FBI Seized $900K from Safe Deposit Box on 'Pure Conjecture,' Federal Judge Says

https://reason.com/2021/07/29/fbi-seized-900000-from-safe-deposit-box-on-pure-conjecture-federal-judge-says/

by starkd • 5 years ago

119 44 5 years ago

mc322• 5 years ago

They sorely need oversight (with teeth). Grooming, instigating and then entrapping impressionable people, illegal seizures, ability to lie but then imprison people for "lying" to a federal agent... the list goes on. Sure, we need a national investigation unit, but it also needs oversight to prevent glaring abuses.

robomartin2• 5 years ago

The asymmetry with respect to lying has always bothered me. In other words, the idea that a federal employee (not just law enforcement I believe) can lie to you with no legal consequences, yet, if you lie to them, the consequences are dire, truly bothers me at the core.

Extend this further to the fact that politicians suffer no consequences whatsoever for lying and you have a situation where the political class can manipulate and twist matters to fit their objectives, while, if you do the same, you can end-up in prison for a long time.

I have always felt this asymmetry is very wrong. Lying might have a place in law enforcement, for example, when infiltrating a human trafficking organization. No problem with that at all. It should, however, be treated like a warrant. In other words, a judge should authorize it and it should be documented.

This is a silly example but it is the only one I have from personal experience. When I was younger I got a speeding ticket that was a complete lie. The cops knew it. And, in fact, the wrote it down. It was something like going 35 in a 25 zone, when, in reality, the posted speed limit was 45. This cost me both time and money, even when the ticket was summarily dismissed by the judge when I showed pictures of the speed limit sign. What did not happen was some kind of consequence trickling down to the cops who pulled me over and lied about the entire thing --and were stupid enough to document the lie.

This isn't about being vindictive, I respect and appreciate cops, they do a job few of us would consider doing and it is hard. However, both cops and politicians should live by the same rules we have to live by. And, when it comes to lies, I could make a case that the consequences should be serious because they hold authority and power we don't have.

BuyMyBitcoins2• 5 years ago

You’re not the only one who feels this way. What also bothers me is the fact that even slightly misremembering something you had previously said to law enforcement can be used as evidence of lying and perjury.

And we know that human memory and recollection is fallible. Prosecutors know this too. But government officials can freely abuse this in the name of getting a conviction.

I’ve never been able to look at the justice system the same way since watching “Don’t talk to the police”.

starkd2• 5 years ago

Special agents have a lot of power. I think many are running little fiefdoms of their own. My eyes opened when I heard about the plot to kidnap the governor of MI was actually led and instigated by FBI agents. It was reported by BuzzfeedNews.

mc322• 5 years ago

It’s bizarre the things they cook up to “attract” people to honeypots that many of those people would never venture to.

We see the most egregious cases in the news , but that means there are many more less notable cases with the same degree of injustice for lots individuals who aren’t always bright.

It’s as unseemly as having some guy in highschool talking the slow girl in class to go out with him.

There are enough bad people trying to do bad things. Go after them, do it professionally. Not this “I got Martha for lying, gimme my promotion” quickie stuff.

tfigment• 5 years ago

Sounds like you heard the sensationalized version. They knew about but we're contacted by someone who did not found it but became an informant and ultimately a leader because that person was ex-military and skilled. That was my understanding of how it was ultimately not successful.

ALittleLight2• 5 years ago

Apart from civil rights concerns another problem is the possibility for a terrorist to get away from them. If you get some guys together and convince them to do some terrorist plot and give them the plans and maybe some of the tools - how possible is it that some number of them actually perpetrate a crime as a result and kill or hurt some innocent person?

stjohnswarts• 5 years ago

And yet grown men jumped at the chance to kidnap the governor and took steps to enact it. I don't feel one whit of sympathy for such individuals, especially the militant proud boy types that preach white supremacy and violence. What balanced adult would go along with a kidnapping of a governor?

skissane8• 5 years ago

The state of New South Wales, Australia, has an independent "Law Enforcement Conduct Commission" whose explicit job is to investigate law enforcement misconduct (across all major state law enforcement agencies), and to refer cases to prosecutors. Some other Australian states have similar agencies. There is also a federal equivalent, the "Australian Commission for Law Enforcement Integrity", although it does not appear to have been as effective as its state-based equivalents in uncovering law enforcement misconduct.

Maybe the US could copy the idea?

flatline-84• 5 years ago

NSW also employed the Fixated Persons Unit (a terrorist task force) to arrest a journalist who was critical of John "Pork" Barilaro. So far, there's been no word from the "Law Enforcement Conduct Commission" on whether the arrest was lawful (hint: it wasn't) and nobody has been punished for it (yet - there is the defamation case on-going but the terrorist task force isn't involved in it)

throwawayboise2• 5 years ago

But whose job is it to investigate misconduct by these Comissions?

justinclift3• 5 years ago

Heh. Victoria has the IBAC: https://www.ibac.vic.gov.au

They don't allow anonymous whistleblowing though, and all Tor traffic is blocked too.

It's all pretty much in line with "We say we're fighting corruption, but in reality Hell No... we have things in place to ensure it can't be stopped".

underseacables• 5 years ago

The part that really gets me is that the warrant for bade them from seizing the boxes, and the FBI did it anyways. It might be a technicality to some, but we must hold the government accountable in all of its misdeeds. I am not a lawyer, but from what is written in this article, it seems the government has grossly overstepped when it could have achieved its goals legally. However that would require them to show cause, which avoidance of this basic and fundamental tenant, is very suspect.

xscott2• 5 years ago

However that would require them to show cause

They can always fabricate cause. I got pulled over last week (I wasn't speeding or anything, I just had out of state plates visiting a friend). When I didn't consent to have him search my vehicle, he walked a dog around my car and fabricated probable cause. I don't do drugs and there have never been drugs in my car, and yet he said the dog "reacted"... Of course he didn't find anything - there was nothing to find. No ticket, just 30-40 minutes of him going through all my possessions.

I guess I should be grateful he didn't "seize" something or shoot me.

throwawayboise2• 5 years ago

Funny because a friend of mine had his kid pulled over for rolling through a stop sign, the cop saw smoking paraphernalia in the center console (weed is not legal here), just told them "keep that stuff out of sight, boys" and gave them a warning for the stop sign.

rasz• 5 years ago

30-40 min is illegal

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/can-police-use-dogs-...

an officer who doesn't have reasonable suspicion may not extend a traffic stop in order to conduct a dog sniff. The officer who pulls a driver over may not prolong the detention "beyond the time reasonably required to complete" the stop's "mission."

you could sue

chrismcb• 5 years ago

How do you get pulled over for out of state plates? That doesn't seem like something you should have a traffic stop for.

BuyMyBitcoins2• 5 years ago

I think one of the big flaws with our legal system is a paradigm of “this is that” kind of thinking.

How do you get around the spirit of a law? Well you claim what you did was something else because the law doesn’t mention that other thing. It wasn’t a search, it was just conjecture. Sure the end effect was the same but this is a totally different thing.

tootie• 5 years ago

They were actually allowed to seize the boxes just not to search the contents. They had an indictment against the business itself but not against the actual customers. The entire business is setup to hide assets so they probably figured they could bootstrap cases against the customers who were probably up to something. In reality they probably just collected a ton of incriminating evidence that's going to be inadmissible.

tomc1985• 5 years ago

Yeah, how do they expect that to hold up in court? Isn't that the sort of misconduct that gets evidence suppressed or cases thrown out?

SOMA_BOFH4• 5 years ago

yes, until you run into a judge & prosecutor who are golf buddies.

anonprinciples• 5 years ago

I was there during the raid which was multiple days. FBI setup a mobile command center and had dozens of agents there.

On a separate issue, a person who ran a Trump group on IRC threatened to kill my family but in an inert way: “I look forward to watching your mom [violent threat].”

This individual, allegedly a hacker, then fabricated a threat to the FBI. A few days later, 2 FBI agents showed up at my residence and asked my property manager if I was violent. They laughed at them.

I spoke to them moments after this and they realized the claim was a lie. And “closed my case”. I gave the FBI the person’s cell phone. The one agent emailed me saying where the person was located but no updates. 5-months later nothing happened.

Then this so-called hacker emailed anti-Semitic threats and emailed a message to the FBI agent and copied me. I confronted the FBI agent over this and asked if this individual was an FBI informant or agent.

Considering this person is monitoring hacker groups, now impersonating me, and emailing FBI agents messages signed with “Hitler”, even though they have this person Verizon phone number, is incredibly sketchy.

Beyond that, there’s been so many FBI scandals that it’s beginning to be embarrassing. I’m not scared of corrupt dumb people regardless if they have a federal badge.

SOMA_BOFH4• 5 years ago

I’m not scared of corrupt dumb people regardless if they have a federal badge.

i envy you

devwastaken• 5 years ago

Don't forget the "probable cause" for lost gold either. https://youtu.be/h-fGAqAfozM Steve Lehto has a whole series on the safe deposit box scandal and some other FBI cases that are pretty insane.

max_• 5 years ago

Slightly off topic but very informative YouTube Video.

https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE

TroisM• 5 years ago

That reminds me of this article: Illinois Is The 1st State To Tell Police They Can't Lie To Minors In Interrogations: https://www.npr.org/2021/07/16/1016710927/illinois-is-the-fi...

simonblack• 5 years ago

If you don't hold it in your own hot little hand, it doesn't belong to you at all.

Or as the old saying goes: "Possession is 12 tenths of the Law"

FBI Seized $900K from Safe Deposit Box on 'Pure Conjecture,' Federal Judge Says

Related Stories