant. His status never changed.

felideon2• 15 years ago

From the post, that is not clear. It opens with "After living legally in the United States for over 20 years [...]"

From the case file, however, it seems like they entered with a J-1 visa and before their authorization to stay expired, they applied for asylum.

rdtsc11• 15 years ago

An interesting factoid. There is no legal way for anyone to just come to US and make it their home country.

Say someone from Africa or South America. They can't simply save enough money, get on a plane, land at JFK and then after 10 years or whatever time become citizens. They would have to be persecuted in a terrible way before being granted asylum, have to marry a US citizen, find a company that would hire them.

I think that is very interesting given that this country was founded on immigrants just hoping on the boat and coming here, either to build a better life or because things got terribly bad where they were.

I personally went through the whole process and it is a fucking mess. I knew how to deal with it, because I dealt with bureaucracy in the old country. I can sense an annoyed low level clerk's power trip coming on before they notice it. Such individual need special treatment. You never want to fall into anyone's cross-hairs, it seems like they would destroy you just because they can.

Also know someone who works for immigration. It is quite a dysfunctional entity. Very inefficient. Lots of internal mistakes, unpaid interns do the job searching through databases and picking people out for violations & deportation. Next time you know someone was picked out -- chances are some kid thought their last name sounded funny and it caught their attention.

0x129• 15 years ago

That goes for lots of countries.

They want you to apply from the outside.

In Canada for instance that can get really funny, where applying from within Canada for a European is only possible by applying in the United States (Buffalo, for instance).

Within Canada there is no office that can deal with your application.

rdtsc11• 15 years ago

It is not an inside vs outside, it is that they have no legal way to simply apply and get accepted, just because you want to live here. And that is fascinating in light of this being a nation of immigrants.

You'd have to fit into one of the categories -- gifted, company wants to hire you, married a citizen, have lots of money & investing in US, ...

huhtenberg4• 15 years ago

> There is no legal way for anyone to just come to US and make it their home country.

Depends on what you exactly mean by home country, but there is an investor's visa - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-2_visa

rdtsc11• 15 years ago

Home country -- on track to be a citizen.

And even E-2 is not just anyone -- it is for rich people. Even the minimum amount quoted $50,000 is considered enormous by most of almost 7 billion people living in the world.

mdda• 15 years ago

The E-2 also involves a catch-22 : To show that you're serious about building a business, they require you to show that you have (for instance) a commercial rental lined up. Other things (such as potential employees, letters of intent, bank accounts, LLC incorporation and other strong indications that the business will be viable) are also important.

However, prior to getting the visa, you can't do business in the USA : So it's pretty tough to get all this done and stay strictly within the law (a B-2 visa should be for a business outside the States, for instance).

What's more, when it comes to renew the E-2, you are forced to have an interview (after submitting a whole lot of documentation) in the Embassy in your home nation : And the Embassies won't give any firm guidelines about the visa turn-around period, so that you're left in limbo (away from the US) until the magic envelope with your visa'd Passport inside drops through the letterbox.

FWIW, once at the Embassy, the official there was pretty understanding of the hustle required of an entrepreneur, and was pretty friendly once they saw that the reality matched the intent of the visa. The documentation exists mainly for rejection purposes, IMHO.

shin_lao• 15 years ago

If you invest at least $ 1,000,000 in a company, you can get a visa. This gets down to $ 500,000 for some areas. The investment must create or maintain at least 10 jobs.

It's the EB-5 visa.

gnaritas12• 15 years ago

In other word, as usual, there are special privileges for the rich; go figure.

mc323• 15 years ago

Many countries have this asset requirement -New Zeeland, for example, Canada. It's nothing new or extra-ordinary. It's sort of insurance against draining the state in the event one were to become non-productive.

blahedo• 15 years ago

> There is no legal way for anyone to just come to US and make it their home country.

Are there countries where this is possible? This is a real question, I'm not snarking---is there some country X where I could just up and say, "I want to move to X" and just go there and make it my permanent residence? (I know that there are some countries that in practice don't enforce their requirements, but I thought all countries had them.)

dts• 15 years ago

The problem with this statement is what is meant by "just come" to the country. I personally don't think that any immigration process should cater to the serendipitous. It's a legal process and most modern countries have processes in place where if you say "I want to move to X" and start the legal process to move to X in your own country, then yes, you can go there and live there if you meet the given requirements. Are there any countries without any requirements for new immigrants (money in the bank, job offer, etc) so that anyone regardless of status can just come? That I don't know. In my experience the barriers are always money, time, patience, and background. Usually in that order.

rdtsc11• 15 years ago

I was under the impression that before people used to just get on a ship and sail to America. Land on Ellis Island, get processed and move on to build a new life in US. Isn't that true?

mbesto2• 15 years ago

I have a Tier 1 in the UK (btw- it no longer exists) and basically allowed me to make the UK my home with no job here. (I have a job) The major prerequisites were basically that English was my mother tongue, I made a certain amount of money, and/or had an advanced degree. It's more or less a way of saying "Are you going to create jobs here?" turns out I am, but doesn't necessarily mean that anyone with the prereqs checked off has the same intentions. I could theoretically have moved here and become an independent contracter.

As I understand it, its much easier in many countries to be part of their "skilled worker" areas than the US. It usually takes working for a large corporation to get a H-1B visa.

As an American citizen I feel like I can move to any country in the world. I mean any country should want me to move to theirs right? /snark

rrhm• 15 years ago

Every country has their requirements, and to a greater extent they enforce them. However, some countries make it downright impossible for a foreigner to become a resident or a citizen, while others make it exceedingly easy.

For instance, if you wanted to become a permanent resident or a citizen to the Dominican Republic, all you would have to do is get there (via sea or air), go through the motions, submit the paperwork and pay the taxes.

You would start by buying a US$10 tourist card, as a permit to enter the country, which will be approved unless you are obviously wanted by Interpol.

This will give you 60 days, during which you can apply for your provisional resident visa. For the resident visa you will need to provide, aside from the usual forms and tax payments, proof of solvency, defined as about 13k dollars in assets (cash and property) at the current exchange rate, and a letter of sponsorship from any good-faith Dominican citizen with in-country legal residence.

Within the first two months after this visa you can apply for a provisional residency card. About four months after the application, you receive your provisional residency card, which lasts a year. At about the year mark, it does not matter much if it happens before or after, you can apply for your permanent residency card. That last one lasts 3 years and is indefinitely renewable (as long as you do not commit a horrible crime).

After two years of uninterrupted legal residency in the country (i.e. at least six months and one day per year) you can apply for naturalization.

All the while, you are free to engage in productive business from day one. You would be taxed differently, on account of not being a citizen, but you would be allowed to work for a profit. If you happen to aquire assets in-country, there is leeway to have the sponsorship requirements waived.

Legal translations, medical examinations and notary public fees carry the burden of the cost of the process. Taxes will run you up less than $100 in total. The entire process is fairly inexpensive and could probably be done with less than $1000 dollars.

xtracto• 15 years ago

While I was studying in the UK I met several Latin Americans who told me were living there as good as they could until 10 years (I think, maybe less) have passed. It seems after you are there (in any way) for 10 years, you can somehow claim the residency.

The straight facts may be different, but that was the general idea of what I understood.

gujk4• 15 years ago

Is that surprising or peculiar to the USA? Is it easy to become a citizen of Japan, or Germany? It is a general pattern that highly desirable destinations to live eventually fill up (by some metric chosen by the insiders) and close borders or are made undesirable.

rdtsc11• 15 years ago

Germany and Japan don't spew propaganda about them being built by immigrants or being a melting pot or something like that. US is, while at the same time having draconian immigration policies. I think that disconnect is interesting.

megablast• 15 years ago

> An interesting factoid. There is no legal way for anyone to just come to US and make it their home country.

I am pretty sure this is exactly the same for every country. Not anyone can move to any other country, it has not been that way for a long time.

steve89182• 15 years ago

I hate to say it but from a brief reading of the information, it sounds like their asylum was first denied back in 1997, and they've been fighting it ever since. They certainly have the right to fight it, but it's been an uphill battle for almost 15 years, so the outcome certainly doesn't seem like a surprise.

The person is obviously a great entrepreneur, he probably should have just left on his own accord instead of fighting it to the point where he's thrown in jail.

The ridiculous thing is that he's in the US, paying his taxes, creating income, etc.... why throw him out? I suppose it's because he applied for asylum that was denied, and they are throwing him out to prove a point, but the entire thing is just counterproductive to what we want in this country.

ecopoesis2• 15 years ago

The point is there are rules. To come to the US you can either:

1) Apply to INS, wait in line, enter the lottery and follow the law.

2) Hop on a plane and hope they don't catch you.

He chose route 2, and is now paying the consequences. Just because he's an entrepreneur doesn't give him any more right to be here then any other would be immigrant, and it certainly doesn't give him the right to jump the line

steve89182• 15 years ago

I agree there are rules, and rules need to be followed. I immigrated to the US as well, and went through a lot of troubles to immigrate legally and successfully, so I very much do not like the idea of people trying to skip the line.

That being said, in the 20 years since he's been here, presumably legally since he was legally allowed to stay while fighting his case, he's made a good life for himself and his family, and they appear to be productive members of society.

If it were me, I probably would have denied the asylum application, but given his entrepreneurial skills, I would have allowed him to apply on an investor's visa and let him stay during the process. The problem is that it took 20 years for the case to go through, which allowed them to create a good argument to stay in the US by being productive members of society. If they sped up the process, this wouldn't have even been an issue.

In the end, aren't these people what we want from immigrants? It's ridiculous how politicians don't try to do very much about illegal immigration because it's so pervasive, but when they find a productive member of society who is trying to immigrate, they throw him in jail because he has revealed himself.

shiven• 15 years ago

ecopoesis, there are laws and then there is the interpretation of those laws, right? you don't have to be lawyer to see that and i am not one. because there exists a law does not mean it is automatically just and 'right'. laws get changed all the time and examples as this are a good reason to re-evaluate their 'correctness' and discuss in a broader social context the changes that are required.

RyanMcGreal• 15 years ago

The point is: there's something wrong with the rules.

zb• 15 years ago

No, he didn't. He was legally in the country and he applied for asylum before his authorisation expired. It was all above-board, though that doesn't mean he gets to stay since the asylum application was eventually declined.

peacemaker• 15 years ago

As much as I sympathise with the guy for going through all this I can't help but think that it's all his own fault.

USA, like many countries, has a strict immigration system in which you must play by the rules and follow the process to become 'legal'. Just living in the country is not enough, you must apply for residency by qualifying in some way.

Unfortunately, it's quite tough to qualify to stay in the US for most people. Skilled immigrant visas are notoriously difficult to attain (there's no simple points system like Australia for example) and so you must look to marriage to a citizen, asylum or the green card lottery. If you think marriage is the easy choice you'd be wrong too.

As someone who is going through the process right now, it can be difficult, expensive, depressing, demeaning (having to prove your relationship is 'real') and downright frustrating but right now that's the way the system works so you must work with the system. This guy obviously didn't and now he's paying the price.

ohboy• 15 years ago

why does this story seem like troll bait?

hoggle• 15 years ago

We have the same issues here in Austria, it always feels backwards when somebody well integrated gets kicked out "because the law is the law". It's also one of the main tools for populist politicians to mine for votes ("Fear!"). Although it might seem to be a complicated issue in the end it's not. It's just plain stupid.

compay2• 15 years ago

I'm American. My wife is Argentine. We live in Argentina in large part because when we wanted to marry in 2006, we couldn't get her a permanent visa to live in the USA.

Her fiancee visa was in fact quickly approved, pending an interview at the US consulate in Buenos Aires. We waited and waited, called, had our lawyers call, and the response was always "when the consulate is ready to make an appointment, they will call you." They never called, leaving us in limbo for over a year and saddled with thousands of dollars in legal fees.

Eventually we grew tired of the uncertainty. I moved to Argentina, we got married, and we've lived here ever since.

Argentina is not perfect. But the legal status of foreign residents here is much clearer than in the USA. As the husband of a citizen, permanent residency was automatic provided I didn't have a criminal record in my home country (I don't). I am allowed to vote in municipal elections. And, now as the father of an Argentine citizen, citizenship is also automatic if I want it.

You might think that Argentina can afford to be generous with immigrants because it has nowhere near the load of foreign residents that the USA does, and to an extent that's certainly true. But on the other hand, Argentina has fairly large immigrant communities (from Peru, Paraguay, Bolivia and China), more social welfare services (basic healthcare is free here), and a lot less financial resources than the USA.

Having now lived somewhere else and been on the "other side" of the immigration issue, I feel indignant and outraged when I read about how my country treats non-citizen residents.

maratd• 15 years ago

Nobody is going to dispute that the immigration laws in the US are draconian. They're a patchwork sown together by various special interests and make very little sense. However, in the past, they were rarely enforced. Only in instances where someone committed a felony or something of that nature. Over the last decade and especially during the Obama administration, ICE stepped up enforcement. If I had to guess, I'd say it's related to the recession? I honestly don't know why.

eis3• 15 years ago

I am convinced the economic climate plays at least some part into it. How big of a part, I am not sure. But looking at the history of all kinds of countries, you can see that when there are issues like high unemployment rate, then the sentiment towards foreigners tends to not be the most welcomeing.

Also the worse the situation, the more radical the actions to turn it around will be - no matter if those actions actually help or make it worse.

Duff• 15 years ago

It's "get tough" politics. Unions donate billions to Democrats, and they are unhappy with immigration in many industries. (ie. Meat packing, whose union membership has declined dramatically as a result of companies being allowed to exploit undocumented labor.) On the other side, you have conservatives, who are always up in arms about the immigration "crisis". These folks are balanced by the business-focused republicans, who need immigrants to make money.

The end result? Instead of allowing legitimized, orderly immigration from Mexico and Central America, we pretend that that it isn't happening, and then spend billions on needless social services and draconian law enforcement.

Both sets of my grandparents were immigrants to the United States from Ireland. On my mother's side, my grandfather had a 7th grade education (common in rural Ireland) and my grandmother was pregnant when they immigrated here after WW2. All they needed to do was scrape together a few buck and fill out some forms, and they arrived in New York as legitimate resident aliens, able to get jobs and function fully in society.

Today, my grandparents would be accused of moving here to give birth to an "anchor baby" and would probably be here illegally, unless they won one of the elusive green card lottery slots.

knowtheory• 15 years ago

Take this with a grain of salt, since this is conjecture, but don't underestimate the weight and inertia of gigantic bureaucracies.

ICE was set up during the later years of the Bush administration, and now they've hit their stride after ramping up. The Obama Administration could expend political capital to do something about the issue, but that's probably not a winning political stance.

alttag• 15 years ago

Concur. My sister married a non-citizen. It took three years (and two kids) before her husband's U.S. citizenship was conferred. What a mess.

colkassad5• 15 years ago

This is the rule. It's five years for non-spouses I believe. I assume he was living in the US as a permanent resident during this time.

gyardley2• 15 years ago

That's to ensure the marriage wasn't a false one for the purposes of immigration fraud.

Honestly, as long as your brother-in-law got his permanent residency in a timely fashion and could work in the United States and live with his family, I don't think there's anything to complain about here. I went through the same process - apart from the naturalization at the end, which I've got no desire to do.

colkassad5• 15 years ago

I married my wife overseas in 2007. In 2008 we applied for immigration at a US embassy (I sponsored her as my spouse), waited a couple of months, and received an appointment date. My wife was granted a visa at the appointment. I made a comment during the interview on how the process was so painless and the consulate basically said, "well, you guys are married". 3 years later, she is a US citizen. I think the fiancee visa route plays second fiddle to family immigration. That and maybe the Buenos Aires consulate needs to get their act together. It's a shame you spent so much money on lawyers as well :| Good luck to you...you may want to try again now that you are married.

bluekite2000• 15 years ago

Is this a personal experience that you are generalizing or it is actually faster to get a wife to the US vs a fiancee? Any link to actual law is appreciated.

compay2• 15 years ago

Glad to hear you had such a better experience. There are definitely a lot of factors to consider.

Luckily since our initial terrible experience, we've had nothing but good ones with the US Consulate in Buenos Aires. So I'm hopeful that if we ever decide to move back to the USA, being married for 5 years and having a child will count in our favor and make the process much easier like it was for you.

As it is though, I've grown pretty comfortable here and don't know if we'll ever move back. All's well that ends well, I suppose. :)

mc323• 15 years ago

Yes. Marry over-seas then apply for the visa at over-seas consulate --should take about 3-months or so.

I know a handful of couples like that. It was pretty painless --so long as they married prior to coming to the US. So they were legally married overseas, then applied at overseas consulate and green card was granted --citizenship can be applied for a year after arrival, and (I'm under the impression) most have been granted citizenship within one to two years. No fuss, that I've heard of.

Now, (you) working overseas (not in the US) as a non citizen can get tricky for US citizens --you have to be sponsored, of course, but in some countries, like Argentina, you (or employer most likely) would have to prove there was no local available to fulfill the job requirement. That can be a tough hurdle.

jisaacstone• 15 years ago

Took me more than a year and a letter from my congressmen to get a fiancée visa for my wife.

- Even when we finally got an interview the visa was rejected at first because I was living there, with her, instead of back in the USA, alone. They said I had not maintained 'domicile' in the USA and therefore did not intend to return home.

- When we finally received the visa it listed my father as the sponsor instead of me. We had to get a new one.

- Somewhere on the USCIS website it actually stated that applicants were 'guilty until proven innocent'

- In the waiting room, waiting for the final, correct visa there were a group of Americans waiting to adopt. They were given a nice instruction session on what to do, how to fill out the forms, how to deal with the Chinese adoption policies. I, however, felt I had been actively refused help at every turn in a deliberately opaque bureaucracy.

wmil• 15 years ago

You should try again.

You see, it can be very difficult to fire high level bureaucrats. If you don't have faith in them it can be more dangerous to leave them in place.

Transferring them to South America is a popular solution. It's nice enough that they won't fight the transfer, and safe enough that they can't mess things up too badly.

Try talking to a consulate in a different city.

atirip• 15 years ago

From the Case Summary: "Atanas Entchev (“Entchev”) entered the United States in August 1991 as a nonimmigrant exchange visitor on a J-1 visa. His wife, Mayia Entcheva, and son, Enislav Entchev, entered the United States in 1992 and 1993, respectively. They were authorized to remain in the United States until July 30, 1993. Before their authorization expired, the petitioners applied for asylum. Entchev argued persecution based on his political beliefs in opposition to the Communist party, which ruled Bulgaria until 1989."

So they applied for asylum on political grounds in 1993, because the Communist party was dethroned 4 years earlier. Well...

llcoolv3• 15 years ago

Shame is that this guy is most probably Bulgarian and he holds the burgundy passport, which enables him to do his trade almost all over Europe (except for Belarus, Moldova, etc) without having to deal with any bureaucracy or the 'you dirty outsider' attitude. I really don't get it what so many people see in the US.

parfe• 15 years ago

>I really don't get it what so many people see in the US.

1) US and EU economies nearly equal each other in size. [1]

2) You only need one language in the US to reach the entire market.

3) I don't believe for a second there isn't prejudice against outsiders in each individual European country. Wikipedia hosts an article written just about tensions regarding Polish people entering the UK! [2]

1 https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...

2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Polish_sentiment_in_the_Un...

llcoolv3• 15 years ago

I generally agree with the first point, with the difference that the economy growth in Europe has been several times higher during the past decade and that trend will continue. Also the debt problems in Europe are less serious than the ones in the US. Also, EU is not going to grow only within - Croatia is joining in 2013 and after that other countries will follow. So Europe has a much greater potential.

2) Well, i18n is nothing hard these days, at least from a technical perspective, also you could reach certain market types using only English quite well in Europe.

3) Yes, this is true, however these problems are visible only in small parts of certain tiers of society. Shortly, the chances of meeting people who openly display negative sentiments against foreigners are smaller if you run a company consulting about GIS, than if you are a plumber/gas station clerk or whatever.

Also, by "'you dirty outsider' attitude" I meant that attitude being displayed by the government, which is very typical in the US.

For example I am a software developer, who comes from one of the 'new' countries and currently lives in another 'new' one, but I have spent significant time in an Western European country and so far I haven't had a single problem with bureaucracy (and with drugged-out undereducated unemployed youths with too fragile minds as well) at any of these places, which compared to Entchev's case of 'they got my entire family under arrest and ruined the life I have been building for the past 20 years' is a whole world of difference.

krookoo3• 15 years ago

A sense of home. The US is now his home. This is a very valuable thing.

llcoolv3• 15 years ago

Yes, but before that another country has been his home and he has ultimately left it for being slightly harassed during the totalitarian rule. Could you compare some harassment (which unfortunately has been something quite usual during those times) with the arrest of one's entire family and being treated like garbage that has to be taken out?

tomgruner4• 15 years ago

This seems extremely harsh to me. And also stupid not to value this man's contribution to the U.S.

In 2004 I arrived in Spain as an American and found a programming job at the international division of a sizable U.S. company. But everything was under the table, and that company did not want to sponsor a visa for me. But even when I was illegal in Spain I still had access to better free health care than the uninsured do in the U.S.

Fast forward to 2008, I was still living in Spain and had done some great work for a unrelated startup that was purchased by a much larger U.S. company. I was still in Spain illegally, but this major U.S. company on finding out my status was willing to help me out in any way to become legal here.

Spain has something called "Social Normalization for Exceptional Circumstances" which means if you have been in the country for three years illegally and have a company sponsor you, they will give you a work visa. You also have to be integrated in the community and speak the local languages well. So in 2008, this major U.S. company paid a lawyer and helped me through that process, something that I am exceptionally grateful for. During the time I worked for this company, my work helped bring in millions of Euros of contracts to the international division of this company in Spain.

Now in 2011 I still live in Spain, have the freedom to change jobs or work for myself, and after 7 more years I could become a citizen here, on the condition that I am always working and living in Spain during those years. That means 15 years from illegal to full citizen. I doubt I will stay that long, and don't actually plan on becoming a Spanish citizen, but knowing that if I had a family here and have that option is amazing. Now I am happily working for a Spanish university research group, fully legal.

And I have to say, I think it is disgusting to take a man, and especially his son who has lived in the U.S. since the age of two and treat them like criminals when the father has been actively contributing to the U.S. economy in one of the areas that the U.S. excels at. To criminalize this contribution is to spit in the face of all those immigrants who became American and made America what it is today.

And it is also denying the basic human rights of this individual.This clearly violates Article 15 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Article 15.

    * (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
    * (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

I strongly believe that 20 years of crime free residence and contribution to a nation deserves citizenship, and if I choose to, that is what I would receive in Spain after starting here illegaly.

Edit: As noted in the comments below, actually this does not violate Article 15 at all. I still stick with my conclusion though.

Mvandenbergh2• 15 years ago

This clearly violates Article 15 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

No it doesn't, no-one in this story is being deprived of their nationality. In any case, the prohibition is on arbitrary deprivation, and a 15 year long court battle is not arbitrary.

tomgruner4• 15 years ago

You are right about that, I made a note on the post above. Thanks.

chalst• 15 years ago

I agree with your conclusion, but the violation of article 15 is not perfectly clear: the tricky word in clause (2) is the adverb "arbitrarily" - I think it is generally taken to mean that, in the context of the article 15 being about statelessness, nations are obliged to offer a citizenship path to refugees, but otherwise are not obliged to offer a citizenship path to anyone else.

I got this impression from an article I read ages ago, but 5 minutes with Google Scholar did not give me any sources to back this impression up.

tomgruner4• 15 years ago

Your probably right about that, I don't have any legal expertise. It seems that Article 15 states that each person has a right to a nationality, not to the nationality of the country they are in.

krookoo3• 15 years ago

Why would an American want to live illegally in spain?

tomgruner4• 15 years ago

A few reasons:

I had free healthcare, even though I only used it for one or two checkups.

I was enjoying making art and the art scene in Barcelona, at least for the first few years I was here.

The first job was potentially better than what I could get in the U.S. It was my first programming job and I am not a cs major, I have a liberal arts degree which doesn't get you many jobs in the U.S. So it was a professional opportunity for me. I just wanted to live in Spain, and never had issues any serious issues being illegal that really impacted my life. I was very fortunate in that I had a well paid part time job. The biggest inconvenience I suffered was not being able to sign contracts for mobile phones or apartments. Trivial compared to what most illegal immigrants go through.

Now, as I get a bit older (I am 34), and have substantial programming experience, the jobs and opportunities available in the U.S. are looking very attractive. At the moment I stay in Barcelona for personal reasons and a desire to finish the current contract I have with the research group. I do have my eye on moving back to the U.S. next year.

huhtenberg4• 15 years ago

> ... our 18-year immigration ordeal

I wonder what this is referring to and how it reconciles with

> ... living legally in the United States for over 20 years

Something tells me there's more to the story than what's in the linked post.

unreal37• 15 years ago

He came to the US on an exchange visa. And then he brought his family. And then his visa expired. And then he applied as a refugee. And clearly he is not a true refugee, he just likes living in the US. And he should have left in 1997 but he's been fighting that order in the courts ever since.

I think it might be an unpopular opinion, but in reading the legal doc, he doesn't have much of a case to stay. He should have been deported 14 years ago. The real tragedy is that it took so long.

fourmii2• 15 years ago

I'm an Australian, currently living in the US on a green card via being married to an American. While I sympathize with his plight and I also strongly believe that when you choose to enter a country, you should respect it's laws. He did willingly come to the US and overstay his visa, so therefore broke US immigration laws. Now I don't necessarily agree with the US immigration process, I believe it's rather tough and unfair not to mention a little demeaning and insensitive.

What do you do though, the immigration system doesn't seem to be set up to handle exceptions. Once you make one, you have to grant exceptions to others. It's a tough dilemna, Atanas has been seemingly a constructive member of society, hopefully paying taxes along the way. It would be a shame in this sense to punish such a person.

ireadzalot• 15 years ago

It should be acknowledged that Australians have a special and easy way for coming to US and getting permanent residency. For example, if an Australian wanted to start a business in US, you are automatically qualified to apply for residency right away. (My information is based on what an Australian couple told me 5 years ago in the US).

fourmii2• 15 years ago

True, Aussies now have the E3 visa which is a work sponsored visa just for Aussies. But I came here years before that happened. I had to convince someone to give me one of the very rare H1B visas just to come over to be with my then girlfriend. We eventually got married and I applied for the greencard.

I'm not sure about auto qualification if you want to start a business. I think you need something like $1M in the bank to prove that you have the resources to start...

hugh35• 15 years ago

Actually the E3 visa lets you hang around more or less indefinitely, but it explicitly does not allow you to apply for permanent residency.

TomGullen2• 15 years ago

USA's immigration laws are pretty hilarious when you remember the majority of the population are immigrants themselves who pushed the natives out the way all those years ago. It's a country founded on immigration.

noarchy• 15 years ago

You can say this about all of the Americas, in general. National borders, especially that of the US, are becoming harder and harder to deal with if you're a human being. It seems to be a lot easier if you're a trade good.

hugh35• 15 years ago

The "natives" are immigrants too, just from slightly earlier.

We're all Africans.

TomGullen2• 15 years ago

Well yeah there is that! I generally find political discussion on immigration wholly distasteful, and often parading itself as xenophobic/racist propaganda.

The whole immigration issue boils down to "we got here first! nah nah ne nah nah!"

baabuu• 15 years ago

I really feel sorry for him and his family.One more victim of the stupid, time-consuming US immigration laws.I completed this immigration ordeal and witnessed many of my friends in immigration limbo.It is an extremely difficult, frustrating and time-consuming experience, not to mention it sucks whatever you earn.

There seems to be some confusion related to his legal status.He entered US legally and applied asylum for him and his family.During this period, they are in legal status. After they apply for asylum, they have no control or information over that process.If the immigration process was fast enough, none of this would have happened.When the immigration rejected their application after a long time, they filed an appeal which was rejected again.Now they have run out of attempts via the asylum option and are being kicked out. I hope they can try some other category.

<rant> The immigration process, with so many different categories and quotas, is a huge bureaucratic mess. The are still using papers and just recently started using online documents for some processing. It is the second highest profitable government agency minting money out of immigrants. The process can be streamlined and made faster even with the current policies. But who cares about legal immigration anyway? Let those "aliens" stand in line and wait forever. I personally know many friends and families living with constant fear and uncertainty for almost a decade or more.

The policies and rules are just too confusing and inconsistent.Two identical immigrant families can go through completely different process, duration and rules depending on whether a knowledgeable or ignorant immigration agent processing their files. </rant>

Rariel• 15 years ago

I know this is an unpopular opinion but, having worked for the government and as an attorney I think it is always sad when families are deported but it is not outrageous. The laws are the laws and they apply equally to (almost) everybody. When people over stay their visas they have broken the law, there is no getting around that and no amount of hard work, tax paying or community involvement can change that. People are arrested and jailed everyday under inequitable laws (crack/cocaine sentencing discrepancy comes to mind) but the way to fix it isn't to get caught up under that law and complain about it.

It's unfortunate that this man will have to relocate but I feel more sympathy for his son than him.

ebaysucks2• 15 years ago

People here arguing that the US should accept more immigrants from all over the world because "the US has been built on immigrants" need to get their facts straight:

The "National Origins Formula" was only abolished in 1965. Before 1965, US immigrants were 90+% white.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Origins_Formula [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act...

This is fact, not opinion.

I'm not arguing a certain side here, but want to point out that those who say "the US has been built on immigrants" might be nostalgic to a past that never existed.

zzaz• 15 years ago

Another funny thing about US immigration law is, that if you are an international student in the USA (on an F1 visa) you are entitled to work only for the university that has issued you this visa. For everything else, you have to use your OPT (Optional Practical Training), which is a pool of twelve months, that you can use to work for somebody else, while holding an F1. I will not dig into details such as the fact that it costs about $400, and it takes ~ 2 months to apply and be allowed to use a chunk of your OPT.

If you are an international student and not on OPT, you cannot legally work full time/part time/do an internship with the startup your friend just launched (or any other company, on this note). You may want to risk spending your months, or doing some other jazz, and then try to figure things out, but as we can see from the case at hand these maneuvers do not work out well for everybody.

As for sponsorship, from the employer's perspective, the whole visa sponsorship application process costs about $10k, which is not little money for a small company.

aquayellow• 15 years ago

"Another funny thing about US immigration law is, that if you are an international student in the USA (on an F1 visa) you are entitled to work only for the university that has issued you this visa."

Isn't this all part of the 9/11 hysteria ? I am not sure but I was told that before 2001 you could work part time for any employer you wanted if you came here on a F1.

pandaman• 15 years ago

Immigration lawyers love to to offer asylum because these cases can go for decades and anyone can "participate". It also looks attractive to the prospective immigrant when an alternative would be to go through EB or investment immigration. However, if you are deciding to seek asylum on a lawyer advice you are most likely not qualified. Real refugees don't become refugees voluntarily. They also don't have lawyers. Yes, it's much easier to claim asylum than go through non-fraudulent immigration. However the consequences of an asylum case falling through are also much harsher.

torontos• 15 years ago

Reminds me of this amazing story of the undocumented journalist: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/magazine/my-life-as-an-und...

alain94040• 15 years ago

Flagged, title is misleading. Nowhere does it say anything about quotas. The person claims to have been in the US legally for 18 years, but if you read the lawsuit, it's far from being clear, on the contrary. He has filed appeal after appeal, maybe timely, maybe not.

Immigrant entrepreneur arrested to meet quotas

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