Do not compare EU salaries with the US

https://twitter.com/NikkitaFTW/status/1345348397935587329

53 102 6 years ago

DO compare it and see how much one can end up saving in a given time in the US, even after paying for healthcare, education etc.

jason05972• 6 years ago

Did you read the Twitter thread? The person writing the Twitter thread clearly outlines their feelings about the need to contribute to the social safety net.

I wanna give back, im okay with that
I don't wanna make 250k while most people work three jobs

AntiImperialis42• 6 years ago

Yes, I did read the whole thread.

Nobody is stopping one from voluntarily donating to a non-profit or for-profit organization, or being involved in one for that matter.

In Europe, most people don't work 3 jobs because either it's not legal to do so or those jobs don't exist because of debilitating regulations... or at some point, making more isn't really worth it because of how high the taxes go up.

scotty792• 6 years ago

You'll get ruined in US if you get cancer in your close family despite 'paying for healthcare' all your life.

In my uncharitable opinion US is good for earning money as a young, highly educated person and for nothing else.

So go there when you are around 25, work your ass off at whoever pays the most for your skillset, spend as little as possible and bail before 35. Later you're screwed. You'll still make more and more there but the money is going to be useless.

marcinzm11• 6 years ago

You'll get ruined in US if you get cancer in your close family despite 'paying for healthcare' all your life.

Not really if you have insurance which as a software engineer you would have. Might hit your $10k out of pocket maximum but you salary will easily cover that.

edit: When my dad got cancer his insurance actually PAID him a cash payout for every treatment on top of paying the medical costs. He works at a non profit.

rayiner9• 6 years ago

https://healthpayerintelligence.com/news/cancer-patients-pai...

In a case study, a patient with lymphoma paid out-of-pocket healthcare costs from $6,446 in a large employer-sponsored health plan to $12,931 in a health plan on the individual health insurance market. These were all Affordable Care Act (ACA)-compliant plans.

Total out of pocket costs for cancer were $5.6 billion in 2018, with 1.8 million cases. That's about $3,100 out of pocket per diagnosis on average.

Over a career, you'll pay way more in additional taxes in Europe than whatever you'll save in out of pocket costs in the U.S. if you get cancer.

JPKab3• 6 years ago

You have an incredibly inaccurate take on the US healthcare system. I live here and I'm in my late 30s with a family. My wife is a cancer survivor. My oldest son was born 3 months premature. and yet I'm not penniless and broke because my health insurance paid for everything.

I'm not saying it's an ideal system and doesn't have major flaws but if you are a software engineer the scenario you are describing just isn't a thing. I'm sure it feels a lot better to tell yourself that when you realize you're being paid a quarter what you could be on the other side of the Atlantic.

kamyarg4• 6 years ago

Per the author's twit, without the higher taxes etc. they would not have been able to afford becoming a software engineer without this welfare setup.

Also, yes you save much more, but when your mother has cancer and dad is disabled(As the author explains), realistically much more than what you save ends up being spent to take care of them and paying their medical bills.

bserge2• 6 years ago

I have to say, she might be wrong about that. The US is different, sometimes worse, but people have adapted.

In the US, she would've been able to buy a laptop for dirt cheap or get it from some charity or just someone looking to get rid of it for free. I myself got my first laptops and smartphones from the US, it was cheaper than buying locally, believe it or not.

Most, if not all MOOCs are from the US. Tons of blogs, content, documentation in English, written by Americans. Free for all, just learn and show your skills.

But yes, if there's an unforeseen medical emergency, you could go bankrupt in the US, while you'd be taken care of for free (or nearly free) in Europe.

marcinzm11• 6 years ago

They'd realistically have Medicaid in the US which doesn't have high out of pocket costs. Probably social security payments for disability and various other government programs. Some programs would even pay the mother (or a relative) to stay home and help their disabled spouse. Community college is fairly inexpensive in the US so there's that as well.

jandrewrogers2• 6 years ago

As someone who spent the first half of their life in poverty, this is not an accurate characterization of that situation in the US. Becoming a software engineer in the US is available to just about anyone, basically the cost of a cheap computer that sometimes literally rounds to "free" and some time. That is how I became a software engineer while working long hours at low-skill jobs. I eventually worked at FAANG and earned (much more than) $250k. This isn't a unique story; one of the under-rated aspects of living in the US is that this is realistically possible and many people do it. Low salaries for engineers don't help anyone except the company owners.

Poor people generally don't pay for healthcare in the US for the most part. I have multiple family members that received (literally) state-of-the-art cancer treatment at top hospitals at no cost to themselves. The hospitals don't even try to collect anything. That's pretty normal in the US. Having to pay expensive medical bills is something that happens to the middle class, not the poor.

arctangos• 6 years ago

I hope that advocates of purchasing power parity comparisons are prepared to factor in implicitly consumed but not easily purchasable goods. Otherwise, they would miss out on many of the things that truly matter in life.

For example, in the EU, my middle class neighbors’ children safely bike and ride the train to and from their excellent publicly funded schools, after school activities, and friends’ houses requiring little to no adult supervision while in transit.* What do private schooling, chauffeurs, and security personnel cost in the US, anyway?

*Of course, COVID does interfere somewhat with this, but this is true worldwide.

exabrial2• 6 years ago

It seems she's fairly ignorant of how things work here as the vast majority of his fears are unfounded. That's ok though, the point about comparing salaries is very valid, there's extreme cost of living differences among many other things.

For a lot of Americans, the fear we have is being completely dependent on the government. Look at who is exiting presidential office, look who is entering. Attaching our fates to these bozos isn't something I necessarily relish.

digianarchist• 6 years ago

Disagree on the cost of living point. London and Dublin are comparable to a lot of major US cities yet wages are much lower than these cities.

Even Canada pays better than a lot of European cities when you factor in COL between say Toronto and London.

raverbashing3• 6 years ago

Even Canada pays better than a lot of European cities when you factor in COL between say Toronto and London

Doubt. The sinking CAD is an issue and COL (except for rents) is usually lower in Europe

tao_oat• 6 years ago

What do you think her fears are, and why are they unfounded?

I understood her primary point as being about inequality and justice: "I don't wanna make 250k while most people work three jobs"

JPKab3• 6 years ago

I grew up in a family whose income put us below poverty line.

I didn't have to pay for college, due to Pell grants, yet she thinks that in the USA, a good student can't go to college without money. That's just not a thing. But the media in the US creates that impression for Europeans.

Also, the idea that poor people with cancer in the US are left to die. Not accurate. Medicare, medicaid, etc. Not saying its good, just saying she's deeply misinformed in the typical socialist left-wing media stereotypes and oversimplifications.

dionidium• 6 years ago

For starters, “most” people don’t work three jobs, obviously, and the U.S. is in fact a very wealthy country with a vast middle class. Second, anybody who wants to can go to college. I went on student loans and Pell Grants. Third, we don’t have universal health care in this country, but poor people actually do get care and are insured, via Medicaid. Cancer patients aren’t left to die in the street.

It’s good that there are so many discussions on the internet about the people who fall though the cracks, but it can create an inaccurate picture of reality, which is what seems to have happened to this observer. On the facts, she has a confused understanding of both the typical and the extreme American experience.

jelliclesfarm4• 6 years ago

I understood her primary point to be ‘no one should want to make 250k when most people work three jobs’.

jdmoreira• 6 years ago

It’s a woman writing

exabrial2• 6 years ago

crap, thanks

Denvercoder9• 6 years ago

There's a third option: fix your government.

bserge2• 6 years ago

the fear we have is being completely dependent on the government

It's the same in Europe, though. No one wants their government to have too much power.

The political class is both out of touch and untouchable in the US, EU and pretty much most countries I'd say.

908B64B1973• 6 years ago

Good thing the article was flagged.

She's wrong and misleading on so many things, It's really hard for me not to think she was somehow paid to write that. By whom I have no clue.

It reads like a PR piece to fear potential high value EU expats, a cheap attempt at preventing them from jumping ships instead of actually fixing the underlying issues.

I've done a little bit of international recruiting and it's always surprising the number of misconceptions folks have.

cnorthwood2• 6 years ago

It seems very hard to compare the two figures. I guess the interesting way to compare them would be what's the disposable income you have to spend normalised against purchasing power. So gross salary, less taxes (payroll and any others if applicable), pension contributions, student loan repayments, medical insurance contributions (and other out-of-pocket expenses relating to that you may have to pay in a typical year), and then baseline cost-of-living (rent/mortgage payments), but there are so many variables there it seems very hard to be directly comparable.

All I know is if I earned what I did now (which is an excellent UK salary) in Silicon Valley, I wouldn't be able to afford to live by myself in a two-bedroom flat in a desirable area, which is what I do now. I've no idea how much I would have to earn in SV to have the same quality of life as I do in Manchester, UK. (I figured it out for London and it's approximately a £20k premium due to the rental premium in London)

sjg007• 6 years ago

Put it this way, in Silicon Valley, a family of 4 making $100k USD qualify for affordable housing programs.

scrose2• 6 years ago

That seems pretty good to be honest. I’ve seen affordable housing listings in NYC for families of 1-2 with income limits topping out at 160K.

marcinzm11• 6 years ago

Keep in mind that FAANG silicon valley paid something like $400-500k/year for those with 10 years experience pre-COVID. With top notch health insurance and other benefits (except vacation). Comes out to $250+k take home income after taxes (without deductions, no spouse, etc.). At that amount other considerations essentially no longer matter.

cnorthwood2• 6 years ago

Is that cash, or is a significant amount of that stocks/shares or other non-cash reimbursement (which I assume is subject to tax at the point it's realised)?

TMWNN• 6 years ago

It seems very hard to compare the two figures. I guess the interesting way to compare them would be what's the disposable income you have to spend normalised against purchasing power. So gross salary, less taxes (payroll and any others if applicable), pension contributions, student loan repayments, medical insurance contributions (and other out-of-pocket expenses relating to that you may have to pay in a typical year), and then baseline cost-of-living (rent/mortgage payments), but there are so many variables there it seems very hard to be directly comparable.

At $45,284 the US has the highest household net disposable income per capita in the OECD (http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/united-states/), where "[disposable income](http://stats.oecd.org/glossary/detail.asp?ID=46)" is adjusted for purchasing power and accounts for healthcare and government benefits. By contrast Canada is $30,854 (http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/canada/), below the OECD average of $33,604.

jelliclesfarm4• 6 years ago

She is merely saying..as I read it..that she doesn’t mind paying more taxes because she has already benefited more from the system than she expects to earn.

The world we live in right now was created because of CAPITAL. Not TAXES.

Even taxes exist only because of capital.

I am tired of people instructing others how to think. If someone wants to compare their EU salaries with the US, let them!

What is even the point of the Twitter thread except that the author says she is ‘ok with paying more taxes’. This literally has no value unless she also reveals how much she pays and how much she has gotten out of the system.

The problem we have with our economic system..at least in theory..is the lack of A Constant. Either we should have a constant fixed population or a constant steady rate of consumption or stable prices or constant renewable resources. It is very difficult to have maintain equilibrium all the time when there is so much dynamic flux.

Kreotiko• 6 years ago

I agree, I don’t consider a good trade a much higher salary but having to live in that society. Life is not only about money and in this sector we are lucky enough to have a above average salary everywhere in the world.

hn3333• 6 years ago

The US salary situation is clearly superior. I wish I had somehow made my way into the US after getting my MsC in CS. But some choices led me elsewhere. Anyway, if I did, I'd probably be retired by now.

xxffgg557• 6 years ago

So many assume that programmers get handed high 6fig salaries here... Good luck with that, hope you are really the best of the best or you're barely going to scrape 6fig despite what all the comments / articles say!

rayiner9• 6 years ago

Whatever your politics, we should endeavor to stop giving oxygen to rhetoric that misstates easily verifiable facts:

I don't wanna make 250k while most people work three jobs

About 5% of people work more than one job in the US: https://www.qualityinfo.org/-/it-takes-two-or-more-oregon-s-...

In Germany, where the author is based, that figure is 3.5 million of a labor force of 45 million--over 7% https://www.dw.com/en/germany-more-and-more-people-work-mult...

My father is disabled and my mom had the mentioned medical issues.

Portugal has a disability pension of 430 euro per month: https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/progdesc/ssptw/2018-2019/eur...

The average Social Security Disability benefit in the U.S. is $1,260 per month: https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/082015/what-are-max...

Additional benefits are paid to disabled workers with families--the average is $2,200. That is higher than the cost-of-living (PPP) adjusted average monthly wage in Portugal.

My mom had cancer on minimum wage back in Portugal and we didn't pay a fucking cent

A minimum wage worker with a disabled spouse would almost certainly be eligible for Medicaid, which has extremely low out-of-pocket costs: https://www.medicaid.gov/medicaid/cost-sharing/cost-sharing-...

You can take anecdotes and spin out a story that is highly misleading. You can find people abusing public benefits and spin out a myth about "welfare queens." But you can also find plenty of people who have fallen through the cracks of the system for whatever reason, and spin out a myth that we have no safety net and people are dying in the streets.

handelaar• 6 years ago

Whatever your politics, we should endeavor to stop giving oxygen to rhetoric that misstates easily verifiable facts

* Your comparison between Portugal's social security system and the US's includes only one source of support, but several are available. (Cost of housing is one.) Neglecting this easily-verifiable fact has the same misinformational outcome as lying.

* "Medicaid has extremely low out-of-pocket costs" is not a reply to "we didn't pay a fucking cent". Your (not-included) estimates of how much money a US resident definitely will have to pay is by definition never going to be as good as zero. It's almost like you're setting out to smooth over this also-easily-verifiable fact with "rhetoric".

leereeves2• 6 years ago

Your comparison between Portugal's social security system and the US's includes only one source of support, but several are available.

Several sources of support are available in the US as well, including food stamps, medicaid, and housing assistance.

edbob• 6 years ago

"Medicaid has extremely low out-of-pocket costs" is not a reply to "we didn't pay a fucking cent". Your (not-included) estimates of how much money a US resident definitely will have to pay is by definition never going to be as good as zero. It's almost like you're setting out to smooth over this also-easily-verifiable fact with "rhetoric".

This reasoning is absurd. If I have to pay $10/mo in the US, but I make $100/mo more in the US, then I'm still up $90/mo. No one cares about "not paying a fucking cent" if "not paying" actually means "I'm $90/mo poorer".

raverbashing3• 6 years ago

You're technically correct, but are picking at straws

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Even from your link:

Nearly 3 million people worked a "minijob" — meaning they earned €450 ($499) or less per month — on the side of a full-time job.

So they have a "main job". How many of those in the US would just be unaccounted for? How big is the size of "under the table" jobs in the US?

How easy is to qualify for Medicaid or SS aid in the US?

Portugal is a low COL country, 430 Eur there is not comparable to $1260 where depending on the US you are it can be a lot of money or it can be nothing

pidg3• 6 years ago

Not to mention that Portugal has a nationalised healthcare system. I think I'd rather have 430 Eur + nationalised healthcare than $1260 and have to pay out of pocket (or deal with years of paperwork and insurance claims)

tptacek3• 6 years ago

His analysis acknowledges the cost of living in Portugal.

jelliclesfarm4• 6 years ago

Thanks for the data.

code4tee• 6 years ago

Very little in this post is true and highlights the sort of false image people paint of the US:

- Most people work multiple jobs to make ends meet: False

- Low income people don’t have health coverage: False

- The US doesn’t have any form of government safety net health coverage for its people: False. Medicaid covers low income population and Medicare covers the older population.

Not saying any of the above is perfect but these false pictures people paint of the US deserve to be called out.

mkl95• 6 years ago

A few things about the EU's (especially southern / eastern EU) job market:

- There is a job shortage at the moment. This is not as acute in tech but the situation in tech is not good either.

- Startups are chronically poor. There is little investment in startups and it's hard to secure it. If you are involved with a small startup it's likely it has existed for 5+ years and it has never had a round of more than €100k.

- Companies can't just compete with each other here the way they do in the US. There are a number of EU laws that limit job mobility and competition, which mostly affect tech / engineering / insert qualified trade. This is an issue for companies and workers.

- Salaries are low when compared to rent and property prices.

Feel free to avoid the EU vs US salary conversation. As a developer in the uglier side of the EU I know experienced developers in the not-so-well-off states of the US are doing way better than experienced developers in the not-so-well-off countries of the EU.

908B64B1973• 6 years ago

Startups are chronically poor. There is little investment in startups and it's hard to secure it. If you are involved with a small startup it's likely it has existed for 5+ years and it has never had a round of more than €100k.

Why not re-incorporate in SV?

Sounds like the VC ecosystem is simply broken. Where are Europeans investing then?

uxp100• 6 years ago

This feels like a faux-woke way to justify workers being paid less. The subtext here is that European workers can't be paid more because of overhead of various public services, and I don't think that's true. If there were a few big European companies closely located that were hiring as much as SV tech hired, I think wages would go up. Not matching US salaries, but some.

I really don't know anything, but I guess Germany where I would expect that to happen. If some self driving car related company funded by idk, BMW or Siemens or someone tried to scale up really fast. The other day people were mocking the EUs program to encourage European semiconductor tech, but I think Neural Network accelerator chips are still a niche that new companies could develop in.

waihtis• 6 years ago

In this context, it would also be fair to note that Portugal gets much more than it gives into the EU: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48256318

SuperFluffy• 6 years ago

I live in Germany, and I do compare salaries to American numbers. This is the very reason why I will never work for German companies ever again, because I'm not willing to be dependent on wage labour until the end of my days. I am working remotely for a US startup, who a) value my skillset instead of using antiquated tech, and b) who pay twice what I made before in Germany, and c) recently made me a cofounder.

German startups aside, our big multinationals happily create teams working in the the US and Germany, while paying their German employees a fraction of their American colleagues. I know of cases in pharma, automotive, and erp.

I'm loathe seeing this contentment with the wage situation in Germany. If wages for in demand fields like Software engineering are essentially flat for 30 years and €70k are considered an amazing salary, how exactly are wages supposed to rise in service sector fields, for example for caregivers? Salaries as part of gdp have deceased over that time range, but the prevalent ideology among my crowd is that one shall not work for money, because that's apparently a dirty thing to do.

Software engineers not pushing for significantly higher wages and gaslighting people who do makes them accomplices to the wage surpression that is rampant in Germany and the EU at large.

foogazi• 6 years ago

I don't wanna make 250k while most people work three jobs

1. no way “most” people work three jobs 2. But if they were they would still be working three jobs wether you had a US or EU salary

vinni2• 6 years ago

Many comments here point out Medicaid and Medicare. What about sick pay? In most EU countries you can keep large fraction of your salary until you are able to work again. And what about parental leave? It is another benefit most Europeans enjoy. Finally vacations I get 30 days stress free vacation per year. I might be wrong but are there alternatives for these in the US?

Bancakes• 6 years ago

Don't sell products in Europe for their USD price in EUR.

Do not compare EU salaries with the US

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