Why China Turned Against Jack Ma

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/24/technology/china-jack-ma-alibaba.html

by bookofjoe • 6 years ago

72 95 6 years ago

nytimes.com

neonate• 6 years ago

https://archive.is/xZlbR

webwielder2• 6 years ago

Same reason religions are tamped down under authoritarian communist regimes? Nothing must overshadow the Party.

underseacables11• 6 years ago

Ma didn’t just overshadow the party, he overshadowed the Chairman of the party.

mola• 6 years ago

It's not as if God likes to share the lime lite. Pretty sure orginized religion invented monopoly of values and opinions.

mc32• 6 years ago

His problem is he would not subjugate to the true center of power, possibly by overplaying his hand and underestimating the need of the party to exercise supreme control and its refusal to share power.

julianlam• 6 years ago

That's the question at the center of all this, isn't it. Who actually holds the power here, the state, or the company whose information they hold could severely embarrass anyone who opposes them?

I can't even begin to imagine what similar companies in NA (e.g. Facebook) have on our elected officials.

hnracer6• 6 years ago

Are there examples of large public companies releasing compromising information on elected officials in response to political threats or pressure?

ENOTTY2• 6 years ago

We shouldn't forget that Bezos himself was the one who got blackmailed very recently. It wasn't a tech company that did it, but it was a right-wing media outlet with an axe to grind.

justicezyx5• 6 years ago

Did US turn against Google and Facebook? I think so. The trend is clear, the Internet giants are becoming so powerful that government feels threatened and cornered.

bookofjoe• 6 years ago

When I remarked on Twitter about 10 years ago that Mark Zuckerberg was the most powerful person on earth, I got attacked big-time.

simonh2• 6 years ago

Power to do what?

That’s not an attack, I just don’t know what you mean by power.

konjin4• 6 years ago

The difference is that the worst that can happen to Zuck et al is having their company split up and paying more in taxes.

Ma on the other hand could well end up getting Epsteined.

hnracer6• 6 years ago

And that's not a small difference, it's the difference between a liberal democracy (with its many mistakes and flaws) and an authoritarian dictatorship. The both-sides fallacy should be avoided here and elsewhere.

monocasa3• 6 years ago

Weird that the example you used for what couldn't happen to Zuck was a western near billionaire killed in his jail cell in Manhattan.

justicezyx5• 6 years ago

Jack Ma was not foolish enough to meddle the high power. Mr. Jack Ma got this status precisely because he knows the boundary. Those dared would have already been dead long before reaching the status close to Mr. Ma.

One who think that secrets can coerce people, is treating the owners of the secrets as passive; which were never the behavior pattern of the powerful.

One who rises to the top, practices control and manipulate over others. Not the opposite.

frongpik• 6 years ago

Who's going to provide the most successfull data collection platform (Android, etc.) for CIA/NSA? Not only people around the world carry a device with a mic and a gps tracker, they voluntarily and with enthusiasm report all their whereabouts. They in fact compete with each other about who can provide a better and more detailed timeline of their life. This is better than if everyone had a gps chip implanted in them. If anything, the US will be super careful to not disrupt Google and Facebook too much.

starkd• 6 years ago

Because the arrogance of the ccp has finally shown itself.

varjag4• 6 years ago

This sounds much like astroturfed campaigns typical in authoritarian states once a public figure is deemed the enemy. It's wild how Western reporters take the "peoples comments" at face value.

underseacables11• 6 years ago

Western reporters treat China the same way Silicon Valley reporters treat major tech companies. The reporters are afraid of upsetting them out of fear of retribution.

ngokevin3• 6 years ago

From what I've seen, all the media (and thus the majority of American people) 100% rag on China any chance they can get. They are public enemy number one, and anti-China sentiments are popular and applauded. I don't remember the last time I've seen positive articles about China.

apsec112• 6 years ago

A lot of tech company reporters seem to write nothing but negative articles. David Streitfeld, for example, wrote nothing but negative pieces every week or two for years, at least the last time I checked pre-pandemic.

skybrian• 6 years ago

I don't know why you think that given all the negative press that big tech has been getting for at least five years.

franklampard8• 6 years ago

That is just factually incorrect. For the recent years, Western reporters trended to report negatively about tech companies and China.

hnracer6• 6 years ago

It's wild and rather irresponsible given the censorship and surveillance that people in China are subjected to.

underseacables11• 6 years ago

China is an insecure authoritarian nation that desperately wants to be accepted, and seen as a legitimate, first world superpower. However their actions have made it such that for generations, rational individuals will always second-guess everything they do.

“...well yeah but, it’s China!”

It’s unfortunate but How often do we see comments like that? China has been such a brutal, oppressive nation that it’s really hard to overlook, and accept at face value anything that comes out of it.

tehjoker2• 6 years ago

tbf this is pretty similar to what the left in the US says about billionaires. I wouldn't completely discount it as state propaganda.

In the US, it is incredible how often reporters parrot security state talking points without any research into whether they're accurate, such as how people piled on Russia after the recent hacking scandal without any evidence shown, just a gut insinuation as far as I know.

The only advice I can give is: always be skeptical. period.

varjag4• 6 years ago

There is a huge difference in freedom of expressing your opinion online between your country and authoritarian states. I know your first instinct would be to say "yes but…", but it's not. Not even close, not even 0.1%.

People without first hand experience often do not comprehend it, even if accept the argument logically. But when you live there, you grow up with the 6th sense of political momentum. It's as natural as breathing. You are not starting to shit on a powerful person in your country unless you sense a strong political tailwind.

karmasimida4• 6 years ago

Both are true.

Jack Ma was a governmental sponsored big tech monopoly that hated by many small merchants.

Now the government decided to punish Alibaba, so the crowds cheered, for whom the saddest part is the whole thing has little to do with them from start to end

varjag4• 6 years ago

Sure. Just that the moment (if) he settles it with CCP under the carpet, all this "grandson Ma" stuff in the comments will stop overnight.

konjin4• 6 years ago

Go at a homeless camp in SF and look around for someone who hates Google because their old rent controlled unit got sold.

No astroturf needed to find people who hate the rich in a society that punishes the poor.

varjag4• 6 years ago

So were these homeless Chinese proletarian people in favor of Ma before? What happened? Why it coincided with his falling out of favor? :)

tomcam• 6 years ago

How do we punish the poor?

justicezyx5• 6 years ago

People's comments are real, and CCP's manipulation, too, is real.

Mr. Ma famously claimed that 996 is a blessing of fortune [1], despite the global outcry on 996, Jack was untouched almost entirely in the media and online circle. He probably was deemed a member of the entrepreneur class, which cannot be unethical I guess?

Jack said that he is not interested in money on CCTV (the national TV station) [2], a rather hypocritical statement.

He claimed that Chinese banking system works as pawnshop, while at the same time his Ant works like "payday loan". He claimed that Chinese financial system is not innovative enough, while Ant is repeating the same gambling practiced 10 years ago.

Jack joked that AI is Alibaba Intelligence in front of Elon Musk. Universally ridiculed in China.

Jack was a close friend of actress Zhao Wei was caught in camera of close interchanges, (Google 马云赵薇) Mrs Zhao also participate Ant IPO through her mother. She was banned from security market for misconduct [3]. After that, Jack said they were not close at all [4].

There are plenty more. Probably most were censored already. These are just the most brazen ones I suppose.

Remember that Chinese were indoctrinated through Communism ideology. Mr. Ma can even appear in public is itself a proof that he is under the protection of CCP while he is still useful.

An ordinary citizen, showing these behaviors, would have to worry about their personal safety at all times; and would be mocked everyday online. Not for Mr. Jack Ma though.

Now let's see how far CCP wants to expose Mr. Jack Ma to the people's resentment...

[1] https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/15/business/jack-ma-996-china/in...

[2] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oVi5EGbZy1A

[3] http://www.xinhuanet.com/fortune/2018-04/16/c_129851599.htm

https://3g.163.com/dy/article/ED813TL60542805D.html?spss=ada...

[4] https://m.sohu.com/a/209719774_583509/?pvid=000115_3w_a

elefanten• 6 years ago

Can you elaborate about the "can even appear in public" and "worry about their personal safety" parts of your comment? I'm curious and not sure I understand if I'm taking them correctly.

Are you saying that a sufficiently unpopular public figure would have a high likelihood of being physically attacked on the street?

underseacables11• 6 years ago

He started making more money than the politicians.

H8crilA2• 6 years ago

Ant Finance was incredibly "predatory" in how it was issuing high interest loans to poor people, at least in the CCP perception. They do not allow such things. It's that simple, it's detest for "payday loans".

karmasimida4• 6 years ago

Ant Finance can't take the profit and offload the risk to the bank system.

That is not how finance works in any country

H8crilA2• 6 years ago

Oh boy, you're in for a ride, read about fannie and freddie and the ownership society :). Student debt has exactly the same underwriting, all handled by the government.

chaostheory2• 6 years ago

I don’t think Ma was old enough to remember living under an emperor like Mao. Maybe he doesn’t realize that Xi is one now?

Xi’s reign is bad for China’s progress, but good for every other country. China will become more centralized and bad laws will be enforced which will disrupt all progress towards innovation. The danger of a Chinese metro surpassing Silicon Valley is gone for now.

The longer Xi and his allies rule, the more China will remain destined to be a giant copy machine, nothing less and nothing more.

aeternum• 6 years ago

What evidence do you have that Xi's reign has been bad for China's progress?

China's progress has been quite impressive recently. An intelligent benevolent dictator is probably the best form of government, the problem is that dictators rarely remain benevolent.

So far though, it looks like most of Xi's decisions have left China better off. Their infrastructure is now significantly better that the US. Investments abroad are positioning them well for the future, and they are even taking the lead in terms of carbon neutrality.

chaostheory2• 6 years ago

It’s just conjecture based on China’s history. Mainly, what happens when things decentralize vs being centralized? China’s growth has largely depended on decentralization. Now Xi is reversing course with centralization.

As for China’s current success, Xi has only come to power in recent years. If we’re being honest, Zhou Enlai and Deng Xiaoping deserve more credit For China’a current state than Xi for building the foundation and engine of China’s growth. Xi is only inheriting it, and will likely run it to the ground with his policies.

nitwit005• 6 years ago

The rising dislike of the tech giants and the anti-trust investigations are extremely similar to what is happening in Europe and the US, so I don't particularly see why this is some sort of surprising thing requiring special explanation.

hnracer6• 6 years ago

It's the proximity of the situation to Jack Ma's comments that tips you off as to the true reason for the actions. It's not just normal anti-trust, the timing suggests an attempt to punish any opposition to the CCP or Xi.

geodel• 6 years ago

At some point one is gonna get timing right or the act right. It seems to me chinese government has got their act right.

franklampard8• 6 years ago

Because when a big tech company becomes a monopoly, the government will regulate?

It is already a combination of Amazon + PayPal + Instacart + Netflix

duxup• 6 years ago

The opaque nature of the Chinese government makes it hard for me to tell what anyone's motivations are. I'm inclined to think this is a power play by the government to deal with someone they don't like.

At the same time I also think what I've read about Ant Group makes me think that financially their ability to loan to folks with little to no collateral and offload the risk on other institutions is unwise and risky.

davidtranjs• 6 years ago

Because of the power and propaganda of the government in communist country. It is very to manipulate people to turn against Jack Ma. He must have thought that he has a lot of power but the truth is he is a money making tool for politicians.

ENOTTY2• 6 years ago

It's sort of interesting that for having the same goal of reining in tech giants' power, China uses the language of Marxism while the US uses language like the rule of law, market competition, etc.

jkingsbery2• 6 years ago

"A growing number of people in China seem to feel the opportunities that people like Mr. Ma enjoyed are disappearing"

As of 2021-01-04, it appears that's not all that's disappeared: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9108421/Chinese-tec...

“An outstanding people’s billionaire like Jack Ma will definitely be hanged on top of the lamppost,”... The Communist Party seems more than willing to tap into that resentment.

I wonder given that Jack Ma hasn't been seen in two months, if the author would still juxtapose these two paragraphs in this way?

Why China Turned Against Jack Ma

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