Xinjiang cotton: Western clothes brands vanish as backlash grows

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-56533560

61 81 5 years ago

eric4smith• 5 years ago

Interesting. A lot of western clothing is already made in China.

The article says "China is targeting more Western clothes retailers". But it should be noted that this backlash and boycotting of western clothing brands is done by Chinese people, not by the Chinese government. Many do not agree with the western narrative of forced labor cotton.

This boycotting is not limited to consumers. Various celebrities are doing it too. They have terminated their contracts with western clothing brands.

Interestingly, one such celebrity is Dilraba Dilmurat, a Uyghur celebrity who's very famous in China. Her company announced that they're terminating their contract with Adidas.

In addition, many Chinese companies have doubled down and proclaimed that they "support Xinjiang cotton".

Various people have pointed out that they do not believe the forced labor stories, because over 70% of cotton in Xinjiang is picked by machines. Whether you believe this statistic is up to you — I'm simply saying that this statistic has been mentioned.

This comment is in no way meant to endorse, nor to criticize, the Xinjiang situation. I am only commenting on the facts surrounding the boycott by Chinese people.

baybal25• 5 years ago

I would've only said that I laught at your naivete, but the gravity of the matter doesn't allow.

100 of random celebrities make nearly word for word identical posts within hours of each other?

Your naivete was exploited.

This is a very typical operation by the propaganda ministry.

P.S. I assume you are Chinese, and I cannot believe somebody with that level of intellectual achievement to make it to the West can't see a banal lie, when it is a joke material for local taxi drivers.

FooBarWidget16• 5 years ago

Are they word for word identical? Can you show me? This is not meant to criticize your comment, I am truly curious about your sources.

You say it's propaganda. From everything I've seen, Chinese propaganda is much more crude and much more official than that. They don't force other people — like celebrities — what to say, they broadcast via state TV channels and they put up huge banners. They have censorship, which means forbidding certain things, but I've never seen them coercing celebrities to say things they don't agree with. In general people can choose to stay quiet and not get involved. Do you have evidence that shows that the celebrity statements are coerced? Again: this is not criticism, I am truly curious about your sources.

From what I understand, nationalism in China is real. Do you perhaps dispute this notion?

oreally6• 5 years ago

This is a very typical operation by the propaganda ministry.

Needs proof

oefrha3• 5 years ago

P.S. I assume you are Chinese, and I cannot believe somebody with that level of intellectual achievement to make it to the West can't see a banal lie, when it is a joke material for local taxi drivers.

That personal attack is totally unnecessary.

dang• 5 years ago

We've had to warn you before about violating the site guidelines. You've reverted to doing it extremely badly. If that continues we're going to have to ban you again. You ought to know better by now.

Ideological attacks, nationalistic attacks, personal attacks, and ethnic attacks are not what this site is for. We ban such accounts. No more of this please.

ecnerwala4• 5 years ago

Do they have any other option other than "support" Xinjiang cotton? The only other option Dilraba possibly would've had is "re-education."

FooBarWidget16• 5 years ago

Yes they have. They can choose to stay quiet and not say anything.

Such boycotts and backlashes are short-lived. If you look at past boycotts — against Dolce & Gabanna who made a racist commercial, or against the Japanese prime minister visiting war crime shrines — then you also see that after a while people forget about the boycott and continue to buy things. None of those were government-instigated either: in fact the government actively called on people to calm down. There was for example a restaurant in Shenyang which put on an anti-Japanese banner, and the police told him to take it down because it's too insulting to Japan.

So yes celebrities absolutely have a choice to wait until the fuss is over.

EdSchouten• 5 years ago

From the article: "While H&M's physical stores in China remain, it is no longer possible to hail a taxi to the shops using an app"

That doesn't seem like it's solely the choice of consumers/various celebrities.

FooBarWidget16• 5 years ago

Taxi app companies aren't government-owned.

utrechtsouth2• 5 years ago

But it should be noted that this backlash and boycotting of western clothing brands is done by Chinese people, not by the Chinese government.

No it's the government.

RA_Fisher• 5 years ago

So China will allow loads of Western journalists to investigate without hinderance? Excellent!

Access has been heavily restricted so far, so I’m eager to see the results of China’s new-found forthrightness on the issue.

If it’s as China says: show us.

scarmig3• 5 years ago

China also doesn't allow loads of Western journalists to investigate pretty much anywhere in China, so that can't really be taken as particular evidence that a "genocide" is happening in Xinjiang. Send a journalist to a random factory in Shenzhen and have them start questioning workers about how much they like the CCP and you'll get a similar response.

a0-prw• 5 years ago

If I was a responsible decision maker in China, wether or not I had something to hide, I would not allow Western journalists free access. The Western press is largely, though not entirely, a mouthpiece of the Western intelligence agencies. Why would anyone allow the presstitutes in ?

pjc504• 5 years ago

Various people have pointed out that they do not believe the forced labor stories, because over 70% of cotton in Xinjiang is picked by machines. Whether you believe this statistic is up to you — I'm simply saying that this statistic has been mentioned.

The point of forced labour in these situations is not the efficient picking of cotton but as a form of punishment.

western narrative of forced labor cotton

Are we calling everything we disagree with a "narrative" now?

We don't have all the facts on Xinjiang because journalism is prevented there - which in and of itself should make us suspicious.

heraclius• 5 years ago

Narratives can be correct or incorrect (and this one is mostly correct insofar as it makes specific claims about the treatment of Uyghurs in Xinjiang.) Calling a set of claims a narrative for the purpose of pointing out some people don’t agree doesn’t entail that those claims are wrong.

FooBarWidget16• 5 years ago

Are we calling everything we disagree with

My comment is not a statement on whether I agree or disagree.

"Narrative" is a neutral word. Something can be a narrative even if it's true and I agree with it.

scarmig3• 5 years ago

The point of forced labour in these situations is not the efficient picking of cotton but as a form of punishment.

Punishment isn't the right word. The goal is to obliterate Uyghur village life and shift them to a legible lifestyle that is integrated into the Chinese mass market. Having them e.g. pick cotton, aside from being a convenient way to pay off well-connected supporters, makes the Uyghurs dependent on a regime-friendly company and also gives them more income to buy the same goods and consume the same media as the rest of China.

ETA: I'm confused as to whether this comment pissed off a bunch of wumao or pissed off a bunch of Americans who somehow managed to misread it as praising China. An explanation of a bad behavior isn't a justification for it, but something that can help provide insight into why it's happening and possible pressure points to stop it.

kif4• 5 years ago

I don't see the fact about the Uyghur celebrity you singled out as interesting, for the simple fact that she's in China. As is painfully well known outside of China, they have a way of making businessmen disappear: https://money.cnn.com/2017/06/14/investing/china-missing-exe...

So I really don't see how any of your points make sense, about companies being private and all. The truth is there's no democracy in China.

Anything that comes out of there must be taken with a truckload of salt. Kind of like the ridiculous Covid numbers, that put the total number of cases in China lower than countries with a population 500x smaller than theirs.

kif4• 5 years ago

Seems like this site has taken a turn for the worse. I expect downvotes without discourse on Reddit, it being a social media and all, but I thought the people here were above it. Oh well...

yorwba• 5 years ago

Many do not agree with the western narrative of forced labor cotton.

Which implies that they haven't read their country's criminal law (which requires all able-bodied prisoners to work) or didn't think through it's implications (of course there's forced labor cotton, the same way there's forced labor rice, forced labor coal and forced labor textiles.) Mechanization doesn't negate that, since being forced to operate the cotton-picking machines or a sewing machine is still forced labor.

But part of the blame lies with the "Western narrative" not trying very hard to be believable. E.g. using "Xinjiang" as a shorthand for "Uyghur forced labor" when 1) there are other ethnic groups in Xinjiang 2) forced labor affects at most a few percent of the population (to be clear, that's still hundreds of thousands of people) and 3) it's not limited to Xinjiang, but applies to all of China (as I said, prisoners are required by law to work.)

In the West, Western reporting on China operates in easy mode: hardly anyone has the background knowledge to notice imprecise or even incorrect reporting. But Chinese people are going to notice a disconnect with their daily lived experience. That disconnect can be explained, but I've yet to see a Western journalist do a good job explaining it, or even realize that there's something to explain.

ipiz0618• 5 years ago

You're only mentioning facts, but not all of the facts.

The way you emphasised your comment as merely mentioning facts is making it obvious that you are selectively picking facts in favour of some narrative.

Care to mention how coordinated the "support XinJiang cotton" statements are? Like all the "support Hong Kong Police" posts before? I can also say I'm only commenting on the facts surrounding the situation.

It's interesting you mentioned Dilraba. If China can threaten Uighurs overseas, I wonder how one inside the country can wilfully oppose any propaganda.

FooBarWidget16• 5 years ago

I apologize if it came over as claiming that those are all facts. It is not meant as an exhaustive list of facts. In fact, I declare that I am not able to list all facts exhaustively.

I mentioned the facts that I know of, and that I think add something to the discussion (i.e. not things that people haven't already heard a million times).

Since you believe I missed mentioning important facts, I implore you to elaborate them. This is not meant as sarcasm, I'm truly curious about what you can add.

For example, you say that the statements are coordinated. Can you show examples and data?

croes2• 5 years ago

Maybe we should offer asylum to the Uyghurs but I think as soon they are here people stop calling the Uyghurs and just classify them as muslims. Same happened with syrian refugees.

pjc504• 5 years ago

People should keep an eye on the "BN(O)" Hong Kong visa. The UK has, perhaps surprisingly given all the anti-asylum-seeker rhetoric, decided to make a slightly easier route for HK nationals to emigrate to the UK. China has started to retaliate: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3127111...

https://homeofficemedia.blog.gov.uk/2021/01/29/media-factshe... (£250 for five years, plus the effectively mandatory £600/year NHS surcharge, per person, plus any additional test or permit fees)

croes2• 5 years ago

Most HK nationals aren't muslims. Muslims face another level of anti-asylum-rhetoric than HK people.

phantomathkg2• 5 years ago

I would suggest compare this incident with the Boxer Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion. Majority of the Chinese mentality haven't changed since the Qing dynasty.

darkteflon6• 5 years ago

What’s being done in Xinjiang is indisputably awful. It’s also clear that the Chinese response is heavily coordinated by the state for its own political benefit.

On the other hand, I reckon the average Chinese person on the street hears about corporate boycotts like this and just thinks: you Westerners are a bloody bunch of hypocrites. This week the Georgia legislature disenfranchised innumerable black people and there were two mass shootings. In the past 12 months alone, hundreds of thousands of people have died in America alone in large part due to malignant political influence, and a sitting President incited a riot in the Capitol.

You can see how the issue devolves into crass nationalism pretty quickly.

Anyone with any sense has been warning about Western countries allowing or causing the erosion of their own soft power in recent decades, culminating most recently with the awful person that was Donald Trump. It’s well and truly coming home to roost now.

underseacables2• 5 years ago

You had me until you got to Donald Trump. No president has been more critical of China and actually done more to confront China than Donald Trump.

darkteflon6• 5 years ago

Donald Trump’s specific policy on China is a separate matter from the effect his conduct generally had on American soft power.

I say this as a citizen of one of America’s closest allies.

teknologist3• 5 years ago

Let's compare literal genocide and live organ harvesting with what happened to George Floyd and a riot in the Capitol building. Smart.

darkteflon6• 5 years ago

No one’s comparing those things.

baybal25• 5 years ago

On the other hand, I reckon the average Chinese person on the street hears about corporate boycotts like this and just thinks: you Westerners are a bloody bunch of hypocrites.

An average Chinese person on the street doesn't think, he is preoccupied with making a living, and has no time to watch nor the Radio Free Asia, nor People's Daily.

And if given chance to immigrate, and money, most will not give a f__k what is to happen to China, or America tomorrow.

Locals would agonize much less about the fate of their country than idle intellectuals in the West, as they are smart enough to see that they have zero stake in it. There is nothing in life an average Chinese gets from his country, and nor would he want to give anything back to it.

oreally6• 5 years ago

That's quite some level of denigration and generalization on the average chinese person you've put out.

Consider the fact that China raised millions out of poverty. Consider the fact that they're one of the few countries able to stand up to the US. Consider the fact China has the most opportunities out of the few chinese-majority countries in the world. It's a great deal for them.

nova77hn2• 5 years ago

“In America you’re free to criticise the American government. In China you’re also free to criticise the American government.” ;)

darkteflon6• 5 years ago

Haha, no disagreement there. ;)

oreally6• 5 years ago

Fully expecting this thread to be a shitshow of China-bashing. BBC's articles reference Adrian Zenz as the source, who is known to be an unreliable source with regards to China.

As someone who is from a small country, which can only be a kingmaker in the context of the big powers ala the US and China:

You western folks are being played hard by these narratives the western institutions are spouting. The chinese are reacting like this simply because they feel they're being wronged, and they've been wronged before.

The US's mission to spread democracy is not going to succeed if people feel they're being lied to. Hell, they'll even reject it.

alkonaut• 5 years ago

Unsure what human rights violations and protests against them (and protests against the protests) have to do with US foreign policy?

oreally6• 5 years ago

It can be used as a weapon of the western geopolitical world to pressure other countries as well as strengthen the positions of political figures via advocating the moralistic angle.

Ever heard of countries justifying their invasions of other countries as 'liberation'? It's a similar thing. Get the public to be on your side by reframing and aligning your foreign policy.

sol_invictus• 5 years ago

As someone also from a small country with no power or stakes in this equation: everybody is equally being played and if you're dualistic with your side-picking you're getting burned one way or another.

oreally6• 5 years ago

Agreed. Still one common goal we should all get behind is reaching for something closer to the truth.

Xinjiang cotton: Western clothes brands vanish as backlash grows

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