France law on social networks not waiting for the DSA debate at EU level

https://www.nextinpact.com/lebrief/45470/en-france-anticiper-digital-services-act-ignorer-droit-europeen-existant

by zoobab • 6 years ago

53 48 6 years ago

nextinpact.com

grenoire• 6 years ago

Anybody has an English (or French) resource detailing its contents?

_notreallyme_2• 6 years ago

Well, obviously a french version is easy to find : https://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/dyn/15/amendements/3649/C...

niea_112• 6 years ago

The DSA proposal in english : https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...

And a short presentation here : https://ec.europa.eu/info/strategy/priorities-2019-2024/euro...

pjc502• 6 years ago

That's a very long document, but skipping to the Articles it looks like they're planning to put in a "section 230" style explicit liability shield.

olouv• 6 years ago

This link https://www.nextinpact.com/article/45417/plateformes-et-mote... gives a bit more insight into this "rush" to transcribe a possible future EU law into national law.

It looks like the French government want to leverage the Trump/conservatives global de-platforming to push for new regulation on the US web super giants.

Interestingly, both French ministers (economy and digital) severely condemned the "unilateral" and "oligarchic" decision to de-platform Tump and conservatives. Pointing the lack of "judiciary or democratic supervision".

I think it is a smart move, Europe should clearly push for a sovereign alternative for these global-scale utility-like medium of communication. There is too much at stake.

_trampeltier• 6 years ago

What now ?!?, since one or two years, the EU forced social network to remove problematic content in less then 24 hours.

dagw2• 6 years ago

EU forced social network to remove problematic content in less then 24 hours.

They're in no way against censoring speech. They just want courts and governments to hold the monopoly over censoring speech.

throw_m2393392• 6 years ago

Interestingly, both French ministers (economy and digital) severely condemned the "unilateral" and "oligarchic" decision to de-platform Tump and conservatives. Pointing the lack of "judiciary or democratic supervision".

They are afraid that eventually, Twitter or Facebook is going to remove their conservative speech, if it rubs Twitter or Facebook employees the wrong way, and they'd be right. That's exactly what is going to happen.

But I'd argue, why are they still flocking to thus promoting these platforms at first place? Promote open techs, open protocols so that anybody with any client can subscribe to their messages without being forced to go on Twitter and co... it exists, it's called RSS, ActivePub... the tools of freedom are here and they don't take much effort at all.

edit: I feel like people are missing my point or maybe I didn't expressed it very well. Twitter and Facebook should be entitled to ban whomever they want on their platform, that's not the point. The point is governments and politicians should start promoting open protocols and technologies for communication instead of voting law for fear of getting their 'conservative' speech banned by these platforms they decided to speak on, often exclusively. That's all I'm saying.

Daho0n• 6 years ago

They are afraid that eventually, Twitter or Facebook is going to remove their conservative speech

Have they (and who are they? The ministers? Every Frenchmen alive?) said this themselves or are you spreading FUD?

Censoring speech is "removing something he said". France and Germany are for this. Censoring people is "removing a person because of what he said". France and Germany are both against this. Of course Facebook and Twitter take the easy way out instead of the ethical one.

dagw2• 6 years ago

is going to remove their conservative speech

No has ever been kicked off Twitter for claiming that their left wing opponent's tax plan will have unintended consequences that can lead to long term slowdown of GDP growth or that a minimum wage increase will lead to higher unemployment.

littlestymaar2• 6 years ago

Twitter or Facebook is going to remove their conservative speech, if it rubs Twitter or Facebook employees the wrong way

It's not what happened and it has nothing to do with Facebook or twitter employees (who have almost zero power, they haven't even unionized yet!).

Facebook or Twitter could have banned Trump & al. for content policy violation years ago (and they probably should have actually, because you know, policy violation) but they did not because conservatives were in charge and then had power to retaliate. Now they are banning them now, because now the democrats are in charge, and they are definitely going to retaliate hadn't social network ban Trump.

American social networks will do things which don't annoy the American government too much, so it leave them alone. What's happening here, is European govts wanting the same level of power than the US one.

op03• 6 years ago

They just have to mandate turning of the Like Count (and other half baked signaling). Things will revert to the old internet.

orange_tee• 6 years ago

Facebook are too greedy. They take take take and never give anything back. It is not good for their presence in other countries. You have to give the host some reason to want to keep you around. But these people at Facebook think they can go to a completely foreign market, setup shop, take over a huge chunk of the advertising industry, become an influential media platform overshadowing local media outlets, and they do that while employing barely any locals and avoiding taxes too boot. I name Facebook but this is probably true of other US tech giants too. Point is, this is not a symbiotic relationship. It is no wonder the EU are not happy.

gabereiser• 6 years ago

It’s not even symbiotic here in the US.

Facebook has a history of employing a few individuals to navigate the foreign market and then just go all in. No understanding of the local customs. See Facebook vs Myanmar. Facebook turned a blind eye to neo-nazi’s because engagement was up. Facebook is a cancer.

A_non_e-moose• 6 years ago

Facebook only maximizes profit to shareholders.

Destroy Facebook and other corporation will come back to do some morally questionable or society-breaking process that maximizes profit to shareholders.

The economic model of our society is the root of the problem. That is much more complex and difficult to solve or even just to talk about.

It saddens me that society's trend in fast paced, low attention, immediate gratification, and devaluation or intellectual disinterest of the humanities disciplines like philosophy, politics, economics, is making it so much harder to tackle this governance and societal problem. More or different tech is not a solution.

_notreallyme_2• 6 years ago

It doesn't seem to be this point here.

From my understanding of the proposal, they want the social media platforms (above a certain amount of connections) to be regulated like the TV is regulated: by the CSA (Audio Visual Concil).

They also force the TOS to precisely explain how and when they can ban/suspend an account, give all the details about a ban/suspension, and provide a mean to appeal.

They also have to appoint a contact for all legal matters with the government.

This proposal is an amendment for the law against separatism that is currently reviewed at the lower house.

levosmetalo• 6 years ago

Honestly, given how much power big foreign companies have in many countries, I started to realize that China and to some extent Russia was right from the beginning to not allow unloyal competition from the big tech giants. For example Germany have zero benefits for letting Google, Amazon, Facebook and co. to drain profit and suffocate local competition while not paying any taxes or creating any meaningful jobs here.

I wish Germany, France and the rest of EU would just push for more regulations and taxation of foreign digital companies, even if that would mean having a Great EU firewall.

Remember, even the USA would not be there where it is now if they agreed to the free trade agreement with the UK back in the time after gaining the independence. They would be just a source of cheep beef and wheat for UK overlords.

pjc502• 6 years ago

China and to some extent Russia

This is why there's so much propaganda blaming George Soros for everything; his funding of the anti-totalitarian Open Society Foundation has supported all sorts of opposition and human rights NGOs which threaten the power of the Russian one-party state.

The transition of the 90s succeeded in making Russia "capitalist", but not in making it democratic. Installing democracy from the outside has turned out to be a much more complicated and fraught project than first thought, partly because people can be surprisingly comfortable with totalitarianism so long as it's aimed at someone else.

88840-8855• 6 years ago

I love what you are saying and I fully agree.

I fully support more regulation and draconian taxation of foreign digital companies. The only way to make profit should be linked to a free API to access data so a "facebook client" can be fully hosted and operated here in Europe.

Aerroon• 6 years ago

For example Germany have zero benefits for letting Google, Amazon, Facebook and co. to drain profit and suffocate local competition while not paying any taxes or creating any meaningful jobs here.
I wish Germany, France and the rest of EU would just push for more regulations and taxation of foreign digital companies

See, this is the problem. You're looking at the big EU countries and stopping there. Smaller EU countries in many ways feel the same about larger EU countries. Foreign banks basically took over the banking sectors of former Soviet states and then you got things like the Danske Bank money laundering case. When Bulgarian truck drivers tried to use their competitive advantage of lower average incomes, rules were drafted to bar them from it. On top of all that brain drain is still ongoing. The EU as a whole is one of the most unequal economic zones in terms of income.

If those countries did things like you propose then there wouldn't be an EU or it would be significantly smaller.

Great EU firewall

I know what the internet is like under the lead of the US. It's not amazing, but it's pretty good. I'm afraid that EU-net will be a far worse place judging by how regulated many things are in Germany or how if things are against French (and other western European) interests then EU-wide rules are drafted to stop that.

Large EU countries along with the EU work as a good counterbalance to the US when it comes to the internet. But I fear that if you remove the US from the equation then you end to with something worse.

krrrh• 6 years ago

Germany have zero benefits for letting Google, Amazon, Facebook and co.

How are you defining Germany in a way that you are forgetting about Germans themselves? People are using these services largely because they derive benefit from them.

input_sh2• 6 years ago

Completely agree. A few years back I was convinced that there should be one global Internet.

Nowadays I'm leaning towards balkanization in a sense that big economic powerhouses should have their own "tech giants". Don't block small websites, but if the big ones aren't being fully cooperative, fuck em. Block em, invest in local alternatives, build your own Linux distros for public administration, regain your sense of sovereignty.

In other words: Facebook forking itself into an EU version that actually takes local context into account, employing people in the EU, and keeping the data within the EU = okay. One global Facebook that follows little to no rules and doesn't give anything back to local communities = not okay.

mensetmanusman3• 6 years ago

Value is an interesting question,

If I didn’t have access to Google during my scientific research in the country, I know my progress would have been much slower.

In an alternative universe, it would be interesting if the Internet was Balkanized and only the US had access to tools like Google scholar. How much would that affect the rate of research?

jariel• 6 years ago

Most of the surpluses from all of these companies go to the consumer. [1]

Google is immensely more valuable to people, than the profit it generates for it's investors.

Same for FB etc..

As a more acute example, consider that Amazon doesn't really make any money. They are a giant NGO in a way.

So when the consumer surplus is 100x the producer surplus, hurting the producer doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

There's literally no reason for the French people to use these services, it's fully their choice, and they are fully free.

[1] https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/188/concepts/definition-o...

lvs• 6 years ago

These are extractive companies wherever they are operating, even in the US.

jefftk2• 6 years ago

Facebook provides a lot of value to a lot of people: many of us find their products useful and enjoyable.

Facebook is operated the same way and other countries as their home country, they don't employ many people anywhere, because the products they offer are far more efficient than the products they are replacing, and don't need many people to operate.

In terms of taxes, if Facebook were avoiding taxes why wouldn't France have updated their rules already? Facebook has been operating there for over a decade. Unless you are claiming that Facebook is violating French tax law?

It's not clear to me what you think Facebook should do differently. It's sort of sounds to me like you think they should have put government ministers or their relatives on payroll to win favor, but you can't mean that? They should have hired a lot of French workers to do jobs that could instead be automated?

chmod775• 6 years ago

Facebook provides a lot of value to a lot of people: many of us find their products useful and enjoyable.

People enjoy alcohol too and alcohol isn't a net positive to society either.

It's not clear to me what you think Facebook should do differently.

Not trying to avoid taxation by incorporating in tax havens would be a pretty clear start.

michaelt• 6 years ago

It's not clear to me what you think Facebook should do differently.

The traditional trick to stopping the government regulating you is to figure out roughly what problems the government is considering regulation to solve, form an industry body with your competitors, then come up with a code of conduct that addresses the problems but without draconian enforcement.

That way you don't have to follow rules written by politicians, get your house 100% in order, and have a regulator breathing down your neck: You've just got to follow rules you've written yourself, and get your house well enough in order that legislators have more pressing things to focus on than you.

That might sound difficult - but if it was easy to run a $700 billion company, everyone would be doing it.

indymike• 6 years ago

The first law of being a parasite is "Never kill the host."

chrisseaton• 6 years ago

But these people at Facebook think they can go to a completely foreign market, setup shop, take over a huge chunk of the advertising industry, become an influential media platform overshadowing local media outlets, and they do that while employing barely any locals and avoiding taxes too boot.

If the locals don't want to use, advertise on, or consume media on Facebook then they wouldn't. If they do want to... then I guess that says it all doesn't it?

Sounds like you're pissed off at your fellow citizens for using Facebook rather than at Facebook for being available.

Reads like 'who do these people think they are coming along with their superior product and putting our inferior products out of business?'

Also if they don't want to employ people locally then maybe look at yourselves as to why? Facebook isn't inherently opposed to offices in other countries - there's a growing one in London for example.

Reventlov• 6 years ago

Main problem is that while the DSA is still not voted, you don't really know what will be in the text, and the old texts still apply. So, for some time, French law could be in opposition with European law. Good thing Thierry Breton is the European Commissioner for Internal Market.

dang• 6 years ago

Submissions to HN need to be in English. We have deep respect for la belle langue and other languages, but HN is an English-language site.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

France law on social networks not waiting for the DSA debate at EU level

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