P vs NP on simple english wikipedia - feedback, please

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_versus_NP

by MarkPNeyer • 15 years ago

93 59 15 years ago

simple.wikipedia.org

buff-a2• 15 years ago

My 2c: Don't write "Problems in P", write "P Problems".

Also you definition of "why its interesting" conflicts with the other Wikipedia page which says:

The P versus NP problem is a major unsolved problem in computer science. Informally, it asks whether every problem whose solution can be efficiently checked by a computer can also be efficiently solved by a computer.

MarkPNeyer13• 15 years ago

i'm not sure i see the conflict... care to elaborate?

buff-a2• 15 years ago

He's changed it =)

This is what it said originally: That means they would like to know if there are any problems where the answer cannot easily be found by a computer, but if someone says he has the answer, it is easy to use a computer to check if that answer is correct.

DanWaterworth• 15 years ago

I think you might be missing the point of the simple English wikipedia. It's the vocabulary that you use that is simple, not the way in which you express the concepts.

Singletoned2• 15 years ago

I somewhat agree. For example why use a term like 'mass', when 'size' or 'weight' would be much simpler.

lamby• 15 years ago

and wrong

rmc• 15 years ago

Exactly. I was suprised why someone would use "mass" in a simple english wikipedia

MarkPNeyer13• 15 years ago

i debated this one a lot. on the one hand, people are more likely to recognize the word weight, but on the other hand, weight isn't an inherent property of objects, and (to be overly pedantic) two rocks of equal mass, one at the top of the tower, and one at the bottom, will have difference weights.

tspiteri• 15 years ago

The Simple English Wikipedia is also for people with different needs. Readers may be students, children, and adults who may find it hard to learn, and people who are trying to learn English. Other people use the Simple English Wikipedia because the simple language helps them understand difficult ideas or topics they do not know about.

From: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_English_Wikipedia

jarin• 15 years ago

I think this generally does a good job of simplifying the terminology without falling into "durr, people who don't speak English natively are dumb" territory.

DiabloD3• 15 years ago

I agree. Simple errs towards 5 year olds, not people whos native language is not English, as they have their own wikipedias.

peteretep• 15 years ago

Your example at the end - you should go in to less detail about the number of combinations, and more in to how it's easy for a computer to check the right answer has been reached.

generelativity• 15 years ago

This. It's a really great example, but you never make the full connection by explaining that it's easy to check that 2 towers have the same mass.

iand• 15 years ago

The page says people "would like to know if there are any problems that are easy for computers to see if a one person's answer is correct, but hard for computers to find a correct answer." However the example given seems to answer this question in the affirmative: it's a problem that's easy to check using a set of scales, but very hard to find a correct answer.

MarkPNeyer13• 15 years ago

maybe the example needs to be more clear - it's hard for the computer to check all possible answers, but maybe it's easy for the computer to find the answer another way.

evandijk70• 15 years ago

I liked the article!

I would mention that it is part of the millenium problems and the one million dollar prize that comes with it.

hypersoar• 15 years ago

I suggest emphasizing that problems that can be solved easily can be checked easily. It's a simple idea, but it wouldn't necessarily occur to the casual reader and is quite important.

ilcavero• 15 years ago

agreed that the example is not the best, a better example would be a picture puzzle that can be verified in just a glance but to build it you need to test all pieces against each other to see if they match.

mitko• 15 years ago

Picture puzzle is in P because you can build the puzzle incrementally in quadratic time

rnadna• 15 years ago

Many people find it difficult to see which of two large numbers is greater, unless they are reading on paper and take up a pencil and count the groups of three. This issue must come up a lot in simple-English. The solution is to introduce scientific notation, and to have a link to that. (As has been pointed out, mass is a tricky word, being used here.) Perhaps another method would be to invent something quirky, saying perhaps "4+(20 digits)" or something.

In this particular case, there is another solution: do not quote the individual numbers, but only their ratio. Anyone can tell that "1000" is big and "1/1000" is small, because all that's needed is to see if there are more than two or so digits.

Udo3• 15 years ago

  Many people want to know if there are any NP problems that are not P Problems. 
  That means they would like to know if there are any problems where the answer 
  is hard to find, but if someone says he has the answer, it is easy to check 
  if that answer is correct.

This is probably the core of the article, but I find it misleading. The truth is that we need to either prove that the answer to a certain problem will always be hard to find (hence proving that P =/= NP) or we need to prove that all NP problems have in theory a P algorithm (P = NP). We currently have many NP (="easily" verifiable) problems that have no known solving algorithm in polynomial time. The evidence would so far suggest that P =/= NP, but this is empirical not mathematical. It's possible that all those non-P problems have some way to resolve them in P, but it doesn't look like it right now.

I would thus rephrase the core explanation as something like this:

"For problems where the correct answer can be checked easily, there are two possibilities: If (P = NP) is correct, that means there is always an easy way to come up with a solution no matter how complicated the problem is. If the opposite is correct (P =/= NP), there are some problems where the answer will always be difficult to find no matter how clever the solution is. We don't know yet which one of these possibilities is true."

MarkPNeyer13• 15 years ago

the lack of a known polynomial time algorithm could be interpreted as evidence that P =/= NP, but it could just as easily be interpreted as evidence of our primitive state of knowledge with regard to algorithms. Suppose that P = NP, but the minimum complexity of any NP-Complete problem is O(n^(# of atoms in the universe)); we might never discover such a complicated algorithm, but that in no way implies it doesn't exist.

still, i see your point, but i think your phrasing is too complicated; i've changed it to this:

  It is known that all P problems are NP problems; the proof
  requires math which is too complicated for this article but 
  may be explained in the future. Many people want to know if
  there are any NP problems that are not P Problems. That 
  means they would like to know if there are any problems
  where the answer cannot easily be found by a computer, but
  if someone says he has the answer, it is easy to use
  a computer to check if that answer is correct.

Udo3• 15 years ago

I like mine better ;-)

Your idea about the the primitive state of our algorithm knowledge is interesting. This has nothing to do with the article, but I do believe there are deep philosophical implications here. If we knew (and could make use of the fact) that everything is P, it would fundamentally shift our relationship with reality. I would go so far as to say that P =/= NP is an instinctive model we have formed about the universe as it presents itself today. If this were to change, it would affect pretty much everything we're doing - I can't even begin to imagine what would happen on the day abstract problem solving becomes a P algorithm...

Triumvark• 15 years ago

  P problems are considered 'easy' for computers to solve. NP problems are considered easy for computers to check the answers to them.

To improve clarity:

1. Avoid putting pronouns far from the main noun.

2. Use simple sentences. Reduce the number of verbs and prepositional phrases per sentence.

3. Avoid scare quotes. If you need to qualify a term, do so explicitly.

Consider, for the above:

NP problems have answers which can be easily checked. P problems can be easily solved.

(Maybe precede or follow with a quick definition of what you mean by 'easy.' But I'm not sure it's necessary here.)

mseebach2• 15 years ago

I wonder if there is a good way to explain that the nature of these problems is to find any and all exact solutions to the puzzle and that the 95% solution which is vastly easier and entirely sufficient for any practical application (in terms of the given examples) is NOT interesting.

E.g.: Travelling sales-person: In terms of P/NP, she doesn't care if she can as much as if there is any possible route she might take that is even an inch shorter than the one she can fairly trivially plan out.

MarkPNeyer13• 15 years ago

your claim that a 95% solution is entirely sufficient only applies to numerical optimization problems. every numerical optimization problem has a corresponding decision problem, and an algorithm that could solve these decision problems would be tremendously useful. think about circuit satisfiablility; if you're building an airplane, you want to know if the circuits for the airplane could ever cause the engines to shut off mid-flight. the concept of an approximation algorithm is meaningless here; either you know the answer, or you don't.

kamaal3• 15 years ago

Although I understand what your are trying to say here.

But the problems you tend to describe never exist in the real world either. What I mean to say is, you can never be Boolean sure about anything in the real world as you can never control all the parameters yourself.

Which in case you are always going to measure things in percentages like x% safer or y% safer.

I guess that's what the parent poster tends to imply.

andrewcooke2• 15 years ago

i guess the article is currently being edited, but at the moment it isn't so clear what is common and what different between the two groups. i think it would be better if the motivation came earlier:

  solving a problem is sometimes harder than checking you have the right answer.  
  for example, it is easy to check that you have the secret key to a code.  you 
  can decode a message and see the original text.  but it is hard to find the key 
  if you do not know it.

  so the problem of finding the key to a code is much harder than checking whether a 
  key is correct.  other problems can be easy to solve and to check.  for example,
  adding 2 and 2 is both easy to solve and to check.

  this difference can be used to divide problems into two groups.  these groups are 
  called P and NP.  it is easy to check the answers for problems in both groups, 
  but only problems in group P are easy to solve.

  the problem of adding two numbers is in P, because it is easy to solve and to 
  check. the problem finding a secret key to a code is in NP because is is easy to 
  check but hard to solve.

i know my writing isn't simple enough here, but an approach like the above makes it easier to understand the relationship between them. in particular, the commonality between the two groups is emphasised.

Wilduck• 15 years ago

I had a similar response to the article, but I can see at least one reason why this explanation doesn't fit. Despite any inclinations we may have P vs. NP is still unsolved. So, claiming that a problem is in NP is "easy to check but hard to solve" is not necessarily true (if P == NP, it is both easy to check and to solve).

The original article does a good job of not making this assumption, and because of this gains the ability to pose the question:

> Many people want to know if there are any NP problems that are not P Problems

andrewcooke2• 15 years ago

hmmm. it's true that my text is wrong in that way, but couldn't you fix it with a "maybe" or "appear" and then explain the open question afterwards? or maybe the conditional nature of the text then becomes too complex?

kamaal3• 15 years ago

I came from an electronics background when I first started reading algorithms my head was spinning. And I am sure a lot of other novices/laymen from the same problem.

The reason I have seen over the years is simple. Expressing the problems in terms of mathematical equations. Mathematical equations some how denote a way of modifying elements through equations. They tend to build on existing established principles of maths. There fore in order to understand what the other person is saying a person must get into a high learning curve.

When I first read about P Vs NP problem, I really wasn't able to co relate it to anything in the real world. Later on as I read more on puzzles like The Bin packing problem, or the traveling salesman problems. Things began to make sense.

The way to explain people about such things is to give them problems defined in simple English. And then allow them to build their own way of representing objects and elements, and the way they choose to modify them. Like this article does, However while explaining to people start from very small input sizes. Help them work out outputs for large input sizes.

Given the problem at hand, explain them why such large computation time doesn't make sense in the physical world.

Representing the problem in pure math will never help the guy next to your home. Giving him a day to day use case, will force him to think.

So here we go, what all common every day use cases fit into the P Vs NP problem? If we can create such a list, a lot more laymen can think and build on those problems easily!

Is there such a list lurking somewhere?

MarkPNeyer13• 15 years ago

doubtful. a programmer could spend an entire career in industry and never run into an np complete problem he needed to solve.

i added more examples to the article, and made them as simple and practical sounding as possible, but to be honest my primary interest in the problem is mostly from a theoretical perspective. to me, the idea that P != NP implies a host of bizarre conclusions that seem incredibly unlikely to me. i am so convinced of this that i had it emblazoned my license plate:

http://www.markpneyer.com/wp/about-me/

kamaal3• 15 years ago

Thanks Mark,

Good work Indeed.

Can you please explain why you think P=NP. I am deeply interested in knowing about them.

brent• 15 years ago

I think your subset sum problem (the rock piles) is decent. However, for it to be useful I think you have to make it clear which class it is in (NP) and why (it is easy to check a solution and 2^n is not polynomial in n).

nsimplex• 15 years ago

You might want to mention P VS NP is similar to the following scenario: people feel they can identify a piece of art (say a painting) as being of merit very quickly just by seeing it; but won't be able to come up with any piece of equal merit even if they had all the time in the world.

prtk• 15 years ago

Rating 3/10. I don't think this article is written by someone who knows the topic well.

e.g. you don't too complicated math as claimed in this line:

>> It is known that all P problems are NP problems; the proof requires math which is too complicated for this article but may be explained in the future.

For P problems can be solved easily and then the solution can be easily verified. This means all P problems are NP problems too.

Good news!! Better Article Exists. Read: http://cstheory.stackexchange.com/questions/5188/explain-p-n...

MarkPNeyer13• 15 years ago

I would agree that the math required is not 'complicated' from the point of view of anyone with basic understanding of discrete logic, but it's certainly too complicated to express in simple english terms that are understandable at the level i was shooting for.

if you want to do the proof that all problems in P are also in NP, you have to explain the notion of a decision problem and show that any np-complete numerical optimization problem can be converted to a decision problem without increasing its computational complexity by more than a function bounded by a polynomial.

someone named 'balabiot' changed the article by adding an incorrect 'proof' that P is a subset of NP, at the same time you made this post. the incorrect proof reads:

  All P problems are NP problems: if a problem is easy to 
  solve, to check an answer you just solve it and check that 
  the results match.

this invalid proof makes the assumption that an np-complete problem has a single solution. many np-complete problems have multiple solutions; there many be many ways to pack the knapsack, color the graph, or satisfy the boolean circuit. if you are presented with a valid solution, but the algorithm you use to solve the problem instance produces a different, but also valid solution, your comparison would fail.

note that simply solving the problem (because it is in p) is NOT the same thing as verifying a solution correct.

ableal• 15 years ago

A picture like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Exponential.svg would help.

To rub it in, the x axis should go to 20 or so, e.g. http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2**x+vs.+x**2+%28x+from...

robrenaud• 15 years ago

I dislike the common implication that NP complete means "the stupidest brute force thing is the best way we know how to solve the problem." For example, meet in the middle will turn subset sum from 2^n to 2^(n/2).

MarkPNeyer13• 15 years ago

i agree that there are a lot of problems, but the goal of this article was to make the topic as simple as possible. any simplification of a complex, mathematical construct will invariably result in hand-waving and undefined terms; i tried my best to keep those to a minimum. i plan to expand the article in the future, to clarify some mathematical details. thanks for the feedback, though.

orenmazor• 15 years ago

I see posting this here as a mistake. You should post it somewhere where people dont know anything about it. Posting it here will result in us adding more and more detail, possibly making it more complicated.

I used to use my grandmother as a subject for testing out paper abstracts/intros for this reason. She could barely figure out scrolling.

prof_hobart2• 15 years ago

As someone who has an interest in this kind of thing, but very little in the way of formal education on it (my last formal maths education was my 'A' levels around 25 years ago), I'm possibly the exact target audience for this article.

Given that, I thought it was very helpful. I've read a whole host of attempts to explain it before, and they rapidly descend into 1000 other mathematical concepts that I don't fully understand and end up reading about instead of the actual P v NP issue.

The one bit that I think is missing is a better explanation of what's meant by "easy" in this context. Clearly a problem that takes more than the life of the universe to solve is likely to classify as hard. But what about if it was solvable in a year, or a minute, or a second? My vague understanding is that there's not really a "less than 5 seconds to solve"-type cutoff, and that it's actually to do with "nondeterministic polynomial time". But at that point I disappear into one of the mathematical things that I don't really grasp.

MarkPNeyer13• 15 years ago

i agree, it could use more math. i plan to add that in; my concern is that i don't want to scare people away.

prof_hobart2• 15 years ago

I would offer a suggestion, but I just had another go on the Wikipedia version and I honestly don't have a clue what it's telling me. I think I get what non-deterministic means, but then I'm totally flummoxed as to what that has to do with problems whose solution can be quickly verified.

DanielRibeiro• 15 years ago

It seems to be missing the philosophical introduction to what P = NP means [1]:

If P=NP, then the world would be a profoundly different place... Everyone who could appreciate a symphony would be Mozart

[1] http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=122

camtarn• 15 years ago

This sentence doesn't read quite right to me: "Most mathematicians also believe that are any NP problems that are not P problems."

It feels like there are a couple of words missing, but I'm reluctant to guess at them and potentially change the meaning of the sentence.

aperiodic• 15 years ago

The real difficult part of explaining this concept to the layperson is getting them to understand what asymptotic complexity is. The example I always use when I explain this to people with little or no math or computer science background is sorting algorithms, explained using the following example of a deck of cards. Everybody's familiar with a deck of cards, and it doesn't take much more math than the most intuitive bits statistics.

Imagine I give you a deck of perfectly shuffled (i.e. uniformly distributed) cards, and decree that you need to find the ace of spades. What you have to do is go through each card one-by-one, and stop when you've found it. You'll have to look at, on average, 26 cards, since there are 52 cards in the deck, and each card has an equal chance of being the ace of spades. Now, let's say I add another 52 cards, this time with a defaced ace of spades, and wanted you to find the original (non-defaced) ace of spades, which is now just one card out of 104. On average, this'll take 52 cards.

Notice that when I double the amount of cards I gave you, the amount of work (that is, looking at cards) you had to do also doubles, meaning that for N cards, the amount of work is N/2. When the amount of work is directly related to the number of cards, excluding dividing or multiplying by a number that does not depend on the number of cards (in this example, dividing by 2), then we simplify things and say that this process for finding the Ace of Spades takes BigO(N) work to finish.

Now, imagine I give you that same deck, and instead of demanding that you find the ace of spades, I require you to sort it out into suits, with the cards in each suit in increasing order. One way to do this is to keep a separate pile for each suit, with that pile in increasing order. Deciding where to put the first card of each suit is easy, you just make a new pile for it. The later cards are not as easy, since you have to go through the pile and find the right place to put the new card.

Right away you can tell that this sorting takes more work from you than finding the ace of spades does. Instead of just looking at each card to see if it's the ace of spades, you first have to check the suit of the card to determine which pile it should go in. Then, you have to look through that pile for the proper place to insert the card. I won't go into the math, but it turns out the best way to sort a deck of cards into piles of suits[1] like this takes N * lgN work, where lgN is a fancy number that isn't constant, but gets bigger when N gets bigger, unlike the division by 2 in the ace of spades example. That means that sorting cards is harder than finding the ace of spades.

This business of determining how hard tasks like sorting cards are is called "analyzing the complexity" of a task. Except, instead of saying task, computer scientists like to say "function." The question of whether or not P = NP is a question about whether a certain kind of tasks called "deterministic Polynomial" tasks (which are referred to by the P) are as hard as another kind of tasks called "Non-deterministic Polynomial" tasks (referred to by the NP).

I have a second part that tries to explain the difference between determinism and non-determinism using a magic deck of cards where we can always draw the card that we want (the "magic" deck is, of course, merely a "non-deterministic" deck), but I've already spend an hour or so writing this first part up. I can post the second part of the explanation tomorrow, if folks are interested.

[1]: This is meant to be a memory constraint. Obviously, radix sort takes linear time too if the key sizes are constant, but has a memory overhead of N. As far as I'm aware–and please correct me if I'm wrong–the fastest sorting algorithms with constant memory overhead are comparison-based sorting algorithms, which take N lgN time. But, even if I am wrong, it's incidental to the main purpose of the explanation.

P vs NP on simple english wikipedia - feedback, please

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