How to grow monosodium glutamate (MSG) crystals

104 59 5 years ago

It’s cool but I was hoping it would talk about how to make your own MSG.

pessimizer3• 5 years ago

Yup, I'm sad that this won't further my dream of selling artisan MSG at farmer's markets. I could do a coarse "kosher" MSG, but that might taste terrible.

NikolaeVarius• 5 years ago

Just sell kombu salt like everyone else

thedougd• 5 years ago

An MSG grinder! Burr mill of course.

hazza_n_dazza3• 5 years ago

You can buy in bulk at chinese store and add some smoke flavour or paprika and wham! New Product! (Oh No!) :)

user_78325• 5 years ago

Probably not what you were looking for, but you can use yeast extract as a source of MSG. If I'm not mistaken some companies like McDonald's use this as a work-around.

Edit - apparently it is not banned in the US, though it is limited to 10g/kg of food in the EU. Sorry for the mistake, I could've swore I saw it banned somewhere.

Edit 2 - I think I was thinking about Sodium Cyclamte instead, a sweetener in the Non-US Sweet n Low variants amongst other uses.

arsome• 5 years ago

What? MSG is very commonly used in popular American snack foods, like Doritos, no need for a workaround and there's no ban on it.

userbinator• 5 years ago

Fun fact - MSG is completely banned in the US for use in food

Where did you read that? It would be all over the news if it was.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration has given MSG its generally recognized as safe (GRAS) designation

detritus3• 5 years ago

Yeah, as others have pointed out, that's not the case at all. It would be very surprising to hear, given the horrifying list of chemical additives I read on the ingredients of imported American food products.

chomp3• 5 years ago

MSG is completely banned in the US for use in food

Can you expand on this? I’m looking at a bag of Doritos in my pantry that has MSG as its 12th ingredient.

pessimizer3• 5 years ago

Nutritional yeast is basically the same thing if you need a powder. If you don't there are lots of common liquid options.

edit: if for some reason you just don't want to buy a shaker of MSG.

OJFord• 5 years ago

According to Wikipedia, modern industrial production is actually mainly by bacterial fermentation (perhaps because the earlier method produced hydrogen chloride), and it sounds probably doable: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jgam1955/3/3/3_3_193/_p...

Hard if you want to optimise yield (as you would industrially), but seems not so hard to happen across a yeast strain that will produce some glutamate.

ToniCipriani• 5 years ago

Uncle Roger's favourite science experiment.

jbirer• 5 years ago

Fuiyoh!

rob74• 5 years ago

Interesting - however I don't think I have ever seen "pure" MSG for sale here in Germany. Due to its bad reputation, it's only available as a part of various products which come either in liquid form (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maggi-W%C3%BCrze) or as "spice mixes" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegeta_(condiment)).

Faaak• 5 years ago

I got mine from amazon. It's perfect for asian/stir-fry dishes

myrmidon• 5 years ago

You can typically get this in most Asia shops, e.g.: https://goasia.net/onlineshop/sauce-oel-und-gewuerze/2728/mo...

krageon• 5 years ago

Any asian store will have it (as vetsin, for example). If you're really hard-pressed, you can go to the netherlands and buy bulk amounts from an asian store there.

jillesvangurp• 5 years ago

Supermarkets don't have a lot of things here in Berlin. But there are plenty of Asian stores. I bought some MSG a few months ago in a Pakistani shop that also sells a lot of other nice things that you are unlikely to get in most German supermarkets. If you are in Berlin, the shop is called Tariq and it is near the Gesundbrunnen station.

janfoeh• 5 years ago

I could have sworn that one of the usual suspects - Ostmann, Fuchs.. - used to sell it in small shakers you'll find in supermarket spice racks, but those seem to have disappeared.

You can buy it by the kg from Metro/Selgros, though.

newaccount74• 5 years ago

Here in Austria, I also think it's hilarious how cookbooks always lists "beef stock" in the ingredients, and then refer to a recipe for beef stock, but in reality everyone just uses soup powder (which is mostly salt, MSG, and fat).

And the funniest part is how some people claim they don't tolerate Asian food because of the glutamate, but when they eat at traditional Austrian restaurants they have absolutely no issue with all the glutamate in the beef soup.

Or how every steak restaurant has the chefs secret spice mix which is basically just some herbs mixed with a generous scoop of MSG.

Semaphor2• 5 years ago

Asia stores have it, Amazon sells it in bulk (I usually get 2.4kg at a time, I love MSG :D)

squidproquo• 5 years ago

I'm pretty sure you can get Knorr Aromat Seasoning in Europe. It's not pure MSG, but it does contain it (probably the main ingredient).

DamnInteresting• 5 years ago

Here in the USA it is most commonly sold on store shelves as "Accent". Worth noting: MSG is naturally occurring in some foods, such as cheese. And if you salt a tomato slice, a lot of MSG is produced.

MSG: The tastiest nocebo.

fcsprk• 5 years ago

I saw some for sale last time I was in an Asian shop here in Freiburg. Sold in 1 kg bags, looked like salt, made in France (which surprised me the most).

JRKrause• 5 years ago

Coming from a semiconductor crystal growth background, I really love these articles. I wonder what could be accomplished by further controlling the growth environment. From my understanding, the growth-rate of these crystals is limited by the availability of mass i.e. the slow evaporation of water out of the suspension liquid increases the MSG concentration which in turn makes condensation of MSG onto the seed crystal energetically favorable.

Generally, the most energetically favorable outcome is for these condensing molecules to incorporate into the 'ideal' location within the crystal lattice, forming a single-crystalline mass. From the images we can see condensation on walls of the container which indicates that 'non-ideal' incorporation is prevalent.

One way to combat this is to the raise the growth temperature, such that molecules that condense into non-single-crystalline locations are more likely to just dissolve back into the solution. Finding this optimal temperature where molecule-glass condensation is unlikely but molecule-crystal lattice is likely is, naturally, difficult.

Lots of nobs to turn in a process like this. It's fun to imagine how you might construct a proper growth reactor that allows more precise control of temperature and mass flux.

EricE4• 5 years ago

Reminds me of stuff I have seen in the 3D printing groups for controlled drying of 3D prints. With the plethora of sensors and cheap programmable controllers you could probably whip up a chamber that could control both heat and humidity without much trouble. A quick web search turned up this page: https://reprap.org/wiki/Heated_Build_Chamber

I'm sure with some more digging others already have designed chambers for controlling heat and humidity. Might be fun extension/dual use for 3D printing and crystal growing. Overlapping hobbies are the best!

abcd_f• 5 years ago

Yeah... about this whole crystal growing business.

A salt crystal growing guide from the same site was on the front page a couple (?) of months ago. Looked interesting and easy enough, so I gave it a try. So far it has been a complete fiasco second in scale only to my attempt at making pancakes at the ripe age of 5. Pretty much I just got salt back so far, lol.

So, caveat emptor.

durkie• 5 years ago

One very passive method that has worked well for me in the past was to prepare a highly-concentrated salt solution (5M -- 292 g salt per liter of water) and then let the water evaporate very slowly (like only slightly open to the outside world) and left undisturbed. This left me with a roughly 2cm x 2cm x 1cm crystal of salt that is incredibly transparent (save small impurities in the center) with nice cubic features on the broad face.

analog31• 5 years ago

I know some synthetic chemists, and getting some new compound that they've made, to grow into a crystal, is a huge thing. With a good crystal, you can get a molecular structure from X-Ray crystallography. Also, crystallizing something and washing away the solvent, was a way to purify a compound.

The chemists talked about all sorts of rituals and superstitions, to coax a compound to crystallize. Usually it was just in good fun, something to talk about when a particular compound was being stubborn.

With drug compounds, a different crystal structure of the same compound is a different drug. And complicated compounds can have multiple stable structures. Getting particular crystal structures to grow reliably in large quantities is a big deal for the drug business.

So it's definitely more than a hobby, but yet everybody enjoys seeing these nice big crystals.

mchanson• 5 years ago

I use MSG in almost all of my savory cooking at home. Highly underrated flavor enhancer.

smegsicle• 5 years ago

does it provide any big opportunities if you've already got something like worchestershiresauce?

dekhn• 5 years ago

yes, it doesn't contain 900 other things like sugar, rotting fish, extra flavorings so you can make things that are much cleaner tasting.

hazza_n_dazza3• 5 years ago

OMG thats soo yummy!!! // Followed by a night of headaches and sleeplessness. I understand not everyone gets the side effects though.

JaggerFoo• 5 years ago

I can imagine the reaction from Venice Beach,CA vegans to an MSG crystal vendor on the boardwalk.

First "Oooh cool crystals, I use crystals to keep my chakras aligned. What kind are they?"

"MSG????" They quickly walk away, their sandals with white socks never moved faster.

Cheers

hbarka2• 5 years ago

How did MSG get such a bad rap? The anti-MSG marketing was really strong and even made its way into pop culture. I can think of a few other controversies where there was a corporate food lobby behind the marketing, whether to vilify or promote, with lasting effects for many years. What is good versus bad?Butter, Margarine, coconut oil, corn oil, vegetable oils, meat (keto), carbs vs no-carbs, milk protein as cancer catalyst. Coffee gets assailed every now and then, and then a counter study would appear. Blue zones, caloric restriction, etc etc.

sosborn• 5 years ago

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/16/dining/msg-chinese-restau...

zackmorris• 5 years ago

Another one I discovered is the glorification of almonds.

Tree nuts are inflammatory, which I didn't realize could get me, and almond butter kicked off the digestive issues I started getting in 2018. I believe what happened is that I was chronically dehydrated, drinking too much alcohol due to work stress, and eating a harsh diet of legumes and nightshades as part of a low-budget workout diet. That weakened my gut lining enough that the bad stuff got into my blood while my body was trying to absorb water from the intestines, which triggered an autoimmune response. I believe a similar mechanism happens with gluten, which cascades into an autoimmune response to protein in the thyroid. So the cost difference between cheap foods made of fillers like gluten/sugar/etc and high end/organic food is eventual autoimmune disease and obesity.

Pumpkin seeds are so much better. But of course, anyone can grow pumpkins. Where's the profit? $$$

For anyone dealing with digestive issues, this quite literally saved my health (no affiliation):

https://www.naturespath.com/en-us/products/natures-path-food...

Brussels sprouts, switching from wheat to rice, digestive enzymes, psyllium husk capsules and cutting dairy and other inflammatory foods by half put my symptoms into remission.

I took the Everlywell (again no affiliation) test of 200+ foods which showed the smoking guns of almonds and dairy in my immune response:

https://www.everlywell.com

hbarka2• 5 years ago

I can relate. I went keto long term and lost a significant amount of weight but I started getting GERD and alopecia. Long story short I was experiencing autoimmune cycles. My cortisol and other stress hormone levels were also swinging. It’s hard to pinpoint what affected my gut health but I couldn’t sustain keto and you might say fell off the wagon back to my normal carb ratios. My hair is back and other issues gone. I’m no longer doing keto but now focusing more on caloric restrictions. I believe what’s good for me is probably on a very personal genetic level. I will check out Everlywell, thank you.

EricE4• 5 years ago

"Tree nuts are inflammatory" Really? That sounded surprising to me so I did some quick searching - the only pages I could find denigrating tree nuts seemed to be selling their own healt products. Everything else I found (especially from government or academic sites) seemed to universally categorize tree nuts as being anti-inflammatory.

What a contradiction?

hazza_n_dazza3• 5 years ago

This post does look like an advertisment. I think there may be something in it for some people, so make sure you link to some evidence or provide a more personal and link free account.

EricE4• 5 years ago

That whole site is very well done and worth exploring. I'm pretty sure a previous HN story lead me to it last year and even inspired me to grow a few sugar crystals.

How to grow monosodium glutamate (MSG) crystals

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