Companies address labor shortages by pursuing current or former prisoners

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/20/companies-claim-theres-a-labor-shortage-their-solution-prisoners

by minikites • 5 years ago

77 80 5 years ago

... as bosses refuse to raise wages to attract employees

I see UBI as a very elegant solution to this problem. It levels the playing field for everybody. The problem with the current job market is that the negotiation power is not symmetrical.

shadowgovt• 5 years ago

It's not clear that UBI would make negotiation power symmetrical per se, but if it were placed at a high enough value to take the bottom two tiers of Maslow's hierarchy off the negotiating table, that's a net positive for society regardless.

BrianOnHN2• 5 years ago

take the bottom two tiers of Maslow's hierarchy off the negotiating table, that's a net positive for society regardless.

Who could consciously down vote this?

-1 to HN perceived morality.

dahfizz3• 5 years ago

I see UBI as a very elegant solution to this problem.

To which problem? A UBI will obviously mean more income for those stuck in low wage jobs.

But a UBI will definitely not help attract employees to low wage positions. In fact, I think the increased unemployment benefits during Covid proved that if people have some sort of UBI payment, they are not going to work low wage jobs (hence the labor shortage).

lotsofpulp3• 5 years ago

The problem of undesirable work being low wage due to people being born to the parents they were born to.

foxyv2• 5 years ago

Maybe UBI will drill into business leaders heads that they need to either:

a) Make a better workplace that people don't hate coming to.

b) Make the wages compensate enough for the terrible environment they have created.

With a UBI, managers would no longer be under the illusion that "They will eventually come crawling back when they run out of money."

xboxnolifes• 5 years ago

In fact, I think the increased unemployment benefits during Covid proved that if people have some sort of UBI payment, they are not going to work low wage jobs (hence the labor shortage).

I don't think this is true. I am also of the opinion that UBI would decrease demand for low wage jobs, but I do not believe that the increased unemployment benefits due to COVID proves this. The increased unemployment benefits have an income cliff where they go away, so it is possible to return to work and end up making less than (or very close to) what you were making from unemployment. I certainly know a few people who would make barely any more money from returning to work compared to the unemployment benefits they receive.

lm28469• 5 years ago

I see UBI as a very elegant solution to this problem.

Or you know, proper min wages and benefits: paid vacations, paid sick days, paid parental leaves, &c.

Not treating people like cattle is a good starting point

Ericson23144• 5 years ago

No UBI is supposed to make people harder to hire, which is why employers are complaining the unimployment benefits are too generous.

relax884• 5 years ago

The idea that there can be a labour shortage in an industry that does not require specialized skills, at a time in history where capital has more power than ever is a total joke.

postingawayonhn• 5 years ago

If there is a shortage of labour surely it is to be expected that employees will have more bargaining power and move into higher paying and more 'respectable' jobs?

relax884• 5 years ago

Not if you use the prison population and lobby Congress to import more cheap foreign labour so that you don’t have to increase wages.

Which is entirely my point.

pessimizer• 5 years ago

People still can't afford to work jobs that won't pay for their food and shelter. Prisoners, or any other slaves, are a great solution.

tux3• 5 years ago

Has slavery not been abolished in Northern America?

If not, shouldn't slavery be a pretty hot political issue?

Wikipedia says things like the death penalty still exists in half of US states, but I don't know the numbers for states using captive workers.

gruez4• 5 years ago

at a time in history where capital has more power than ever is a total joke.

If you're talking about the last decade, maybe. In the current month/year? No, because the government is currently paying people to stay at home at rates competitive to employment[1]. With that taken into account labor's power is arguably stronger than ever.

[1] The median US hourly wage is $15.35 (https://www.statista.com/statistics/185335/median-hourly-ear...). With the $300/week subsidy from the federal government and 50% of hourly wage from unemployment, that works out to $15.18 for staying at home.

relax884• 5 years ago

https://www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/inflation-cpi

https://www.epi.org/publication/swa-wages-2019/

brightstep2• 5 years ago

labor's power is arguably stronger than ever

Tell that to the Amazon workers pissing and shitting in bottles.

echopurity• 5 years ago

A primary purpose of the 13th amendment is the preservation of slave labor through prison.

throwaway0a5e2• 5 years ago

To call "preservation of slave labor through prison" a "primary purpose" of the 13th amendment is just insane.

Sentencing people to hard labor for certain crimes had been done for thousands of years by that point. The prison carve out was a reflection of the fact that the states passing the amendment were interested in getting rid of commercial slavery as it existed in the south, not throwing a wrench into their own prison systems. The idea that some fraction of prisoners would be doing hard labor for the duration of their sentence or some fraction was completely (edit:)uncontroversial status quo at the time. Contrast with lifetime enslavement for commercial purposes which was was controversial enough to fight a war over.

netizen-936824• 5 years ago

Wasn't commercial slavery also status quo? Something being status quo is not good reason for it to remain so.

The government version of "slavery for me but not for thee"

thescriptkiddie• 5 years ago

After the civil war, southern states imprisoned countless former slaves on trumped up charges, many of whom were then rented out to plantation owners.

danShumway7• 5 years ago

I'm not sure I follow, it sounds to me like you're agreeing with GP.

Slavery overall was status quo. America passed an amendment to end slavery, but added some exceptions to preserve slave labor for criminals, because as you state:

the states passing the amendment were interested in getting rid of commercial slavery as it existed in the south, not throwing a wrench into their own prison systems

They wanted to end the subset of slavery that was practiced in the South without ending slavery overall.

trasz• 5 years ago

When you maintain a form of slavery, like US does, it’s silly to expect companies to not try profiting on it.

JKCalhoun• 5 years ago

Gotta love the moral clarity of "companies".

BrianOnHN2• 5 years ago

We need to stop placing so many restrictions on companies, for the good of the economy!

twic• 5 years ago

Based and Tropico 6 pilled: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF56tMRgeL8

paulpauper• 5 years ago

It's almost as if most of those jobs that req. degrees can be done even by uneducated prisoners, thanks to a cool invention called job training.

MattGaiser• 5 years ago

I don’t think any of the jobs mentioned require degrees.

flerovium• 5 years ago

The first hit on google for "prisoners with jobs":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prz4jfSX_Qg

edoceo2• 5 years ago

No labor shortage. It's a wage shortage. I'm certain if the pay went up, there would be applicants.

fredstarr• 5 years ago

You nailed it 100%!!! There's no other way to put it :)

gruez4• 5 years ago

"No housing shortage. It's a rent shortage. I'm certain if the rent went up, there would be more rentals. "

No, the point isn't that the housing shortage isn't real, it's that whether it's a labor shortage or a wage shortage is in the eye of the beholder.

edoceo2• 5 years ago

That's backwards.

mjburgess3• 5 years ago

How does pay go up?

You assume there's an infinite profit margin available for decreasing.

Many industries operate at a few percent profit.

Sabinus• 5 years ago

Increase costs. Everyone should be able to afford labor-heavy industries costs going up since consumers have so much excess capital from cheap Chinese goods.

lotsofpulp3• 5 years ago

Decrease in income/wealth gap. People on the upper rungs of the ladder have to sacrifice.

FooBarBizBazz2• 5 years ago

people currently or formerly in prison

First of all, this lumps two groups together. Second, isn't it kind of "good" if employers become more willing to hire people with criminal records? They have a hell of a time finding jobs, which gets in the way of social reintegration.

a Waste Management Services executive discussed hiring immigrants to fill commercial driver’s license positions

Oh no! Hiring immigrants! ... What are we supposed to do, shut them out of the job market to form parallel societies in the Banlieues?

How is this in The Guardian? It's Bannonesque "Reserve Army of Capital" stuff.

Ericson23144• 5 years ago

First of all, this lumps two groups together.

Absolutely.

Bannonesque

Yes, but our immigration structure should be fixed so higher skill higher wage immigrants get in first. The way we do immigration now is pretty fucked and makes Bannonesque stuff way less obviously false than it ought to be.

Still, absolutely agree this is a weird headline, and too much mixing of things.

brightstep2• 5 years ago

They're not willing to hire ex-cons for full pay and benefits. These prisoners are essentially slaves, no freedom, no benefits, no time off, barely any pay.

FooBarBizBazz2• 5 years ago

I see that now:

In New York City, construction industry employers recruit recently released prisoners who must seek and maintain employment as a condition of their release from prison.

Why can't an ex-con go bum off their family? Or become a mendicant holy man? Or become a novelist, who in 9/10 cases is just unemployed, but in 1/10 earns money off "My Life in Lockup: The Joe Blow Story" (popular in the prison library)? We should be making formal employment less necessary, not more.

mensetmanusman• 5 years ago

If this is done well it is actually a good thing. I have family recently out of prison and the lack of skills to re-enter the work force is sad, it’s almost like it is built to create reoffenders. The more work opportunities the better, just pay them reasonably.

minikites2• 5 years ago

It doesn't work that way:

She noted many private companies that hire prison workers will not employ them after they are released and will not hire job applicants with criminal records. She added that these programs perpetuate mass incarceration.

anthony_d2• 5 years ago

"She" is one person making an throw away comment. Hardly proof that "It doesn't work that way".

Ericson23144• 5 years ago

Yeah wage-surpressed prison labor is fucked, but people dont realize it's actually pretty rare.

Our economy had been demand-constrained, not supply-constrained, for decades, and peole are beaten into submission not by forced/excessive work, but by telling them they don't or barely deserve to work. (Let your own fears make you work hard, not the whip.)

Prison is no exception. https://johnjayeconomics.org/prison-labor-in-u-s-state-priso...

Ericson23144• 5 years ago

Prison labor is fucked, but companies' greed overpowering their prejudice towards ex-cons is actually what we want!

https://rooseveltinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/RI...

C.f. WWII when black people got way more jobs leading to more prosperity and power and ultimately the civil rights movement.

The "labor shortage" is simply progress back towards the fast-growing economy and less lopsided labor market we used to have.

Better growth raises all boats, but capitalists winge about their loss of relative power. This why I say it's a great lie capitalists actually like growth. They actually prefer a doldrum economy with an unproductive basset bubble.

NonContro• 5 years ago

A lot of these labour shortages will unwind when the eviction moratoriums and COVID-era Federal unemployment payments expire.

I guess businesses just need to hold out until then.

mullingitover• 5 years ago

Some employers around the US are responding to perceived worker shortages in their industries by pursuing cheap sources of labor, such as people currently or formerly in prison.

The US is using slave labor and at the same time sanctioning China for...using slave labor.

AndrewSChapman• 5 years ago

I'm thinking there should never be a conflict of interest between a person and commercial enterprise. If you allow prisons to enforce slavery, then you create a financial incentive to get more prisoners and to keep people in prison for longer. That's pretty messed up and is highly likely to lead to corruption and injustice.

Companies address labor shortages by pursuing current or former prisoners

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