New iMacs run fans at full on all drives other than Apple supplied...

http://blog.macsales.com/10146-apple-further-restricts-upgrade-options-on-new-imacs

by zdw • 15 years ago

159 94 15 years ago

blog.macsales.com

monochromatic• 15 years ago

Site is slow/down, so here's a mirror.

http://blog.macsales.com.nyud.net/10146-apple-further-restri...

ddlatham• 15 years ago

Apple's trying to build the best integrated product, and they're willing to give up some standard parts and interfaces to get there. If you want to be able to swap out components, an iMac may not be the best choice for you.

karl_nerd2• 15 years ago

You mean like the 5-point torx screw in the Macbook Air? http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/10/macbook-air-teardown/

ugh3• 15 years ago

The one where you can buy the screwdriver from Amazon for $8?

fiblye2• 15 years ago

I can understand wanting to build a reliable system, but hard drives are the most unreliable part of any modern PC. A user should have the right to replace them in the event of failure or if it's simply not enough storage at a later point. Apple traditionally taught users how to service computers themselves: http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/imacG5_20inch_harddrive.pdf

The hard drives and RAM are by far the most overpriced components in Macs, and I see this as nothing more than Apple trying to squeeze out some extra money.

jsz02• 15 years ago

The older G5 iMac was easy to take apart. The new thinner, more tightly integrated, iMacs are not. I can definitely understand why Apple doesn't recommend users do it themselves. If you buy something like a Mac Pro Apple will give you step by step instructions on how to replace a hard drive. It's designed to be highly user serviceable. Personally I would not buy another iMac until they are redesigned to be more user serviceable.

cturner• 15 years ago

    The hard drives and RAM are by far the most overpriced
    components in Macs, and I see this as nothing more than
    Apple trying to squeeze out some extra money.

It won't be deliberate. The Apple engineers must be capable guys, and a rule from on-high to hurt customers like that would have a bad awful effect on morale in a team of good engineers. They're an integrated hardware company and probably a bit of an echo-chamber. This will be an accident from that.

__david__• 15 years ago

> The hard drives and RAM are by far the most overpriced components in Macs,

Currently they are. Usually they are. But it's not always the case: When I bought my MacBook a year ago the DDR-3 prices at newegg were within $10 of Apple's upgrade price. That was the first time I'd ever opted for the Apple memory.

michh• 15 years ago

I don't expect to be able to upgrade the graphics card or the CPU but swapping out the harddrive or adding more memory used to be relatively easy for iMacs. Certainly not impossible.

What if in five years your harddrive crashes and they've already switched to yet another proprietary temperature monitoring standard and no longer sell drives equipped with the old system?

I've been using the same iMac for 5 years now (and upgraded the disk to an SSD about 6 months ago). Not being able to do that with a new one is a deal breaker.

bxr• 15 years ago

Apple does make good products, and for that reason I willingly sacrifice the ability to use the product in all the different ways I can their competitor's. I understand that the cost of a polished UI/UX is making some things impossible. However, there are things outside of the use cases they design for that would be "hard", but great for advanced users. Instead of just leaving them in the hard, warranty-voiding "you're on your own" territory like other vendors. they have a tendency to go the extra mile to make them impossible.

G_Morgan2• 15 years ago

Yeah the fact it forces you to buy their absurdly marked up HDDs is just a convenient side effect.

xentronium• 15 years ago

> Apple's trying to build the best integrated product, and they're willing to give up some standard parts and interfaces to get there. If you want to be able to swap out components, an iMac may not be the best choice for you.

Then their policy on hard drive replacement capability is fairly inconsistent. Why do you forbid hdd replacement for imacs and let do it on macbook pro?

adolph• 15 years ago

Getting temp info from the drive itself seems like a simpler approach than some taped-on thermal sensor. It will be interesting to see what kind of work-around/enhancement Other World will develop.

petercooper2• 15 years ago

I put an SSD in mine and, yep, that happened. So I put a bit of wire across the sockets in the sensor cable and now it monitors at a constant 30C with no fan activity. No fuss, no hassle, and SSDs don't need serious cooling anyway. Seems a bit of a mountain out of a molehill story from my POV.

joshfinnie• 15 years ago

I think having to short out a sensor on your computer because you changed the hard drive warrants such a story.

Luckily for you, you used a SSD and don't have to worry about cooling... What about the people wanting to add a 1TB drive or simply needing to replace their dead one?

petercooper2• 15 years ago

It seems this idea might not work with the latest edition but on the previous generation you could do the the same and then run smcfancontrol. A handy free tool that lets you set the minimum RPM of any fan in the system - works a treat. The article seems to suggest this might not work in the newer ones, alas, but I haven't got one to try it on.

martin_k• 15 years ago

I just had a similar experience with my Macbook Pro (Mid-2009): The SATA controller supports SATA II. But if you use any SATA II drive with that model, you get occasional freezes in the best case, and the machine doesn't boot in the worst. The problem is apparently an improperly shielded SATA cable, but Apple doesn't care because: They never supplied any SATA II drives for that device.

bonzoesc• 15 years ago

What should they do? The computer works as shipped, they didn't have to go out and find a SATA controller that doesn't support the newer standard, and they didn't have to ship the extra weight and added cost of extra shielding needed for a standard they weren't using.

brudgers2• 15 years ago

By introducing the hardware test failure for any non-Apple drive, Apple owns more of the life-cycle of the consumer's computer.

Now independent repair shops have to order Apple drives rather than something off of NewEgg, and this reduces their potential margins and makes Genius Bar service more profitable and cost competitive - particularly given that upgrade and replacement drives from the Genius Bar are only marked up once and that getting consumers to visit the Apple store has significant value in and of itself..

[Aside] IANL - but it is my understanding that in the US a manufacturer cannot void a warranty for using non-manufacturer produced parts for repairs or upgrades. The introduction of a hardware error appears to be a legal strategy to get around this.

montagg2• 15 years ago

That's a very interesting legal angle. I'd love to know if a lawyer could confirm if that's a valid way to look at it.

gcb• 15 years ago

Seems to work for printer manufacturers.

hga• 15 years ago

Yeah, but Apple stores are not exactly ubiquitous; from my part of SW Missouri (Joplin) the nearest is in Tulsa, OK, 2 hours and a hundred miles away. Add another 60+ miles and 1 hour+ from the main population center of SW Missouri (Springfield area). I'd be upset about this if I hadn't given up on the company in 1986.

mirkules• 15 years ago

Can these fans be controlled by SMC Fan Control? (http://homepage.mac.com/holtmann/eidac/software/software.htm...) I realize this is an intermediary solution, and a dangerous one at that.

The other thing is, I don't fully understand why fan noise is such a problem? I have a PC under my desk that sounds like an F15 with afterburners engaged (and an iMac on the desk)...

fiblye2• 15 years ago

I once had a dysfunctional iMac that sounded like a vacuum and it was unbearable. Maybe for some people it doesn't matter, but I can't say I like having the sound of a vacuum blasting just a foot away.

I returned it to Apple the next day and got an upgraded model at no cost.

Someone2• 15 years ago

I am not saying this claim is bogus, but I do not believe it at face value, either.

Reading the Wikipedia page on SATA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_ATA#Cables.2C_connectors...), I loose track as to the number of different SATA power connectors in existence.

So, it could well be that that new connector is SATA standard, but rarely seen in the wild.

Similarly, on-board temperature sensors could be in some SATA standard/extension/optional API. http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/howto-monitor-hard-drive-tempe... to point in that direction. It states "hddtemp utility will give you the temperature of your hard drive by reading data from S.M.A.R.T. on drives that support this feature. Only modern hard drives have a temperature sensor."

pudquick• 15 years ago

If you read the article a little more carefully, you'll understand that it's still the same SATA 15-pin connector (I mean if it wasn't, you would have seen articles about how you couldn't swap hard drives at all).

But what OWC is claiming is that now, instead of using pins 4,5,6 and 12 for ground - that the new iMacs and harddrives inside them are using some of those pins for communication, specifically temperature sensor.

This is outside of the SMART specification, which passes information about the harddrive over the data cable (not the power cable).

So you can swap in any harddrive you like - but if your harddrive doesn't have the functionality / firmware in it to communicate temperature information over the power cable, then the fans kick in.

At this point, I'm offhandedly wondering if this is related more to the Intel Z68 chipset / Smart Response technology somehow.

In addition, OWC is claiming that there's "Mac specific" firmware because they swapped out an identical model harddrive and ran into an issue - but (playing devil's advocate), if these are new temperature sensors involved, a firmware upgrade wouldn't cut it - the harddrive would still be missing said sensors.

I would believe OWC more if they swapped the boards on the harddrives while leaving the platter casing intact.

Someone2• 15 years ago

I reread it, and that indeed seems what they are claiming. I still think this extraordinary claim needs more evidence to be accepted as true. I think SATA has two connectors because one runs to the power supply, and the other to the main board. If that power connectors carries data, how does that data get to the main board? Is the cable split? If so, why would they do that if there already is a data connection to the cable? Or is this a way for a CPU in the PSU to power off of the drive if things go really wrong?

ars• 15 years ago

SMART hard drives have existed for more than 10 years, close to 15 years, and they have all had temperature measurement.

The temperatures measurement is very easy to get using SMART, there is absolutely no reason Apple needs to get the data in some proprietary method on extra wires.

hddtemp uses SMART to get the data, and it uses the regular SATA data cable to do it.

gnaffle• 15 years ago

I'm guessing that the fans are controlled by the PMU. The PMU runs independent of the main CPU, and I'm guessing that this approach is easier than having the PMU talk to the drives through the SATA controller, requiring drivers, OS support so that the OS SATA driver and PMU doesn't interfere with each other etc.

daimyoyo• 15 years ago

"Hard drives fail. It is not a matter of “if” but rather a matter of “when” your hard drive is going to fail."

Really? I have had computers in one form or another for nearly 20 years and I've never had a hard drive fail. Ever. Not once. From a 386 with 16MHz of processor speed and an EGA monitor, to my last Dell Latitude that's now 6 years old. Never had a problem. Do Apple hard drives fail at a disproportionately higher rate than PC's? I recently bought a MacBook Pro and I'm starting to get nervous about it.

texel• 15 years ago

If you are a heavy computer user and have never had a hard drive fail, then you are in the extreme minority. That's like living in a city for 20 years and never getting a cold.

schrototo• 15 years ago

Knocking on wood, but I've also never had a harddrive fail on me (and I personally don't know anyone who has). Though I do get a cold at least twice a year...

hoggle• 15 years ago

It seems you have been lucky.

My 80286's 20MB HD failed back in 1993, so did my 1998 IBM 3.5" 20GB Hard Disk. Maxtor 80GB in 2003. Samsung 80GB in 2004. Seagate 160GB in 2006. Western Digital 500GB in 2010.

All of these are part of my 20 or so Desktop Disks I've had had until now (pre and custom built PCs running under either some flavor of Windows, Linux or BSD)

That is only for desktop hard disks, I don't even talk about 2.5" notebook hard disks which I've lost 2 both of which were less than 3 years old Seagate Momentus 80GB and 320GB (G-Shock!).

I'm a happy Intel X-25M SSD fan boy now, I hope it will last longer than those consumer grade mechanical hard disks of yesteryears (at least until they wear out the flash memory or until my 07 MBP dies).

After I had to replace good old SCSI disks with cheap SATA disks over the last years at my different work places I've seen how great those SCSI disks were in the first place - still it is cheaper the SATA way (as long as you have at least hot-swappable RAID 6 storage or some super expensive NAS where rebuilding isn't potentially endangering your uptime).

So what I want to say is this: either you've been Gladstone Gander or I've been Donald Duck or we've been both which should be reflected in the median failover rate for mechanical (consumer grade) hard disks.

Don't get nervous about your MBP, just swap the disk for a SSD and set up time machine or a rsync script.

I wish I had made the decision to go for SSD much earlier as "I've wasted my hours."

calloc2• 15 years ago

No, Apple drives don't fail at a disproportionately higher rate. They have the exact same failure rates as the rest of the industry since they use the same parts (with minor modifications apparently).

I've had many hard drives fail. Just recently a Western Digital hard drive in my server that was the second drive in a mirror started having issues with the ball bearings making a high pitched whining noise, going over into no longer spinning up. This is by no means the first drive to do so to me. Hard drive failures happen, the more of them you have, the more likely they are to fail at one point or another.

I've had my MacBook Pro for almost 4 years now and I haven't had the hard drive fail in it at all. I wouldn't be worried, unless you abuse your laptop while it is running most likely nothing will happen. Just make sure that you have backups, TimeMachine is excellent for that.

tallanvor2• 15 years ago

I've only ever had one Mac, but it's less than 3 years old and I've had to have the drive replaced twice. --I've never had that happen on any other laptop, and I've only had one other internal drive fail in less than 5 years (the max I tend to keep them around). I have found that external drives tend to have higher failure rates - they tend to last a couple of years - but that's still better than the Mac.

Niten• 15 years ago

To play devil's advocate, this isn't out of the question.

1) Macs do tend to run hotter than PCs, and this could decrease HDD lifespan.

2) We've seen in the past that OS-specific power management settings can be detrimental to hard drives, as with this famous Linux bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/104535 Although I doubt it's actually the case, it's possible in principle for drives to wear differently under OS X than under Windows.

pahanitos• 15 years ago

Does anyone have any confirmation of the veracity of the articles?

Some conflicts... http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&h...

https://discussions.apple.com/message/15181058

ryannielsen2• 15 years ago

You can assume the worst – Apple's looking for a way to nickel and dime customers, and to lock them out of their computers! – or you can assume the pragmatic – the thermal envelope of the new iMacs is so tight, thanks to the Sandy Bridge chipset, a beefier GPU and an aggressively designed enclosure, that more careful and accurate monitoring of the HDD's internal temperature was necessary for reliability.

Why would Apple decide source more expensive and non-standard HDDs just to "lock customers in" or "force a higher BTO price"? The new iMacs' chipset and GPU are probably already more expensive than the previous generation's and Apple's almost always unwilling to bump the total cost of the machine or the cost of any BTO parts because they're guaranteed to get more backlash over those moves. Using more expensive and uncommon HDDs does nothing more than eat into their margins and complicate supply chain logistics, two things I'm sure Apple loathes.

Moving to a non-standard HDD was probably entirely motivated by engineering, not business, reasons, and most likely done to preserve the machine's thermal envelope or reduce failure rates seen on pre-production or previous generation iMacs.

montagg2• 15 years ago

Agreed. I don't think Apple really loses that much money to people who want to do DIY upgrades. This change really only inconveniences the uber-geeks among us.

However, on that note, the iMac has always been the hardest computer to upgrade. I believe it's harder to upgrade than the older Macbook Pros; I once opened up my 2006 Macbook Pro to switch out the hard drive, and I will never, ever do that again. I think it's fair to say that if you buy an iMac, you should be comfortable with buying a hermetically sealed black box that you're never going to mess with.

18pfsmt• 15 years ago

Does anyone know if this is device specific or model specific?

It would be nice if ifixit, or anyone, added the part number for WD Caviar Blue drive as they vary in price from $33-80 on Newegg.

brudgers2• 15 years ago

>"I don't think Apple really loses that much money to people who want to do DIY upgrades. This change really only inconveniences the uber-geeks among us."

It's not just DIY'ers. It's the secondary service and repair market. Now they have to buy Apple disks.

I'll suggest that it is a fundamental business strategy for Apple to seek to extract a transaction cost from any exchange involving their products. iTunes was the pivot point for their revenue model. The iPhone transferred it to hardware and scaled it for content, e.g. batteries and the AppStore. The past year has seen it rolled out widely for the Mac platform. One gets the sense that they look at the profit which companies like Macsales.com earn from upgrades as money that has been left on the table - certainly it is consistent with their recent policies regarding sales from within apps.

dvdhsu• 15 years ago

Ever since the unibody revamp, the MacBook Pro hard drives have become incredibly easy to upgrade.

For those with a removal battery, the whole process takes no more than fifteen minutes. For those with an integrated battery, it should a little longer, around thirty minutes.

nupark22• 15 years ago

However, on that note, the iMac has always been the hardest computer to upgrade.

Interestingly, the G5 iMac was an exception to this -- Apple seemed to be experimenting with DIY repair.

When the motherboard failed (and in the G5 iMac, this was 'when', not 'if'), Apple would actually send you a new motherboard, a full instruction manual, and the requisite tools to open up the case and replace it. The entire back of the computer simply levered off, granting access to components arranged for easy access.

When the Intel iMacs replaced the G5 (using an identical form factor), Apple didn't continue the DIY approach, and the machines were incredibly difficult to service at home.

A bit more info:

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1811?viewlocale=en_US

smackfu3• 15 years ago

I agree with the pragmatic answer while still saying that clearly user serviceability is not a priority for Apple, and that they can be criticized for that.

woodrow• 15 years ago

> is the freedom promised in 1984 being revoked?

This is incredibly ironic, given how expandable the original Macintosh was, as well as Steve Jobs' aversion to hardware expansion in the early days of the Mac: http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story...

akdubya• 15 years ago

Yep. To upgrade the memory on the compact macs one needed a hex driver, a soldering iron and a spare resistor. I'm still shocked my Dad let me tinker with expensive university property like that.

wiredfool5• 15 years ago

That was just the Plus. By the time the SE and Classic rolled around, all you needed was the long handled torx, but it helped if you had a case splitter.

I can't believe I soldered a resistor on one of those with a 50w monster soldering iron.

xpaulbettsx• 15 years ago

Marco Arment once again swings this as a positive thing, and that those who would want to replace a failed hard drive are just "uber-geeks":

http://www.marco.org/2011/05/12/owc-imac-hard-drive-complain...

I'm fairly certain that if iMacs had a bug where it randomly murdered kittens, Marco would try to swing it into an argument against animal overpopulation or something.

tallanvor2• 15 years ago

Given that he claims that custom drives somehow lowers Apple's costs, I have to agree with you.

blasdel• 15 years ago

When I saw that post this morning I flipped the bozo bit on him hard -- even Gruber isn't that outrageously sycophantic (or at least has the foresight not to post it).

smackfu3• 15 years ago

Especially odd considering his recent posts where he contemplates whether you really need a Mac Pro given how good a iMac is. And now just a HDD upgrade requires a Mac Pro, and that is swell.

guywithabike• 15 years ago

I'm fairly certain that if someone wrote something you didn't agree with, you would try to swing it into a bizarre straw man that you could blow away with a light breeze.

nupark22• 15 years ago

I'm not sure I understand your objection. The iMac isn't even remotely user-serviceable. Apple used hard drives that fit their design constraints. Marco's position seems perfectly sane to me.

eugenejen• 15 years ago

Well, Apple probably wants to push Thunderbolt to external hub manufacturers and storage companies as the new I/O channels. In that case, Macsales.com's custom mod external e-SATA port will be an inferior solution. (10 Gbps vs 3 Gbps).

Probably in mid 2012 we will see all new Thunderbolt based external drives and hubs for storage expansion of iMacs and MacBook Pros.

But I agree, it is still a pain in ass for DIYers to replace hard drives when the disk is broken. And Apple will sell more Apple Care for iMacs and Macbook Pros.

EDIT -

It seems Macsales.com's custom iMac e-SATA is not in product page anymore. I remember they had the service before that you can send your iMac and they will drill a hole on case and put a SATA port to the unused SATA port on the motherboard.

bestes• 15 years ago

A few points: I just replaced a HD in an iMac and saw that sensor cable. What do you think the chance is that I put it back in the right spot (on the new, different drive)?

The failure mode for a temp controlled fan should always be full on.

Macs from #1, Plus, SE all the way to the current models have been unique and required some special tools. Anyone who takes apart Mac has a full set of Torqx bits. I don't see much difference between a case splitter and a suction cup.

My guess as to the new sensor is that it is better than the ones inside the drive. Or measures what matters, like external drive temp (just guessing). Apple has had their own firmware on drives forever. This has only precluded upgrades, etc. In a few cases and usually for good reason.

So, I think this is like any advance. I hope I'm right.

jesseendahl• 15 years ago

Looks like getting hold of a second optical drive sensor and using that on your third party hard drive/SSD is the best solution. No shorting of the existing sensor necessary.

"I purchased... [an] Optical Drive Temp Sensor, and it works.. tape it to the HDD just to the upper right of the sata plug on the back of the drive.. on the black aluminum; middle of the drive.(according to seagate, thats the optimal place for a temp sensor) and voila.. the answer..

How I came to this conclusion was, I originally took the optical drive thermal sensor from my ODD and put it on the HDD thinking this should work.. well the HDD temp and fans work perfectly.. and the ODD fan is at full blast.. so I tried to contact APPLE for the replacement ODD temp sensor.. Mistake.. and then I found the Link above.. and used it as a replacement.. TADA!!!"

Source: http://www.ifixit.com/Answers/View/14068/SSD+compatibility+%...

blinkingled• 15 years ago

No matter the motive I would not buy a computer with a rotational disk drive that isn't easily replaceable. Firstly it is the most unreliable component, next I might need to use the 16TB drive that became available after 2 years of me owning my computer.

It was a piece of cake to replace my MBP's optical drive with OWC kit - I have 256Gb SSD for the OS and 500Gb for data - I totally see using most of that space and it makes a huge difference speed wise.

New iMacs run fans at full on all drives other than Apple supplied...

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