S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

https://www.reuters.com/technology/skorea-parliament-committee-votes-curb-google-apple-commission-dominance-2021-08-25/

by _pgdo • 5 years ago

256 112 5 years ago

reuters.com

baybal22• 5 years ago

In other news: JY Lee has just came out from behind the bars.

lifty3• 5 years ago

What is the connection to this piece of news?

lozenge• 5 years ago

Samsung is a somewhat bigger issue for S Korea than Apple and Google, but it's domestic so it gets a pass.

baybal22• 5 years ago

Maybe he wants to get Apple's, and Google's cut of the pie?

amelius• 5 years ago

Maybe to remark that SK doesn't always act in favor of their own companies/CEOs?

jefftk• 5 years ago

Based on South Korean parliament records, the amendment bans app store operators with dominant market positions from forcing payment systems on content providers and "inappropriately" delaying the review of, or deleting, mobile contents from app markets.

It also allows the South Korean government to require an app market operator to "prevent damage to users and protect the rights and interests of users", probe app market operators, and mediate disputes regarding payment, cancellations or refunds in the app market.

ClumsyPilot2• 5 years ago

It's clear the days of this oligopoly operating unchallanged are numbered.

I dont know a single person outside of the SV bubble who is buying 'mah free market!' argument so prevalent here.

misnome• 5 years ago

I dont know a single person outside of the SV bubble who is buying 'mah free market!' argument so prevalent here.

Most of the arguments I've seen here, that you are probably classifying under this aspersion, are probably some variant on:

- This doesn't look illegal under current (US) laws

- New laws to restrict this are hard to write constitutionally (in the US)

- If this happens a lot of the good parts of the ecosystem get thrown out also (arguments through security, fraud)

Whereas an awful lot of the other side looks like "This is unfair so must be illegal!" (30% arguments, very narrow definitions of the word "monopoly" that favour the arguer). Very few seem to actually argue that anything Apple/Google have done are illegal under current laws. I don't think the segment you are attacking for pure "It is free market therefore good" ideology exists.

It'll be interesting to see what happens if/when other countries, who aren't tied by the same conditions, start restricting this stuff.

realmod• 5 years ago

It's clear the days of this oligopoly operating unchallanged are numbered.

Funnily enough, South Korea is a country essentially full of monopolies almost as large as the state.

pjmlp2• 5 years ago

Nope, since it is South Korea, it is obvious Samsung is at play here.

vineyardmike• 5 years ago

I dont know a single person outside of the SV bubble who is buying 'mah free market!' argument so prevalent here.

No one i know outside of SV bubble has even thought about this issue at all. Most immediately say "isn't it good that apple protects people?" and gives it no more thought.

As much as businesses would love it, i think attacking apple is still a hard political sell.

NonContro2• 5 years ago

What about Steam? They control 90% of PC gaming and even charge regressive commissions, with higher rates for smaller developers.

lifty3• 5 years ago

Steam doesn't own the underlying platforms that they are selling on. This is the biggest issue for me regarding Apple. Even with Android, at least you have some escape hatches, although they are not very user friendly.

anaganisk• 5 years ago

May be because gaming industry is not as important as yet as a the device that is used by almost majority of the world population? Also no one is forcing anyone to install steam. And steam is not the only way to get games to work as intended on your PC.

suifbwish• 5 years ago

Sounds like an unrelated topic designed to get people to not focus on the main Google and apple topic. There are dozens of industries that could be broken up but aren’t. Take D*sney’s near monopoly on comic book/fictional characters/plotlines ect. No one bats an eye about that, why would anyone care about steam? It’s all just entertainment. Google and Apple aren’t just about entertainment as they touch almost every part of life in modern society.

paulryanrogers• 5 years ago

Actually I'd say Disney cornering so much of childhood entertainment is a concern.

cblconfederate3• 5 years ago

bans app store operators with dominant market positions from forcing payment systems on content providers and "inappropriately" delaying the review of, or deleting, mobile contents from app markets.

Does steam block or make it hard for people to download the same programs via other means? looks more like a premium platform rather than a gatekeeper.

pranau• 5 years ago

This seems like a disingenuous whataboutism. You are free to not use Steam as a publisher. You can use Epic/GOG or choose to self-host. The biggest advantage of Steam is the convenience of payments, marketing and infrastructure. If that is not an attractive option for you, you can skip it. This option is not available for iOS at all and is quite limited on Android.

tpmx• 5 years ago

Do they really control 90%?

This four year old article puts Steam game sales revenue at 13% of the total PC gaming sales revenue (and 18% of digital sales revenue):

https://www.pcgamesn.com/steam-revenue-2017

Couldn't find any newer stats, but surely it hasn't grown from 13% to 90% in just four years?

eropple• 5 years ago

That article doesn't make sense to me, even (or especially) in 2017. It sounds like it's conflating IAP (which doesn't have to go through the Steam store, unlike other platforms) with game purchases, but even that doesn't fully account for it to me.

Where's all the rest of the money supposedly going through?

NonContro2• 5 years ago

According to Tim Sweeney, yes:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattperez/2020/01/14/epic-games...

"Exclusives have been critical in gaining momentum in the presence of a competitor that began 2019 with more than 90% market share"

nkrisc• 5 years ago

There may be issues with Steam's hold of market share (or not), I won’t debate that. But I don’t think it’s comparable at all to the topic at hand. If you want to sell a video game to PC (personal computer, not necessarily Windows) users, there are many options besides Steam and Steam has no special position of privilege on any platform it's available on (Windows, Mac OS, Linux). You could still distribute your game by CD if you wanted to and it would work as well as any game bought on Steam. There are also many other digital games distribution platforms. They may not be as popular as Steam, but Steam has no inherent advantage over them. On a Windows PC, for example, Steam has no advantage over Origin, or GOG Galaxy, or any other.

Its popularity is due to other factors, not some privileged position it occupies. Unlike Google’s or Apple’s app stores which absolutely have a privileged position on their respective platforms.

Ekaros• 5 years ago

What about Amazon? Or any other dominant player in any market?

Steam does not come pre-installed on nearly every device unlike Apple's and Googles offering. Future Steam Deck not withstanding, but that will be miniscule player.

They don't prevent any other store from operating. So I don't see how they are comparable to anything Google or Apple does. Windows Store might qualify if they forced themselves on Windows in same way. But certainly Steam is entirely different.

fragileone• 5 years ago

Even the Steam Deck is just a Arch Linux device, so you can install any games store like Epic or Origin or GOG on there if you want.

Unlike the Google Play Store which gets special access to APIs that other app stores cannot use.

lunarboy3• 5 years ago

Steam is not really big enough in Korea to be on the radar. Single player pc games aren't really that popular, and the dominant ones like LoL or other MMO RPGs have their separate installer/launchers

madeofpalk2• 5 years ago

Steam has competition - Epic Game Store, Windows, or direct distribution. It is a lot more feasible for a consumer to switch between these stores, so there can be an effective market that choses which service to use.

This does not exist for iOS because there's no other stores on the platform, and you cannot "just" switch to another the Play Store.

3np• 5 years ago

I don't know if it's still the case but last I was in SK, there were no walking directions on Google Maps. My understanding was that Google was prohibited to incorporate this in order to favor local competitors.

rntksi4• 5 years ago

That is correct. Also Google Maps accuracy in SK (can only speak for Seoul, Busan) is not as good as the South Korean ones. Which is not the case for most other countries.

We learned that we had to use Naver map :-)

pcurve• 5 years ago

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/one-thing-north-k...

"Following the Korean War, the Spatial Data Industry Promotion Act and the Promotion of Military Bases and Installations Act were put in place to bar the export of map data outside the country. This is presumably to prevent sensitive information from falling into the wrong hands, especially given the hostility from north of the DMZ. Inevitably, however, the national security measure also has the effect of limiting foreign companies’ presence in online mapping and navigation.

Google stores its maps on foreign servers and therefore has not been allowed access to South Korea’s map data. In 2016, South Korean officials offered to hand their country’s map data over to Google under the condition that the tech company reduce map resolutions for important landmarks like military outposts and government offices. Google turned down the offer. So, streets and buildings remain low-resolution online and on the app.

These restrictions apply to Apple Maps as well. Its mapping services are even more rudimentary."

space_rock2• 5 years ago

Funny side effects is the navigation and cruise controls in foreign cars don't work. They will set the wrong speed limits and cruise at the wrong speed. I guess it helps the local businesses tho

cblconfederate3• 5 years ago

Took way too long

bemmu• 5 years ago

If you wanted to trade on the growing likelihood that they'll be forced to cut fees, which companies will benefit the most? For example Match Inc. gets most of their revenue from Tinder, so any savings would go directly to their bottom line.

cblconfederate3• 5 years ago

probably prices will drop to match the new reality

rntksi4• 5 years ago

In that case I wouldn't look for the ones that benefit from having a slight decrease in their Costs (like the Match Inc example you mentioned). The advantage won't translate explosively in stocks (assuming you are talking about that)

I would look for the ones that are ready to launch "the next Apple Store" which will compete directly with Apple and become #2 in market share of apps revenue in a few years. Those ones will be much more profitable to trade on.

yuvalr12• 5 years ago

This is a move on the right direction, and is better than nothing.

However, I think that a better move is to force HW platforms (maybe starting at a certain magnitude) to let the users use any software market they desire. This way Apple and Google can continue forcing the apps on their own markets to use their payment systems and "keep the users safe", while the other markets can do whatever they like

oever• 5 years ago

I would go further: software should always be optional in any hardware purchase and the price of hardware with software should be higher than the price of the hardware alone. Discount bundles with software + hardware should not be allowed. So no iPhone + iOS or laptop + Windows as one item.

Selling hardware and software separately ensures that the hardware can be repurposed with independently sourced software. That gives control to the user and reduces e-waste.

This should include 'firmware'. The benefit for the manufacturer is that they can charge for software updates. But the consumer can choose to get the update from elsewhere.

fsflover• 5 years ago

So basically what Pine64 is doing.

oshiar53-0• 5 years ago

The real issue here is DRM and nonstandard/undocumented* platform interface (e.g. fixed attestation keys and tamper-protected chips preventing efficient RE work). Even if they manage to comply, competitors (even free software options) would still be locked out of market and the no-OS option would be next to useless to average users.

*edit

throwaway59553• 5 years ago

This is such an awful take. First of all 95% of consumers have no idea about how software and hardware works, they'd have to install the OS, drivers and basic programs. Most consumers value commodity above all, and they are more than willing to pay for it.

rntksi4• 5 years ago

What does HW mean here? Handheld Wearable?

Would that mean letting e.g. Sony PS5 devices allow homebrew markets to be used legally on their consoles? That would be awesome for the consumers.

saganus• 5 years ago

'Hardware' probably

yuvalr12• 5 years ago

Yeah... Maybe hardware is a bit broader than what I had in my mind. My thoughts currently are "if it has one app market, then it has to have more".

I didn't mean firmware. This sounds like an interesting discussion for another day...

1-6• 5 years ago

Remember Windows K or Windows KN? These were specifically made for the Korean market in the days when Windows Media Player or Windows Messenger were blocked by the Korean FTC because of its dominant position. You'll probably see something similar to keep the Korean government happy.

sagarm• 5 years ago

Android already supports installing third party apps that can install other apps. For example, the Humble Bundle installer.

meibo2• 5 years ago

Interesting to note here is that SK has a healthy local "online services" industry.

They have their own Google equivalents, like Naver, that have comparable(and sometimes better because optimized to SK) services and don't have that much of an incentive to keep Google "happy".

dkdbejwi383• 5 years ago

Could you list examples of the local equivalents that are in common use?

I know of Naver maps https://m.map.naver.com

nvrspyx• 5 years ago

I don't really have a list, but in addition to maps, Naver also has search, email, calendar, cloud storage, etc.

neom• 5 years ago

Naver (search), Kakao(message+maps+transit), Daum(search/blogs etc), Coupang(online ordering), Shuttle Food Delivery / Yogiyo (uber eats) - few examples.

meibo2• 5 years ago

Naver runs a wide variety of services you'd expect, like payments, an online translator, a Yahoo Answers equivalent, messaging(LINE, which is ubiquitous not just in SK), a free blog offering, a search engine and a web browser.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naver_Corporation#Products_a...

rmac• 5 years ago

Kakao: Wechat/Uber

Ahnlab: Symantec/Norton

Hancom: Microsoft Office

Snow: Snapchat

Melon: Spotify

Cyworld: Myspace

Afreeka: Twitch

Toss: Venmo

NCSoft: Blizzard

Coupang: Amazon

Carrot: Ebay

Daum: Google/Medium

lunarboy3• 5 years ago

Local online services yes, but healthy I think is debatable. Kakao is quickly spreading its influence beyond just information technology. Messenger, search, payments, banking, blogging, maps, taxi, webtoon, celebrity management, music, character goods, games, golf, etc.

mc323• 5 years ago

It seems the time has arrived for each country where international services have a market presence to have regulators who regulate how they operate in country.

It makes little sense that US or Chinese laws or customs should be applied world-wide.

Countries should exercise their own rights and not cede them to corporations who are voracious for profit and occasionally dabble in cultural imperialism and quite frequently detract vast amounts of personal data from citizens to the benefit of the companies.

Clewza313• 5 years ago

South Korea has been regulating its Internet with an iron fist for a long time, with dubious results. For many years, IE was de facto the only browser because the only authorized sign-in method for govt services relied on an ActiveX plugin, and to this date the functionality of eg Google Maps in Korea is crippled because laws regulating maps force all map data and associated services to be in Korea.

mc323• 5 years ago

Perhaps if more counties required corps to house their citizens’ data locally, they would be better served.

The EU is requiring this, though it EU wide, Russia, and China when it allows them to operate at all.

Coca-cola needs to follow local laws, so why should Facebook or Google etc. be exempt?

ocdtrekkie• 5 years ago

This is technically how it has always been, but tech companies try to employ tricks to avoid it, like claiming it's too hard to comply with individual national or state laws. Another exciting prospect for harmful companies is to enshrine the laws they want in place as a treaty that countries can't easily legislate around: That's what the Trans-Pacific Partnership was about. When you see a massive trade treaty, you'll find an insane amount of shadow lobbying investment in everyone getting their preferred laws enforced on other countries, which also often includes prohibitions on countries passing laws that do certain things.

mc323• 5 years ago

This last one is pernicious. I’m so glad it was scuttled. Even Bernie was for scuttling it but most everyone else curiously was clamoring for it, especially Clinton and Obama “gold standards” as they called it.

lunarboy3• 5 years ago

This itself I support, but I still think Korea favors its internal tech companies a little too much. One example: my experience using Google in the states is so much better than Kakao maps here, only because Google was barred from collecting geo data. I get a similar feeling that other foreign companies/services fail to stick here not due to inferior technology, but legal barriers.

watwatinthewat• 5 years ago

For sure this bill exists because Google and Apple are in the position rather than Samsung and LG.

Regardless, good if it makes meaningful change.

mathverse• 5 years ago

Success of South Korea was built on protectionism and dogfooding its companies.It worked for them, it worked for China and again it worked for Singapore.

That pattern is clear and only those incompetent or weak were unable to resist big corporations.

shuckles• 5 years ago

Can you share more about industrial protections used by Singapore? And didn’t China grow as an export manufacturer long before it had any homegrown industrials? In fact, IP from the former was likely an input to the latter in my understanding.

space_rock2• 5 years ago

These countries have terrible software. Korean uncompetitive local services never expand internationally

eric-hu• 5 years ago

That particular example is less about protectionism, though I’d agree South Korea does that plenty. SK has laws against exporting map data, for reasons related to their saber rattling neighbor.

kaiju0• 5 years ago

If I was Apple or Google I would tell the country they are not in compliance with our operating policies and access to service is being rescinded until legal alignment can be restored.

Let that be a message to any country that tries to mess with the money. The country will riot to get their phones working again.

alichapman• 5 years ago

I can't imagine that sovereign nations like being blackmailed by tech companies, so whilst in the short term this could work it seems like the exact move that would cause the country to go the other way and outright ban Google and Apple products.

Popegaf• 5 years ago

Will this set a precedent for other countries or economic regions to follow suit? I could see France for example pointing to SK as a successful model and implementing it. Probably other EU powers will disagree, but they seem like the most like EU contender to limit Apple and Google.

summerlight• 5 years ago

https://www.blumenthal.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/8.11.21%20-%...

FYI, the US senate also prepared a bipartisan bill (Open Markets Act) to enforce big techs to allow third party payment system and app stores, which is a stronger measure (but within a reasonable level) than the proposed S.K. bill. Given the bipartisan nature of the bill this has a decent chance to pass with a slight modification.

S.Korea parliament committee votes to curb Google, Apple commission dominance

Related Stories