Coq searches for alternative name

https://github.com/coq/coq/wiki/Alternative-names

by janvdberg • 5 years ago

63 119 5 years ago

github.com

maweki5• 5 years ago

This [...] has already led to some women [...] getting harassed when they said they were working on Coq.

What's wrong with people?

potiuper• 5 years ago

If someone is working on a project, then the expectation is that the name of that project can be correctly pronounced?

maweki5• 5 years ago

They pronounce it correctly and its pronounciation is the same as "cock" (or close enough for people to understand it so). And that's the problem.

Edit: Literally the first two sentences:

The name Coq comes from the French word for rooster, CoC (the Calculus of Constructions) and Thierry Coquand, one of the initial authors of Coq. But it is also close to the word "cock" which has a slang meaning that some English speakers consider offensive (it also means a male bird or the firing lever in a gun).

jvilk• 5 years ago

What do you mean? Nearly every native English speaker who works with Coq pronounces it "cock" (from experience at POPL, PLDI, and other PL conferences).

Personally, I'm very happy that they are changing the name.

necovek3• 5 years ago

This similarity has already led to some women turning away from Coq and others getting harassed when they said they were working on Coq.

Full quote which you managed to misrepresent by "helpfully" cutting text out.

So, women were turned away, and others were harassed.

So I guess that's exactly what's wrong with people: they will frequently misunderstand things and then spread those misunderstandings.

carmen_sandiego• 5 years ago

Women weren't turned away, they did the turning away. I don't see what was misrepresented. The person you're chastising seems to have edited the quote to ensure we know they're replying to one specific part of it. After all, if they had left the part about women turning away, it might seem like they were asking "what's wrong" with the women.

torgard2• 5 years ago

I read that as some women turned away, and other women were harassed.

JacksonGariety• 5 years ago

Half of all people do not get jokes.

necovek3• 5 years ago

I did consider an option of it being a joke, but thenthe discussion continues as if it was a real quote, so it's still worth correcting for the benefit of those who are now arguing the quote instead of the article.

aequitas• 5 years ago

And half of all people don't understand that a bad joke isn't funny, especially when you hear it every time, over and over.

Grustaf7• 5 years ago

I'm very curious about the form of this harassment. It's hard to imagine. Maybe if you had extremely immature colleagues, but even then, "harassed"?

- Hey, what are you up to?

- Working in Coq

- Hu-hu you said "cock"

Presumably any adult would be aware that the name is "funny" and would be careful when replying and say something like "working on formal proofs", "programming" or "maths" instead.

happy_path2• 5 years ago

It seems to me that the harassers were just searching for an excuse to harass those women.

TedShiller3• 5 years ago

Why?

maweki5• 5 years ago

One would suggest reading at least the first paragraph.

TedShiller3• 5 years ago

To me the word git is offensive. So can we rename git?

Andugal• 5 years ago

While not intended in that way, I found it really funny.

bmh• 5 years ago

Scroll to the very bottom of the page for the best suggested replacement!

jgwil23• 5 years ago

Hint: in French it is better to avoid spelling out the letter 'Q'.

For those who are wondering, 'Q' in French is pronounced the same as the word 'cul,' meaning 'ass.'

Clewza313• 5 years ago

A famous riff on the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.H.O.O.Q.

tasogare• 5 years ago

Yes and then co-Q would be pronounced "koky" (IPA) which means cuck. That’s not a big improvement...

My favorite proposal is Le Coq Formel even if it’s a bit long. The simple Le Coq feels too meme-y.

dgellow8• 5 years ago

In French SQL is generally spelled out loud without it being an issue. I don't really see why that wouldn't work for coq, though I understand if they prefer to have an actual word, "see-oh-queue" is a bit ugly.

luma2• 5 years ago

HPE found themselves in a similar position several years back with their ProLiant line of x86 servers. Each "generation" of those systems used to be referred to as "g4" or "g5", then "g6", etc.

When time came for the 8th generation systems, all the nomenclature suddenly shifted to "gen8" instead of "g8" without much explanation offered.

Come to find out, "g8" is offensive slang for "cock" in Chinese. China being a huge market, HPE thought it better to change the entire naming scheme of their server line rather than deal with any potential blowback from naming their systems "g8".

severak_cz• 5 years ago

This is funny, because G8 is commonly used abbreviation of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_of_Eight

foota• 5 years ago

I'm surprised they didn't just skip to g9 or use a new naming scheme.

luma2• 5 years ago

gen8 (instead of g8) is the new naming scheme! We're on gen10 now, with gen11 right around the corner.

toxik4• 5 years ago

For public information, G8 is pronounced gee-baa in Chinese

Symbiote• 5 years ago

Why not just pronounce it differently in English? Maybe "co-que".

Java is already pronounced "djava" in English, and "yava"/"iava" in several other European languages.

I assume the same for C++, C#, Awk, Python etc.

Cthulhu_• 5 years ago

Because 99% of the time, a project's name is not spoken out loud - it's all on the internet.

I mean I'm glad I don't have to speak "Cee-plus-plus" out loud much.

crtc2• 5 years ago

In German C# is pronounced "C Lattenzaun" or "C Schweinegatter", which is quite a mouthful.

louthy3• 5 years ago

Why not just pronounce it differently in English

I think because most people won't. They'll go for the most obvious pronunciation. Especially as there's a brand called Le Coq Sportif, which has a pretty well known pronunciation.

First exposure to names of languages, libraries, etc. is often written on a screen - and so it could well be years before anyone actually speaks the word, but they have the pronunciation in their head, and that tends to stick.

threatofrain• 5 years ago

Big discussion today.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26738980

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26747129

neolog• 5 years ago

"rooster" is also slang for "penis"

What dialect has "rooster" as slang for penis?

dvh• 5 years ago

Give it time

krageon2• 5 years ago

I can think of at least one incidence where chicken would be. I imagine there are similar edge cases for rooster. It's because it refers circumspectly to the original word I'd guess.

torgard2• 5 years ago

Roqc is a fantastic name, hope they go with that.

hutrdvnj• 5 years ago

I agree, it's by far the best name from their suggestions.

sriku• 5 years ago

<tongue-in-cheek>In a parallel effort, the airline industry is modifying its manuals and training to not refer to the pilot bay as "cockpit".</tongue-in-cheek>

qaq2• 5 years ago

Dick?

BlasDeLezo• 5 years ago

Qunt

qaq2• 5 years ago

Would be good name for fintech analytics package

llaolleh• 5 years ago

They should keep it instead of trying to avoid offending people. People take things too seriously. When else are you going to have fun saying, I'm working on the CoQ have an awkward stare, and then laugh about it?

We already have CoC for Vim, and I see no problem with that.

traspler• 5 years ago

I think it's perfectly fine for a project to have a discussion about what they are calling themselves and what the consequences of that are. I really like the introduction of the linked wiki and I think it leaves it open to anyone to argue their point, from "leave it, it's funny" to "I feel offended and so should you".

I don't think this discussion has reached the point (yet) where it's simply about avoiding offence or getting bullied into a decision.

Sebb7674• 5 years ago

People take things too seriously

Depends on your viewpoint. If you have a small plugin or personal project like CoC, without any ambitions to reach many people, such a joke is fine in my book. But in this case, it seems to hinder the adoption and growth of the language, so it makes a lot of sense to switch to a less offensive name. Especially since the language seems to aim to get more widespread usage.

louthy3• 5 years ago

I think this is laudable. I don't use the language, but I always found its obvious pronunciation a bit strong. I've had discussions of theorem provers with engineers I know, and when Coq is mentioned it always ends up with either some awkward silence or sniggers (US: snickers) - which is pathetic, but it's also real.

As a man, I hadn't thought of the potential problems for women in this sphere (quelle surprise); that is absolutely the strongest argument for change. We should all strive to be inclusive and it seems the leaders in the Coq community are taking that seriously, and should be applauded.

My two penneth worth on the variants that still include Coq in the name (like 'Le Coq', etc.) is that it'll just get shortened down to Coq in real-world use. English tends to shorten terms to the minimum word or phrase that still conveys meaning.

majewsky• 5 years ago

Languages tend to shorten terms to the minimum word or phrase that still conveys meaning.

FTFY

It's just particularly noticable with English because the more people speak a language, the more people work on trimming out the fat (consciously or unconsciously).

Grustaf7• 5 years ago

As a man, I hadn't thought of the potential problems for women in this sphere (quelle surprise); that is absolutely the strongest argument for change.

Because women are more prudish than men? Or because the joke is about the male member? So if it was called "Qunt", it would be men that were clamouring for a name change?

Volundr5• 5 years ago

Clamouring? No, can't say I would. But it would be an awkward name and I'd be glad when it was changed. Certainly would be uncomfortable talking about it at work.

louthy3• 5 years ago

No, because TFA:

This similarity has already led to some women turning away from Coq and others getting harassed when they said they were working on Coq

toxik4• 5 years ago

Call it Coquand and say Coq is an abbreviation gives you exactly the right amount of plausible deniability. I like it!

gbrown_• 5 years ago

The juvenility of people astounds me.

If there are people in the community purposely ignorant of the French entomology and using the similarity to "cock" to troll or harass others does the project changing it's name even help? Those people are still present. Perhaps cutting off such an avenue does reduce toxicity but it feels like catering to the lowest common denominator. Is it too much to expect basic decency these days?

Not to mention the English normative focus. Have there been other large projects that felt the need to change their name because of connotations in languages other than English?

numlock86• 5 years ago

What's with this weird trend since 2016'ish (?) that everyone is getting offended by everything? Surely the world has enough other problems right now.

dragonwriter4• 5 years ago

What's with this weird trend since 2016'ish (?) that everyone is getting offended by everything? Surely the world has enough other problems right now

The only thing new is the degree of performative offense by reactionary elites at people “getting offended” as a response to every complaint of substantive patterns of harm (not mere offense) as a distraction from actual problems.

mro_name3• 5 years ago

the world has enough other problems

maybe that's the issue – the obvious problems seem unsurmountable, so let's do just about anything else.

Parkinsons law on bikeshedding/triviality: the least relevant topic on the agenda gets the most attention.

crtc2• 5 years ago

It's more people having a platform to speak out about how they feel.

Volundr5• 5 years ago

This isn't new. Brands frequently have different names in different countries due to connotations. Characters in books and films get renamed when they cross borders. Cloact was renamed to Reagent due to people associating it with cloaca. I seem to remember another project that was renamed due to it's connotations in Spanish but I can't find it now.

While it was never renamed, GIMPs name has drawn objectors since well before 2016.

The only reason this is a big deal instead of routine like those is the current backlash against "PC culture" or "SJW"s.

argvargc3• 5 years ago

If there was a project called "fuq", and people were being harassed or finding it difficult to discuss, I think anyone could understand that this was an issue.

Given this, "Coq" is clearly a fuqing problematic name, and unless it's absolutely intended to have the double meaning, it should probably be changed somehow.

A clear alternate pronounciation of "coke" (with optional circumflex), would seem easiest to implement. At least, try it for a while and see if it works?

pelario• 5 years ago

To me it seems as misdirected solution:

i) If people is being harassed because of the name of their workplace, then the problem is the harasser. Changing the name of the workplace is a bit like victim shaming, in the sense that the real problem is the harasser.

ii) If people have difficulties talking about their workplace name, then I think it's people's problem.

Sebb7674• 5 years ago

Changing the name of the workplace is a bit like victim shaming, in the sense that the real problem is the harasser.

Yes, but the connotation is arguably quite NSFW. If it would be named penis directly, it should not make a difference either, but it does. Throwing in "we should use cock!" in a meeting will get you glances at first and surely some more afterwards, even if you clarify.

Ask the companies named ISIS (there are quite a few) how the name worked out for them; same thing here.

If people have difficulties talking about their workplace name, then I think it's people's problem.

Yes, but it is then, in turn, your problem, as you loose out on quite a few people - either because they don't want the trouble with the name or because it simply deters them. Marketing is extremely important.

argvargc3• 5 years ago

So you'd be happy announcing to a room of strangers that you're working for a company called "fuq"? Or "diqhed"? Or how about "faqqot"? And how it plays out every single time?

In all things, there are limits - and "coq", as it is presently pronounced, is obviously breaching those limits, or the problem wouldn't be there.

Sebb7674• 5 years ago

A clear alternate pronounciation of "coke" (with optional circumflex), would seem easiest to implement

Yes, but I'm not convinced this would actually take hold. The Voltswagen thread had a lot of discussion about this and quite a few were convinced that the "american" pronunciation is as valid as the canonical German one. So, in the end, it would probably remain "cock" for a lot of people.

At least, try it for a while and see if it works?

A name change, even if only in pronunciation, is a rather large and conflicting change. Doing this twice looks like a recipe for disaster.

argvargc3• 5 years ago

I'm not sure a name change merely in pronunciation must be necessarily large or conflicting, especially if the existing one has an obvious problem. It's essentially a "soft" change - ie, change nothing, don't even announce it publicly. Quietly put "pronounced as: " in the docs and instruct employees to start saying it differently. Not a big deal.

If after a while that resolves the problem or at least sufficiently minimises it, you're done.

If not, I think you have a clear go-ahead to make a big, breaking change.

happy_path2• 5 years ago

I'm no French nor English native speaker (I speak a bit of both, though) and don't understand that discussion for a name change.

This reminds me of the issue with the word "negro" (Spanish for black) in some schools of the USA. It seems some people couldn't understand that that word was there for centuries before the Atlantic Slave Trade.

Are we going to adapt every language to avoid negative connotations in English (or the common tongue of our era)? If you are an English speaker you should be used to pronounciation exceptions, being an almost no-rule pronunciation language. Pronounce it like you want ("coqi", "le coq" or whatever you want) but changing the name for all speakers (even the non-English ones)? That's a big no-no for me.

Grustaf7• 5 years ago

You will never understand these discussions if you take them at face value. There is almost always something else involved. Misdirection away from actual issues, people with too much time on their hands, people with an axe to grind or some other agenda.

bryanrasmussen2• 5 years ago

in Denmark the word pik has the same meaning, so when I was working in a ruby shop almost 10 years ago would have to listen to two senior developers making pik jokes every now and then. They weren't really very funny, but I guess they were amused.

ilammy2• 5 years ago

Remember when “Fedora × Raspberry Pi” was blessed “Pidora”, to much amusement of their Russian-speaking userbase? There were also calls for renaming, but apparently they kept the name.

Sebb7674• 5 years ago

What's the problem with Pidora in Russian?

ilammy2• 5 years ago

Everybody will read it as «пидора» which is highly obscene swearword for [a certain F word HN doesn't allow to utter]. You can't even write that with a straight face, let alone speak it out loud, definitely banned for use in mass-media in transliterated/vocal form. But not many on the internet were offended by the name or anything. Quite the contrary, people thought it's a funny name and makes good marketing.

noodlesUK• 5 years ago

I’m sure there are plenty of things that are fine in English that sound mildly (or worse) offensive in other languages. Should we really be imposing on other people?

Volundr5• 5 years ago

A project I was involved with (Reagent) changed it's name from Cloact because it made people think of cloaca. Companies very commonly change brand and product names when selling in different countries due to connotations arising from the name in the native tongue. Similarly books and movies will rename characters for the same purpose.

I guess the question is, why shouldn't the Coq project think about this kind of thing?

dgellow8• 5 years ago

Just a funny note: we have the exact opposite issue in French with the English word "bit", which sounds exactly like the French word "bite", a literal translation of the word "cock".

So I guess that goes both ways :)

jerome-jh• 5 years ago

Reminds me of an embarrassing conversation at work in front of female non technical colleagues, about 20 years ago. Anyway France alone cannot make the world move away from "bit", whereas the US and the anglophone world supposedly have the power the change the name of something french people invented :) Let's see the bright side of this as a consequence of the wide adoption of Coq and the cause of an even wider adoption.

icha• 5 years ago

Should we scrap all foreign names altogether to make our dearest English speakers as comfortable as possible? Talk about diversity.

twpalace• 5 years ago

I suggest renaming it to "woq", pronounced "woke".

ghthor• 5 years ago

This is my favorite suggestion thus far.

mike_k• 5 years ago

Seems now we need a perfectly PC-correct newspeak. That will a be a subset of all words in all languages that excludes any words that _could_ sound like a different word in a different language and then filtering it further to exclude anything even remotely dubious.

mro_name3• 5 years ago

Told you so. Take UUIDs. Won't have happened.

tparsonx• 5 years ago

Well, 8888-8888-8888-8888 is a dog whistle! Do not underestimate the power of numerology!

mro_name3• 5 years ago

obsceneties in decimals. sigh.

dgellow8• 5 years ago

Just an idea, but would it be possible to say "coqlang", the say way we say golang for Go? Or does that still sound offensive? That may solve a part of the problem without a complete renaming.

mseepgood2• 5 years ago

the say way we say golang for Go?

Nobody says "golang" in speech, that would sound idiotic. It's a tag for search engines, not for speaking.

dgellow8• 5 years ago

I do from time to time, and do not feel idiotic doing so...

Grustaf7• 5 years ago

This is extra silly since the non-slang meaning of "cock" in English is more or less the same as "coq". Why not just change the logo to a rooster that doesn't look like a dick?

pmkiwi• 5 years ago

Prouvé Demontré Verifié to reflect its French roots :)

CodeGlitch• 5 years ago

GIMP should do the same thing. I do honestly think it's reduced its adoption.

fortran77• 5 years ago

How about "Rooster?" (It's in their list.) I also like the "Rococo" idea.

I'm pretty sure the people who named Coq knew exactly what they were doing. Feigning surprise at how it's interpreted is disingenuous.

Coq searches for alternative name

Related Stories