Google removes religious organizations from non-profit discount list

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-15/google-do-gooder-discount-lets-churches-beg-commentary-by-stephen-carter.html

by eggdude • 15 years ago

69 84 15 years ago

So? Perhaps I'm biased, but calling religious organizations non-profits has always struck me as suspect. If they're performing a charitable function, they can easily do so as a secular charity. If they're proselytizing, then they are functionally no different from self-help gurus who charge people to attend conferences.

I understand that, for many religious people, proselytizing and charity are inseparable. They commit charitable acts in the name of, and because of their religion. There is no discernible difference, to them, between feeding someone and saving their soul, save the greater importance of the latter. However, we live in an at least nominally secular society. That means that we don't show preference for or prejudice against religions. Societal factors have led to the preservation of the tax-exempt status of religious organizations, but this relic of an age when the Church was more powerful than most states should not lead to an expectation amongst the religious that they should receive similar treatment from private enterprise.

That Google offers a non-profit discount at all is admirable. I suspect those complaining would be singing a much different tune if they were aware that under its previous rules, Google was directly subsidizing the Church of Scientology and other such organizations. It's terrible when your Sunday school's subsidy is revoked, but not so bad when a crazy cult is forced to pay full price. The obvious conclusion is that all religious subsidies must be avoided, or Google finds itself in the unenviable (and untenable) position, as a multinational corporation, of deciding which religions are deserving of its patronage.

ars4• 15 years ago

> Perhaps I'm biased, but calling religious organizations non-profits has always struck me as suspect.

Yes, you are biased. Non profit means "not to make a profit", and that fits religious organizations quite well. None of them try to make a profit, therefor they are non-profit. It's not really that complicated.

> If they're proselytizing, then they are functionally no different from self-help gurus who charge people to attend conferences.

Except that they don't charge. Which of course does make them different.

You are biased because you (presumably) don't like what they do, but that's your opinion, and you should not assume everyone shares it.

And it's interesting you find the only organization in the world that claims to be a for-profit religion (Scientology) and use that to paint the rest of them. (Again barring fraud, which obviously does happen.)

Scientology is for profit because they charge money for their services, no other religion does that. Other religions ask for donations, sure, but the services are not conditional on the donations.

Just because an organization has a message does not make them for profit, anymore than a secular organization with a message ("don't eat meat" for example) automatically becomes for profit.

Your post sounds like you want to be the arbiter of which messages are for profit and which are not.

redthrowaway2• 15 years ago

>Yes, you are biased. Non profit means "not to make a profit", and that fits religious organizations quite well. None of them try to make a profit, therefor they are non-profit. It's not really that complicated.

Most religious organizations turn large profits. That they are used to build more churches, mosques, and temples does not detract from the fact that it's a profit.

>Except that they don't charge. Which of course does make them different.

Again, this is false. There isn't a cover charge, but there's an expectation of donation. It's no different from a tip. Waiters aren't non-profit, and neither are churches.

>You are biased because you (presumably) don't like what they do, but that's your opinion, and you should not assume everyone shares it.

A) I don't assume everyone shares it. B) I like a great deal of what many religious organizations do and have done, and dislike a great deal they do as well.

>And it's interesting you find the only organization in the world that claims to be a for-profit religion (Scientology) and use that to paint the rest of them. (Again barring fraud, which obviously does happen.)

This is patently false. From the Catholic Church, to Evangelical preachers, to most other organized religions, they all turn a profit.

>Your post sounds like you want to be the arbiter of which messages are for profit and which are not.

Message has nothing to do with turning a profit. That is determined by the money you take in minus the money you spend. I count money spent on growing the organization, through the building of additional churches and missionary works, as an investment in future profits, and hence not deductible from profits (to the extent it would make an organization a non-profit).

I've clearly stepped on your toes. I apologize for the offense I've caused, but not for the words that caused it, which I stand by.

vacri9• 15 years ago

None of them try to make a profit, therefor they are non-profit.

This is outright willful ignorance. There are plenty of religious organisations whose purpose is to line the leaders' pockets with money.

Then you conflate 'religious organisation' with 'religion', which are two separate things. Yes, "Christianity" is nominally a "non-profit religion", but there are plenty of christian religious organisations that have fleeced their flock.

dalke4• 15 years ago

Churches are exempt from many non-discrimination rules. They can exclude people who are not members of their faith, and may decide to kick someone out of the church should they divorce. The Salvation Army is anti-gay and actively lobbies against gay rights, as does the Mormon church.

If a company has the policy of not discriminating based on faith, creed, skin color, marital status, veteran status, etc. then it wouldn't be appropriate to support another organization which DOES so discriminate.

I have no idea if this is Google's reasoning, but it seems like perfectly ethical reasoning of why they may not want to extend non-profit discount to churches.

BTW, it isn't hard to set up a non-profit subsidiary. A church which wanted to could start one and use that to receive donations. There's some paperwork, but it isn't much - and most churches already have someone to manage their own paperwork. The new non-profit, of course, would be subject to non-discrimination laws.

donw2• 15 years ago

> Yes, you are biased. Non profit means "not to make a profit", and that fits religious organizations quite well. None of them try to make a profit, therefor they are non-profit. It's not really that complicated.

Except that really isn't the case; most religions are non-profit only because you can specify quite interesting definitions for the word 'profit'.

As a case-in-point, look at the Mormon church. Mormon families are supposed to give a monthly donation of ten percent of their income to the church as 'tithing', which is tax-deductible, and of course the church is a 'non-profit'.

Church assets are estimated at over $30 billion USD, and they pull in about $5 billion annually. That's a lot of profit for a 'non-profit' organization.

This money pays for a lot of business-like activities. Salaries for high-level church officials, construction of buildings for church and public activities, global recruitment and proselytization operations, investment, lobbying activities, etc.

Some of it even makes it into humanitarian efforts, although that's part of the proselytization arm.

I've got no problem with any of this; as private citizens, they should be free to spend money however they want.

My problem is that these are all business activities. Nothing the church does is purely humanitarian; even their aid packages for disaster areas come with copies of the Book of Mormon, which I'd consider Sales and Marketing.

As such, they should pay taxes in the same way that a large corporation does.

Note that I'm not picking on the Mormons specifically; the Catholics, Methodists, Muslims, Jews, and pretty much every other major organized religion that I can think of do the same things.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finances_of_The_Church_of_Jesus...

buff-a8• 15 years ago

If there is one thing that readers of HN should appreciate, it is the value of Influence. Facebook had value simply because it could put a message in front of 500 million people.

Organized Religion's primary purpose is Influence. Argue that it is "for a good cause", to "save souls", if you want. That is opinion. That they have Influence is fact. That they use this Influence to induce their members to spend money is fact. That they use this Influence to induce their members to vote for a particular candidate or particular issue is fact.

Influence is $$$.

How is Organized Religion any different from Facebook or Google?

EDIT: Perhaps a comment from the downvoters? I don't get it.

gyardley5• 15 years ago

I didn't downvote you -- but perhaps you were downvoted because while organized religions do have influence, that doesn't imply that the purpose of organized religion is influence.

An attribute of a thing is not necessarily the purpose of a thing; just because my cat has fur doesn't mean my cat's purpose is 'fur'.

You may have also been downvoted because your comment seemed disrespectful or simplistic in its attitude towards organized religion. When I go to my synagogue for Shabbat services, 'influence' has nothing to do with it.

sp332• 15 years ago

However, we live in an at least nominally secular society. That means that we don't show preference for or prejudice against religions.

I think this is where you're wrong. Freedom of religion doesn't mean secular, it means you get to have whatever religion you like. Consider:

The US government isn't a Catholic organization, so we won't give tax breaks to Catholic charities.

The US government isn't a Libertarian organization, so we won't give tax breaks to Libertarian charities.

should not lead to an expectation amongst the religious that they should receive similar treatment from private enterprise.

You really can't separate charity from the ethical principles that drive people to do it. Religion is a private enterprise.

buff-a8• 15 years ago

Were these for- profit companies suddenly to decide that churches were not eligible for their largesse, the lunch program would almost certainly be shut down.

Perhaps to be replaced by secular organizations, instead of organizations that believe that in a few years time myself and most of my friends are going to be tortured for eternity in a very real place called hell and who are ok with that.

ars4• 15 years ago

So what you are saying is, because you don't agree with them they should be shut down?

vacri9• 15 years ago

Again, you're conflating things. "No more discounts for you, but please avail yourself of our regular services" is not some jackbooted thug forcing you to close.

It's an end to favourable special treatment, not an increased burden of restrictions.

tomjen3• 15 years ago

How about because he doesn't like them, he doesn't care if they are shut down.

gizzlon6• 15 years ago

Instead, they're only going to give "discount" lunch to people they agree with ;)

Seems like google decides what nonprofits are good and deserves a discount and who are "evil" (or whatever) and does not. How would their soup-kitchen look like?

buff-a8• 15 years ago

They don't appear to be making any value judgments, at least from what I read in the article. If you have an entity that provides a charitable purpose, and nothing else, then you get lower costs. If you have an entity that is involved in something else, then you don't get lower costs.

danssig5• 15 years ago

Who said anyone is ok with you going to hell? What would you have them do about it? I assume your answer will be "stop believing in it", to which I'll answer: should I take the same tact if I see you smoking? Assume cancer doesn't exist?

cgranade2• 15 years ago

I presume you are aware that we have an extensive amount of evidence that cancer does exist and is a real and likely consequence of smoking, but that we have absolutely no evidence of a hell, much less of which actions would lead one there.

nemoniac• 15 years ago

By what sense of entitlement does the columnist expect preferential treatment by Google or anyone else merely due to the fact that you have a religious group?

By coupling charitable activities to religious activities you raise questions about your motives. Decouple them and your genuine charitable activities will be eligible.

Tichy3• 15 years ago

Was thinking the same thing - if some religious group wants to do common good (rather than repair the roof of their church or whatever), they could simply create a spin-off organization dedicated to the common good.

pbhjpbhj6• 15 years ago

So, if they run a soup kitchen or other service from their building they have to let it fall down, at which point they can't offer any further services from the building?

If the roof is repaired, as it is at out church building, by volunteer labour from the Church using their own funds ... presumably then too you'd want to stop supporting any charitable function we perform?

I think the thing people don't seem to understand about [most] Christian churches is that the money comes from the people who are part of the local Church community. It's what they could instead choose to spend on going to a football game every week or buying a new car or going on holiday. It's their money that has already been taxed as income being pooled together for common activities; more often than not those common activities include a large proportion of charitable work.

gizzlon6• 15 years ago

Or, it's the other way around: They expect to not be treated differently than other nonprofit's merely due to the fact that they have a religious group.

So who decides what "genuine charitable" activities are?

bryanlarsen• 15 years ago

So who decides what "genuine charitable" activities are?

The IRS, actually. Google for 501c3.

warmfuzzykitten• 15 years ago

Doesn't sound like a bug to me.

zecg• 15 years ago

Good.

tomelders• 15 years ago

Amen brother.

irahul• 15 years ago

The sense of entitlement is sickening.

litmus• 15 years ago

To me it seems pretty simple: google seems to make no distinction between charitable political groups or religious organizations. they're the same damn thing in their eyes.

Would church leaders consider the church a success if they eliminated poverty in the world but the entire world became atheists?

Answer: No. If they were true believers they would accept it as an utter failure since all those souls would be in danger of experiencing a less than optimal eternity.

Question: What would be the answer to the same question from an organization whose sole purpose was to eliminate poverty in the world?

Answer: You're damn right it's a success!

From an ethical standpoint, the focus on the word "nonprofit" is misleading. No organization in the world has "not to make a profit" as its primary purpose. Not being for profit is the means for the transparency that is required to acheive the goal.

buff-a8• 15 years ago

THIS. And in fact because of this, religions actively cause poverty and hardship.

rogerbraun• 15 years ago

So now it's only for non-prophet organizations?

jleyank2• 15 years ago

I'm sure it's been said before and will be said again - so it goes. Formal non-profit status should be lost whenever the organization engages in political activity. I am not comfortable subsidizing (via a tax break) activities that are hostile to me or my world view. I surely don't want to support hostile lobby groups.

adammichaelc2• 15 years ago

By that logic, religions should not be entitled to free speech. This seems wrong. There are many non-profits whose political speech I disagree with, but I wouldn't say to cut off their non-profit status is the answer.

cgranade2• 15 years ago

Free speech is not the same as enjoying non-profit status. Google cutting off the latter means that they no longer actively sponsor the speech of religious groups, but those groups still are able to speak the same as anyone else. By ceasing to preferentially treat religious organizations, Google has effectively taken a stance for free speech, not against it.

adammichaelc2• 15 years ago

The trend of anti-religious comments below is saddening, even more so because it seems to be the overwhelming group-think on the subject. For a group that has benefited so much from the foundations setup by religion to attack the same is short-sighted, though unfortunately not uncommon in a world where the media increasingly paints religion using only the most extreme brush and leaves most people with a taste in their mouth that religion is something foreign and even repulsive.

There are three ways I see religion as providing us with a foundation that is so obvious and common that it may almost go unnoticed.

First, much of our legal system has as its foundation a codified way to enforce what started as religious principles. Contract law came essentially to bind by law a person to "be honest," and property law to do the same with "do not steal." Much of our legal system has at its foundation these essential principles.

Second, religious groups are often the best at doing the small things that most in this audience would never see: visiting people in prison who feel helpless and without support, feeding the homeless and funding shelters and support groups for the same, and providing free counseling services to those who cannot afford those services on their own. Religious groups are often the first on the scene when a natural disaster strikes. They get boots on the ground and food in people's bellies.

Finally, religious groups subsidize education and create schools. It is likely that at some point you benefited either directly or indirectly from this educational foundation, especially in the US. By doing this, organized religions help lift millions out of ignorance.

Organized religion is not what the media portrays. That is such an important idea, that perhaps an entire essay should be written just on that sentence.

Not all (or most) religious people kill people in the name of God, or create secret compounds where they can marry teenage girls and call it "God's work," or use religion to justify hatred/torture/war,etc. These things definitely exist, but the dosing you are fed by the media/popular culture is all wrong. It's like anything else - you only get fed the things that will bring page views, and those stories tend to be about very strange wings of religions.

Most religious people very quietly live ordinary lives and use their religious faith to find deeper meaning through self-sacrifice and service to others. But that wouldn't make a good story, so you don't read much about it.

Google is popularizing an alarming trend to treat religious groups like the "crazy uncle" who won't go away when I think they should instead realize that much of their own success (via the foundations mentioned above) is a direct or indirect result of the principles that organized religion has brought them. Google is benefiting from all that has been handed to them while spitting at the giver and potentially shutting off those gifts for future generations. I think that is an unfortunate mistake.

philh• 15 years ago

As an atheist who is mildly antireligious: that was a good article. The author has a position, but he dismisses crazy arguments in favor of it, and the arguments that he constructs are targetted towards the people most likely to disagree with him. He doesn't come across as self entitled. He doesn't make generalisations about atheists.

I haven't fully thought about his arguments; perhaps they don't really hold water. So I guess on some level I'm talking about form rather than content.

digibri• 15 years ago

I'm enjoying the debate of whether or not "religious institutions" (which I think is an important distinction from "religions") should or should not be considered non-profit entities. I personally feel that they should not be considered as such.

The only new reasoning I can add to the mix, is that quite simply, I personally feel "religious institutions" (again, not "religions" nor "faith") have too great a political power base in this country. I suspect that changing the tax rules on these institutions might in some small way shift the balance in a direction I feel is healthier for our nation's diverse culture.

Does anyone know if there are any lobbying rules that differ between non-profit and profit legal entities?

davvid• 15 years ago

Interesting story, but how is this hacker news? I thought we tried to avoid highly flammable topics like politics or religion.

Google removes religious organizations from non-profit discount list

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