Lenovo Selling Linux Laptops Directly in the US

https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/d/linux-laptops-desktops?sort=sortBy&currentResultsLayoutType=grid

by ekianjo • 5 years ago

244 148 5 years ago

lenovo.com

lugged• 5 years ago

Did they not?

JoshTriplett• 5 years ago

They've been doing this for a little while. I just bought an X1 Carbon without Windows.

I don't plan on using the pre-installed Linux, but I appreciate that they're confirming that Linux works with the laptop and all its components.

hypothesis• 5 years ago

I think that pre-installed Linux also means that company is going to provide some customer support, be it BIOS fixes or maybe addressing a driver issue after an OS update.

Without such support it was common to simply get “an unsupported OS” reply, which will necessarily limit how popular product is with non-tech people.

petepete• 5 years ago

Yep. I've had my X1 Carbon for eighteen months and keep receiving firmware updates via lvfs. Every piece of hardware, fingerprint reader included, works flawlessly out of the box with Fedora.

happymellon5• 5 years ago

Interesting. I picked the T series [0], as that would be what I would purchase, and it comes with Ubuntu 18.04. I thought they had made a big announcement where they were working with Fedora to get Fedora shipping as their Linux option at the tail end of last year?

[0] https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-t-ser...

tomstockmail• 5 years ago

It's an option in Matt Millers link here: https://mobile.twitter.com/mattdm/status/1401929147937607687

happymellon5• 5 years ago

Yes although that is the X series, I've been browsing after my comment and had noticed that there is a mix and some seem to be Ubuntu and some Fedora, which is great.

I also appreciate that they are saying that everything should work, including the fingerprint reader which is one thing I'm a little bitter about the XPS series. They'll sell you a laptop that is Linux compatible, but not everything will work.

Actually the X series seems to let you pick you Linux flavour. https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-x1/X1...?

gentleman11• 5 years ago

Can’t trust them since the multiple spyware incidents. Fool me four times, shame on me

Eg,

But it did more than that. It injected a self-signed root HTTPS certificate, which allowed them to hijack any and all encrypted traffic

Different incident

This malware was hidden in the laptop's firmware, and abused the anti-theft feature in Windows 8 and 10. Whenever the laptop booted up, the executable would be extracted from the firmware at boot-up and installed

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/now-three-pre-installed-malwar...

Secondary source that mentions FTC fines

Lenovo cannot install any bloatware on its laptops without customers' express agreement, under the terms of its settlement with the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) over the Superfish scandal.
On top of a $3.5 million fine that the company agreed to pay in September, Lenovo will now be required to obtain express consent from consumers before any preinstalled software is able to run on a laptop, as well as provide an easy means of uninstalling any Lenovo tools.

https://www.itpro.co.uk/desktop-hardware/29396/lenovo-settle...

young_unixer• 5 years ago

This is the only thing stopping me from buying an X1 Carbon. I had decided to buy a Dell Latitude instead, but apparently Dell did something similar [1], so now I don't know what to buy. Maybe a Huawei? AFAIK they haven't been caught in these shenanigans yet, but I still don't feel comfortable with them for some reason.

God, the laptop market is awful.

[1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/11/superfish-20-now-dell-...

donw• 5 years ago

I'm looking at a Librem. System76 also does laptops, as does Pine.

winrid3• 5 years ago

I got an X1 Extreme, went to switch the graphics from Hybrid to Discreet in the BIOS to install Linux, and immediately bricked it. It was a bug.

No reset can fix it. They have to replace the motherboard. They had it four months before I finally got them to just replace the machine.

liveranga• 5 years ago

I'm happy with my System76 Lemur Pro.

It's refreshing to buy a nice laptop from a linux vendor who are maintaing their own (ubuntu based) distro and actually shipping a very polished gnome experience.

Edit: Forgot to mention they ship with coreboot too.

Darmody• 5 years ago

I think Slimbook is also a brand that is worth considering.

jay_kyburz• 5 years ago

I'm going to buy a steam deck and plug a keyboard into it. Perhaps carry around a really nice portable monitor as well.

Joff• 5 years ago

The Framework laptop seems to be a safe purchase. Even though the company is still young, all the reviews are praising it.

scns5• 5 years ago

It depends. If you wan't to run linux, then on your location. If you want to run Windows, i can't help you. As others have allready mentioned, take a look at System76 if you reside in the US. Another option would be https://puri.sm/

Slimbook was mentioned, they are in the UK IIRC.

If you are somewhere else, https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/ might have something for you.

remuskaos• 5 years ago

Have you considered a Framework? frame.work, mostly open, modular laptop

rjzzleep5• 5 years ago

I actually have an X280 in my hand. The reason why wanted it was so I would get 5 years of international warranty on it. Turns out most countries don't actually accept the accidental damage coverage from another country(I paid about $600-$700 in coverage, so for the first 3 years it's no better than an AppleCare, which is international as well).

Also when I wanted to switch it for an X1C because the new ones came out while I was waiting for the stock to arrive(and well they shipped me the wrong model without LTE). They wanted to charge me 15% restocking fee not only on the device, but also on Tax and Insurance.

Currently my touchpad randomly dies when the device goes into sleep. I suspect it's related to some recent firmware update that happened.

The amazing premium Lenovo warranty that everyone talks about must have been before my time.

But given that I want international coverage, I really don't know what options I have. Currently it seems better to just buy a framework laptop, save my money on the insurance and just pay for parts as I go.

tgsovlerkhgsel• 5 years ago

What a shame. I was about to recommend Dell as an alternative, based on GitLab's public documentation that recommends it for GitLab employees and indicates decent linux support. [1]

I made the mistake of sticking with Lenovo due to the expectation of good Linux support, and while most stuff works, I can't say I'm particularly impressed. Aside from a loud fan (not sure if that is due to poor Linux support or just a property of the device), the service in the Lenovo online store was impressively bad. Wrong descriptions of the hardware, insane shipping dates that were pushed out over and over, refusing to simply remove the unavailable component without cancelling the order and going to the back of the queue, and last but not least, Lenovo defrauded me by first having me jump through hoops to claim their 'best price warranty' promise then simply refusing to honor it altogether.

[1] https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/business-technology/team-m...

squarefoot3• 5 years ago

According to the project at the Github page, the online check has been superseded by a newer one:

https://badssl.com/dashboard/

tdsamardzhiev2• 5 years ago

I've been buying Fujitsu laptop for all of my friends, relatives, and family for the last 10 years, and all the issues I've had is one dead fan and one shitty touchpad. Tough, reliable, no bloatware, "Made in Japan" sticker... why does nobody in the US talk about Fujitsu laptops?!

MagnumOpus• 5 years ago

Taiwanese laptops? Asus is a contender in every weight class. Acer maybe too.

Or Japanese. I personally don’t like Sony, but they and Fujitsu are alternatives to crapware from the PRC too.

badjeans• 5 years ago

I have a Huawei matebook x pro and I would highly recommend it. Great build quality and 3:2 screen.

MrPatan• 5 years ago

If spyware concerns keep you from Lenovo and you then consider Huawei.... I don't know, man.

nsizx• 5 years ago

Nah, it's not. Buy a MacBook.

vbezhenar• 5 years ago

Using preinstalled OS is weird. Just reinstall it front the scratch. Issue with Lenovo was that their BIOS injected their malware anyway. Dell is not so advanced.

sneak• 5 years ago

The M1 macs are insanely amazing machines.

I look forward to using Linux on them shortly.

aorth• 5 years ago

Honest question: how does this firmware spyware affect Linux? If I get a ThinkPad and overwrite the pre-installed OS with my own, would spyware like this be able to do anything on Linux?

I guess they could do the same thing, extract some binary from the firmware pre-boot and inject it to /boot to mess with the boot process... but does that give them viable persistence and ability to do stuff in Linux once the OS is booted?

zozbot2343• 5 years ago

The "anti-theft" firmware exploits a Windows misfeature where the BIOS can include stuff that Windows will simply install automatically at boot. So it wouldn't directly affect Linux just yet. But firmware can do other shenanigans that would render any system fundamentally insecure (e.g. via SMM).

jopsen3• 5 years ago

Ideally it should if you format your laptop.

But the problem is working with a vendor that has a track record for compromising its customers.

How do you know they aren't inserting backdoors in the firmware?

The problem is the lack of trust.

To be fair, I'm still spotting an X1, but next time I might consider librem, or something else.

stanislavb• 5 years ago

Yup, no one should trust them given their reputation of installing spyware + being Chinese owned.

I thing Dell is amongst the top choices nowadays with regards to Linux laptops.

P.s. I miss the old Thinkpads (the IBM era)

herbst• 5 years ago

I have a t420 as my daily driver. Nothing to miss, it's still a good device by any standards

squarefoot3• 5 years ago

I wouldn't use the preinstalled OS anyway, no matter if it's Linux or not. The good thing about them offering Linux is that they must ensure hardware compatibility (though I don't recall it having been a problem with Thinkpads) and be ready to give some support, and I also would expect the machine to cost a bit less for using a free OS.

jeremiahhs• 5 years ago

Yep. Never ever buy Lenovo. Personally, I buy HP and sometimes Dell. But Lenovo is forever off my buy list.

ekianjo5• 5 years ago

This only concerned Windows and non thinkpads from Lenovo. Dont spread FUD.

usr11063• 5 years ago

This thread is about Linux. I know they have been caught for spyware on Windows more than once.

Has there been anything similar bad as worse Intel ME by Lenovo on lower level? (Serious question, I don't know)

I would buy a Linux machine from them mainly to know that drivers exist for all components and not to pay the Microsoft tax (symbolic reason, I don't think you really see a difference in price). I would still install my own Linux as I prefer it. So their spyware would not apply to me, I'd hope.

Of course ideally one should not support shitty vendors. Unfortunately all of them are, just in different ways.

Edit: Well, maybe System76 is not shitty. But they are expensive and still seem to have no European support whatsoever. So not an option for me either.

paulcarroty• 5 years ago

Do you think Linux magically will stop them from integrating UEFI backdoors or something hardware-related? I don't wanna test it and don't buy Lenovo.

DGopher29• 5 years ago

really

markrobin• 5 years ago

you should move from china

Stratoscope• 5 years ago

That makeuseof article from six years ago has little or no relevance to any new ThinkPad you might buy today.

Lenovo's consumer and business divisions are best thought of as nearly separate companies within one conglomerate.

Lenovo (formerly Legend) sold laptops and desktops for years before they acquired IBM's personal computer business. But they didn't just buy the ThinkPad name, the people came along with it.

The old Lenovo became the consumer group, and the IBM team became the business group. It's very common to find different approaches on hardware and software between the two lines.

As an obvious example, every ThinkPad (with some recent exceptions) has a TrackPoint, but no other Lenovo machine does.

This applies to software too. If you see something bad that happened on Lenovo consumer machines years ago, it's very unlikely that it affected ThinkPads. It just wasn't the same people making these kinds of decisions.

The ThinkPad team's bread and butter is not individuals like you or me, it's corporate customers who buy hundreds or thousands of machines at a time - and have IT staff who scrutinize the hardware and software.

The 2015 makeuseof article made three points. Let me address them in reverse order.

(3) BIOS-Based Malware. The source for that reporting is this Ars Technica article:

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/lenov...

Lenovo followed up quickly with a description of the security issue and provided a removal tool:

https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/product_security/lse_bios_n...

Near the bottom of the page is a list of the affected models. Note that they were only consumer machines, not ThinkPads.

(2) SuperFish. This was really stupid on Lenovo's part, but again, it was the consumer team who did this. The ThinkPad team would never have allowed something like that, and didn't.

(1) Lenovo Is Spying On You. Some guy bought two refurbished ThinkPads in 2014 and claims they had some Windows spyware. And this is somehow supposed to have anything to do with a Linux ThinkPad you may buy today? Give me a break.

Full disclosure: I am a major ThinkPad fan. I got my first one in 1998, and I have four of them within arm's reach right now: an X1 Extreme and X1 Carbon from work, and my personal P1 and old Yoga 460. Also have a mostly retired W520 and X220 Tablet in the other room, and a few older busted machines. I'm always happy to talk ThinkPads with anyone. :-)

luke2m• 5 years ago

This is why you always install your own OS on a new computer.

faeriechangling• 5 years ago

They used rootkits

neatze• 5 years ago

I think (hope) it is matter of time before they will also start supporting coreboot, probably.

fhackenberger• 5 years ago

Quite hilarious to see the page with photos of the laptops showing windows running...

the_arun• 5 years ago

Not sure how this showed up in front page. This is a major clickbait!

darthrupert• 5 years ago

They have been selling laptops without os for quite some time. I guess having a preinstall has some use but not much for me.

The E14 gen3 is looking pretty nice for myself. Zen 3 ryzen (not quite M1 levels of raw power but not too far behind) with 24G ram and 512+1000G SSD for little over 1000 euros.

CSDude• 5 years ago

Had E14 gen2. Was very happy except screen. Colors are wrong and not visible when in bright environment. Sold it and got an M1. For compile, programming etc. tasks its 2-3x faster.

diragon• 5 years ago

Did you run Linux or Windows on it?

Sold it and got an M1. For compile, programming etc. tasks its 2-3x faster.

You mean the M1 is? That seems slightly incredible. 20-50% improvement I would've accepted easily, but 200-300% seems a bit on the high side.

distances4• 5 years ago

AFAIK, mobile Zen 3 is behind M1 in single-core workloads but wins in (most) multi-core tasks if you're using the top core count models (5800, 5900).

bildung• 5 years ago

Yes, the M1 is about 0-20% faster in single core benchmarks and slower in everything multi-core. https://www.notebookcheck.net/R7-5700U-vs-M1_12978_12937.247...

microtonal• 5 years ago

I had a ThinkPad T14 AMD, which is Linux-certified by Lenovo. If you are used to the warts of Linux on laptops, it is quite ok. However, coming from MacBooks, the experience was comparatively bad.

Pros:

- The CPU fan on the Ryzen 7 Pro 4750U is not very loud.

- You can easily add more memory (bumped up mine to 32GB RAM).

- You can easily replace the SSD (replaced mine by 1TB) and there is M.2 slot for WWAN which can also be used for an SSD.

- Having a variety of ports is nicer than 2/4x USB-C + a stereo jack.

- Performance is good. Single core performance is of course worse than the M1, but having 8 high performance cores plus hyperthreading compensates a lot, especially for development.

Cons:

- I enabled S3 sleep (Linux compatibility), but the laptops drains the batteries like crazy in sleep. 1-2 days in a backpack and it's dead. To make it worse, Lenovo's own charger couldn't revive it. I had to borrow a MacBook Pro USB-C charger to get a reasonable charge again, after which the Lenovo charger would work again.

- Battery life on Linux is ok-ish (typically 6 hours with light use), but nowhere near an M1 Mac (or even an Intel Mac).

- Suspend/resume continues to have issues on Linux. Sometimes, the screen does not wake up. Especially after plugging or unplugging a DisplayPort alt-mode USB-C cable. Usually moving the TrackPoint fixes this.

Every few resumes, the TrackPad and the left button of the TrackPoint do not work anymore. Only switching off the machine fixes this. With a reboot, the TrackPoint still doesn't work.

- Suspend/resume has an issue in Windows, where resuming often results in an unusable TrackPad that continuously clicks. This is solved by disabling fast boot (or whatever it is called in Windows), after that suspend/resume works fine in Windows.

- The 14" 1080p screen is only well-readable with 125% or 150% scaling. Unfortunately, GNOME support for fractional scaling is not great (even with Wayland). XWayland applications are blurred, there are several open issues about this in the Mutter/gnome-shell issue tracker, but no solution. The only way to have a usable display is to set font zooming to 125%-150% and hope that you have an external screen where that scaling is also acceptable.

- The fingerprint scanner results a lot of false negatives on Linux (works fine on Windows).

- The speakers are much worse than modern MacBooks.

- I bought a Lenovo USB-C Gen 2 Dock. However, 4k@60Hz does not work on Linux through the Dock. The proper dock configuration is to use 2 lanes for USB 3.1 Gen 2 and 2 lanes for DP Alt with HBR3 (to have enough bandwidth for 4k@60Hz). However, Linux doesn't configure the 2 DP Alt lanes to use HBR3 and can only use 4k@30Hz [1]. Of course, the Dock works fine with Windows. There is an issue about this in the AMD DRM bug tracker, but it has been inactive for months.

I wanted to like Linux on the ThinkPad and it certainly has a lot going for it, but it still has many paper cuts. Since I use a laptop quite intensively for work, I decided to sell it after ~7 months and buy a MacBook again.

[1] https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues/1317

f6v• 5 years ago

I enabled S3 sleep (Linux compatibility), but the laptops drains the batteries like crazy in sleep. 1-2 days in a backpack and it's dead.

84hrs off power and 45% remaining on MBA. I can't go back.

- Battery life on Linux is ok-ish (typically 6 hours with light use), but nowhere near an M1 Mac (or even an Intel Mac).

To be fair, my 2019 Intel MBP barely survived 6 hours.

sketch242• 5 years ago

The battery drain while in sleep is my only real complaint about my X13 AMD. That and sometimes things get weird with volume controls when plugging and unplugging headphones (never had that issue with any of my Intel Thinkpads). Other than that, it's by far the best laptop I've ever had, including a 2020 MBP.

tannhaeuser• 5 years ago

Nice detailed Linux-on-ThinkPad review. As a counter-point, my almost two year old ThinkPad E495 (Ryzen 3 so not nearly as high-end as yours) keeps on chugging on 20.04 with absolutely no hardware/driver problems whatsoever, including power management. It sure helps that the thing doesn't even have a fingerprint scanner.

No match to the XPS I had before (at twice the price) in terms of display and keyboard, though. And lack of keyboard lighting sure sucks. But then, Dell doesn't do AMD so you need a dysfunctional setup with Nvidia/optimus to get half-decent graphics.

thevagrant• 5 years ago

I don't have the same laptop but regarding hibernate/sleep; In the end I configured my linux machine to shutdown and never use hibernate or sleep. It made the experience a lot more reliable. A longer boot time beats having intermittent trouble on wake.

I've only ever had reliable sleep/resume using a mac.

w4rh4wk5• 5 years ago

Does this mean they ensure power-save / sleep works correctly along with using a dock in all sorts of configurations?

I am using a T460s and have always had problems a) the device draining more power on Linux than on Windows; and b) docking/un-docking while sleeping causing a subsequent boot failure.

solatic• 5 years ago

I have a T590 whose USB driver crashes whenever it's hooked up to a specific combination of daisy-chained monitors through USB-C, causing the laptop to become unresponsive and requiring a hard reboot.

Who knows? I know better than to try Lenovo support, ultimately it'll be a bug in some chipset driver that's "supported", and I haven't got time to debug it.

lota-putty• 5 years ago

Bought a Lenovo laptop 10 years back with free-dos on it.

Installed Ubuntu on it, now at 20.04 LTS. This laptop runs 8 to 16 hours* a day; still on stock hardware except the CPU-fan.

* torrenting & internet-surfing

underscore_ku• 5 years ago

Operating System Ubuntu 18.04 Desktop Edition

nice

neverminder3• 5 years ago

Lenovo is still far away from Dell in this regard. None of Lenovo's top of the line Thinkpad workstations allow you to choose Ubuntu. The example you've sent has Ubuntu 18.04 which is over 3 years old and not the latest LTS version. It's a pathetic half-assed attempt from Lenovo and they're gonna have to do a lot better if they want to get in to Linux laptop market.

ekianjo5• 5 years ago

The fact that they offer Linux does not mean you have to stick with what they install. It means Linux hardware support is safe.

harel• 5 years ago

I have the X1 9th gen.running Ubuntu 21.04. As of now, my Microphone doesn't work, and the get the speakers to be adequate was a challenge (some Dolby Atmos thing). They specify "Linux" as the OS but not which distribution. I'd love to see how the setup is in "Linux" so that the audio system works well.

Other than that, it's a stellar machine. 32GB ram in that form factor and keyboard goes a long way.

greatgib• 5 years ago

In my opinion, they are quite expensive for the hw specs!

tsjq• 5 years ago

is that coz no "msft subsidy" ?

beezischillin• 5 years ago

My general go-to for PC hardware is ASUS with none of their weird extra drivers installed but I’d be willing to try a Lenovo next.

My experiences with Dell have been nothing but bad, we’ve had a bunch of XPS 15s at the office and they all developed all sorts of weird symptoms and instabilities, we’ve had one Quadro-powered one bloat up and the first and only thunderbolt dock exploded its connector, an ultrabook with very little use had its m.2 SSD just randomly die after a few months, etc.

Acer is alright but they go for very cheap components and sometimes compromised design (I had one I owned suck in a bunch of dust that caused it to run warm and melted something in the keyboard so keys stopped working, but replacement parts were available and the repair was painless)

daggersandscars• 5 years ago

Two notes on the X, P, and T laptops:

Lenovo's case design does not provide support for the USB-C connectors. The only support is the connector's attachment to the motherboard. If the port is damaged, the motherboard must be replaced.

If you only use USB-C ports with the laptop securely on a table or in a stand, this is not an issue. Sitting the laptop vertically on the floor, with the charger plugged in, and having it tip over onto a chair leg was enough to break the port loose. If you are used to Apple laptops, which provide significant support for USB-C connectors via the case, this may come as a surprise.

If you are coming from a lifetime of Apple laptops: primary cooling is done through the bottom of the laptop. Using it on a lap, pillow, carpet, blanket, etc may adversely impact performance / increase fan noise.

Other than these use-case specific issues, I've enjoyed the laptops. Get the upgraded screens if it fits your budget -- the low cost screens are intended for bulk purchases for corporate use and feel like using a laptop from 10+ years ago.

Current Lenovos: P1 (2020), X1 Carbon (2018), T14s (2019).

Edited to add note about Apple's cases providing USB-C connector support.

matthewfelgate• 5 years ago

That sounds good.

morpheos137• 5 years ago

Does anybody know who makes a good 4:3 screen ratio laptop anymore? Lenovo used to years ago then almost everything went wide screen.

owly• 5 years ago

Not sure about 4:3, but I saw the Framework ones are 3:2. I’ll probably get one for this reason and for sustainability when my current laptop needs replacement. I’d like to hear some first hand reviews here if anyone has one. https://frame.work

mark_l_watson• 5 years ago

I had a Lenovo Duet Chromebook delivered a few days ago, bought it directly from them. My gear is Apple and System 76, and I bought the Duet on a whim, to get a very portable Linux laptop (Linux container support is pretty good on Chromebooks). I was surprised how good the build quality is, given the very low price.

Lenovo Selling Linux Laptops Directly in the US

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