Show HN: Vim-Like Layer for Xorg and Wayland

https://cedaei.com/posts/vim-like-layer-for-xorg-wayland/

by ceda_ei • 6 years ago

148 62 6 years ago

Ianvdl4• 6 years ago

As someone who uses Vim daily, I quite like this idea. I would customise it to mimic the original Vim bindings a bit more closely where possible though, to e.g. keep Ctrl-D as page down.

I'm not sure if this would be possible, but it would be fun to have customisable per-application bindings (based on the active window, probably) in addition to the set of global bindings. I can also think of minor cases where motions would be useful, like 3x alt-tab (i.e. 3gt) to switch to a specific application.

I wonder at what point the depth of the mode-ness will become too much, if you were running this, for example, with a vi-mode bash readline.

ceda_ei5• 6 years ago

e.g. keep Ctrl-D as page down.

I tried doing the same using xdotool by binding Ctrl+F<something> to PageDown but for some reason it didn't work for some reason and I didn't investigate enough.

addcninblue• 6 years ago

I believe a possible reason is that the OP used xkb, which if I'm not mistaken is lower level than xdotool (so xdotool would not suffice)

dlkmp2• 6 years ago

I've done a similar thing at the hardware level using a QMK layer. The main benefit for me is being able to use VIM movement keys in every text input.

As I'm using a dual boot setup, it's also pretty handy to have the mapping directly embedded in the keyboard firmware.

modalkb2• 6 years ago

Care to share please?

Ianvdl4• 6 years ago

Thanks for mentioning QMK [0], it's not something I've heard of before, and it seems like a huge step up from standard keyboard firmware. As far as I can tell only a small number of manufacturers officially support it, but at least one person seems to have made some progress getting a standard cooler master keyboard to run it [1].

[0] https://qmk.fm/ [1] https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/tree/master/keyboards/bp...

secure2• 6 years ago

It’s reasonably simple to port QMK (at least partially) to a new microcontroller.

I have worked on Teensy 3.6 support for QMK, and plan to work on Teensy 4.x support as well.

least• 6 years ago

Hasu usb-usb converter will let you use nearly any keyboard with qmk.

https://www.1upkeyboards.com/shop/controllers/usb-to-usb-con...

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69169.0

samatman• 6 years ago

Drop (née Massdrop) makes a number of fairly 'normal' QMK keyboards. From smallest to largest, the Alt, Ctrl, and Shift.

Then there's Ergodox EZ, a company which makes the eponymous ortholinear split key (my daily driver), as well as a 40% keyboard called the Planck, and a new next-gen ergo keyboard called the Moonlander. These are designed from the get go to use layers, where each layer assigns its own meaning to keys, and that's where QMK gets really powerful.

There's a whole ecosystem of kits and group buys if you're looking to make a hobby out of it, but if you just want a keyboard you can program, these have you covered.

SuperPaintMan3• 6 years ago

Was thinking that the whole time I was reading this! I actually have my layout optimized for i3/Vim-controls and it's the default for GergoPlex. I used to use xmodmap hacks but I got sick of maintaining changes across/OS's, having it on the keyboard makes it so much easier. Only downside is carrying around a QMK keyboard!

Layout: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rRS_TOYuIQQ/XhRERox3moI/AAAAAAABE...

GergoPlex: https://www.gboards.ca/product/gergoplex

Legogris4• 6 years ago

Just curious, how much time would you say it took you to 1) build and make it, 2) get used to the layout?

l_t2• 6 years ago

I recently got a GergoPlex and it's so fun to be able to actually reprogram the keyboard itself.

In fact, I got so addicted to keybindings that I tweaked the chording engine to make chords QMK-layer-dependent. The ability to do "modal chords" is just great.

Anyway, thank you for making these things -- I may never have heard of QMK if it wasn't for your boards!

cassepipe• 6 years ago

Would you write about it? I am really curious.

Legogris4• 6 years ago

What I did here was starting to use a premade programmable 60% keyboard (Vortexgear Pok3r) and remapping "Caps-Lock" as modifier to make hjkl into the actual arrow keys. No software config needed.

simias• 6 years ago

I did the same thing on my Ergodox with QMK, only with emacs/readline bindings. control-M for enter, control-A for beginning of line, control-E for end of line, control-N for next line, control-H for backspace etc...

It makes using those clunky web edit boxes (such as the one I'm typing this into right now) somewhat bearable.

Getting a fancy ergonomic programmable keyboards is one of the best decisions I've made over the past few years. It's so much more comfortable in the long run.

I'm also a big fan of "space cadet shift", which makes left and right shift input ( and ) when pressed on their own. I also have a dual-function caps lock: when pressed on its own it's Escape, when chorded with an other key it's control. You can do that in software with xcape for those who want to give it a try:

    xcape -t 500 -e 'Shift_L=parenleft;Shift_R=parenright;Control_L=Escape'

You'll have to swap left control and caps lock using xmodmap or setxkbmap as well.

And for those who are curious to see what a QMK config looks like, it's fairly straightforward (this one is a WIP, there are a few problems with it, but it gives you an idea):

https://github.com/simias/qmk_firmware/blob/372b71ca90df01b5...

That's of course assuming that your board is already supported, adding support for a new board is a bit trickier and requires some embedded C know-how.

ohazi• 6 years ago

What are your thoughts on the vertical stagger on ergonomics, vs. just having the left and right side split? Does it actually help, or is it more of an aesthetic choice?

I notice carpal tunnel pain in my wrists when I tension or release the tendons in my wrist that curl my fingers to move them up and down. Moving them from side to side doesn't hurt at all, so I'm skeptical that there's anything ergonomically wrong with the normal staggered layout. Split still seems like a good idea, though.

How infuriating are regular keyboards after getting used to Ergodox?

seqizz• 6 years ago

Good idea. This could be also useful for assigning custom functionality instead of vim (e.g. window management).

Also one can switch backlights/keyboard colors depending of the keyboard mode for visual feedback.

modalkb2• 6 years ago

I just had a crazy idea based on this- (it's not going to be useful as is, mostly novel and potentially good)

You know how a desktop screen is fixed width and windows cannot be outside of the screen (at least in tiling), I want a single workspace for all windows, where they arrange non-ovrlappingly and screen would just be a view to a fixed point so I can scroll (quickly using hjkl) in 4 directions to look at other windows and even maybe select a group of windows and make them my current view.

Much more dynamic than i3, my current wm.

mgraczyk• 6 years ago

Sounds a bit like the infamous 10/GUI

http://10gui.com/video/

ceda_ei5• 6 years ago

Somewhat related: https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula. This is the same concept but with VR.

vladvasiliu• 6 years ago

I've never used AwesomeWM but from a brief reading, maybe it could do part of what you want: "maybe select a group of windows and make them my current view".

From what I understand, windows don't belong to a workspace, but a workspace is a collection of windows having a certain tag. A given window may have multiple tags, so it can belong to multiple workspaces.

lymitshn• 6 years ago

Like this,paperwm? https://github.com/paperwm/PaperWM

secure2• 6 years ago

The NEO keyboard layout (https://neo-layout.org/) which I’m using for over a decade, has a similar concept of a number of additional layers.

This is quite handy for having a bunch of special characters for programming readily available (hover over the layers on https://neo-layout.org/ to see).

For any other modal use-cases (e.g. resizing windows, changing music volume), I use i3’s modes: https://i3wm.org/docs/userguide.html#binding_modes

renke14• 6 years ago

I am also using a custom keyboard layout (basically the movement layer from the NEO layout + left alt → left ctrl, right alt → left alt, caps lock → esc). Initially it was implemented as xmodmap, then as xkb layout and finally as C program using Interception Tools [0]. I had problems with both xmodmap and xkb where it wouldn't work in certain applications; Interception tools works everywhere (even in VMs and outside of X/Wayland).

[0] https://gitlab.com/interception/linux/tools/blob/master/READ...

codethief4• 6 years ago

I came here to mention Interception Tools and you beat me to it! They really do work incredibly well! Currently I'm only using them to map my space bar to Ctrl upon holding using this[0] plugin.

[0] https://gitlab.com/interception/linux/plugins/dual-function-...

lejboua• 6 years ago

Thanks for this! I wanted to have a space that doubles as a layer key if kept pressed, and I wasn't having great success trying to do it with a custom program using the X bindings. This seems way simpler, while also more powerful.

Fnoord4• 6 years ago

I'm looking for a way to have a key press becoming a repeated key press (for example 'a' producing 'a' every 150 ms). Is that possible with this software? I'm able to do it with AutoHotKey, but I'm unable to get it to work in Wine.

renke14• 6 years ago

I am pretty sure this is possible. The program called by Interception Tools can basically do anything (including being stateful), it just reads input events, rewrites it, ignores it, or raises entirely different input events etc. You could probably move your mouse with arrow keys if you wanted to.

renke14• 6 years ago

Here is my layout for people who wonder how it is implemented.

https://gist.github.com/renke/e08a6822df0e26b314288378db9d77...

fock2• 6 years ago

Does it need root/sudo? Or only plugdev or some other "sit-in-front"-privileged group and there you go?

renke14• 6 years ago

I don't think the program itself needs elevated privileges, because it only reads from stdin and writes to stdout. I am running the interception tools as systemd service, though. I think the Intercepton Tools themselves need elevated privileges; I mean, it's kind of key logger if you think about it.

sieste• 6 years ago

In the fluxbox WM you could achieve something like this using keymodes

http://fluxbox-wiki.org/Keymodes.html

codethief4• 6 years ago

I've been thinking about doing something like this for quite a while. One question that's been bothering me is: How will I know what mode I'm in? Can I somehow change the cursor system-wide? Can I add some sort of notification to my i3bar?

EDIT: I just noticed that the article mentions this as a "bonus" at the end. Does this work reliably with i3status-rust? In case of i3bar at least there'd always be a delay coming from the low refresh rate of (in my case) 5s.

ceda_ei5• 6 years ago

In my case, the interval is set to 0.5 which has a slight delay but enough for me to not mind. I usually have a mental idea of what mode I am in at all times.

Can I somehow change the cursor system-wide?

Check the arch wiki article on Cursor themes[0]. Generally,, DEs have nice support for switching cursor themes after startup. In either case, you would need to modify `xkb_swapper.sh` to set a cursor theme whenever the mode is changed.

[0] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Cursor_themes

codethief4• 6 years ago

Oh cool, I hadn't noticed that you were actually around here on HN! Thanks so much responding!

In my case, the interval is set to 0.5

I noticed that more frequent updates of the status bar do eat away at the battery, though. :\

discreteevent• 6 years ago

I wrote a keyboard hook in C for Windows (I was using AHK but it was unreliable). Initially it was modal but I found over time that I would get caught out. So now it's not modal. I hold down capslock and then use ijkl to navigate etc. The only thing left that is modal is spacebar for select/visual mode but I still a have to hold down capslock for that (e.g. capslock down, space bar, ijkl to select text, capslock up). Also I was using hjkl but switched to ijkl to match the arrow keys. I don't use vim enough anymore to justify hjkl.

Holding down capslock turns out to not be a problem in practice. The main benefit of vim style navigation for me is not leaving the home row.

codethief4• 6 years ago

Also I was using hjkl but switched to ijkl to match the arrow keys. I don't use vim enough anymore to justify hjkl.

Same here. ijkl is so much better!

So now it's not modal. I hold down capslock and then use ijkl to navigate etc.

Hmm… maybe I should try that. Then again, I am afraid of getting the Emacs pinky all over again…

ggm• 6 years ago

Some concrete examples of using it? Did I miss the demo showing some good exemplary behaviour driven by this?

geocar• 6 years ago

Have you considered just using a (sticky) compose key and setting macros for some weird characters? That way you wouldn't have to run scripts to change modes.

rlkf• 6 years ago

I wonder if, instead of having two different layouts and changing between them, an alternative would be to put all the navigation keys at fifth level and above, and then hijack the Kanji modifier to switch to them, or maybe pretend you're a Far East keyboard and use Eisu_toggle.

kohlerm• 6 years ago

Get a keyboard with layer support, https://docs.qmk.fm/. No need for different modes ...

npmisdown• 6 years ago

I'm fan of heavy key mapping customization to boost productivity.

The most productive remapping so far which I made is to globally remap (via xkb) Left Alt + HJKL to respective arrow keys. Works in all GUI applications which rely on arrow keys for navigation, plus standard Ctrl + Shift + Left Alt + H (Left Arrow) works to select previous word in text fields (e.g. in browser).

Next one is to remap Left Ctrl to Left Shift and to press it with upper side of the palm just below pinky (not sure how this part of the hand is called correctly) instead of utilizing finger for that. Works best on mechanical keyboards without bevels.

Also I find quite useful to remap keys 5-0 to Right Shift + Q (5), W (6), E (7), R (8), D (9), F (0). I find these keys are easier to reach and type without a mistake instead of using standard 5-0 keys which you should stretch your fingers to type. For example, to type "()" I use Left Ctrl (remapped to Shift) + Right Shift + D, F which is easier to type without fingers leaving home row.

Fnoord4• 6 years ago

I use Hammerspoon and Karabiner Elements on macOS to rebind keys (including the examples you gave). There's some examples and repositories available for these applications.

On Windows, I use AutoHotKey, though mainly for gaming (be aware it can get you banned on some games though; investigate this beforehand).

On Linux, I have a bit more difficulty with all of this because:

1) There's no standard application or configuration or even desktop. As of now I mainly use Gnome, but my preference would be to use more lightweight WM/DE on some of my devices.

2) I sometimes use a Linux desktop in a VM, from macOS.

Timpy• 6 years ago

Does this get confusing when you're actually using Vim? Do you ever use Keyboard Normal Mode when you're in Vim?

ceda_ei5• 6 years ago

No, it doesn't. I use keyboard normal mode sometimes for things other than navigation, like seeking audio, etc

fock2• 6 years ago

sadly wayland means only sway. I've done some remapping as well, but don't know how to make Gnome in wayland mode (which is nice on a cramped notebook and someone has to test wayland...) read anything from a user-specified directory, so I have to edit stuff in /usr every update anew...

jolmg• 6 years ago

They're using sway/i3. I don't understand why they're doing it like that when sway/i3 already has support for modes.

They could have just done something like this in the sway/i3 config:

  mode "normal" {
    bindsym i mode "default"

    bindsym q kill
    bindsym y exec volchange -5
    bindsym u exec volchange +5
    bindsym o exec brightness -200
    bindsym p exec brightness +200
    bindsym w exec mpc prev
    bindsym e exec mpc toggle
    bindsym r exec mpc next
    ...
  }

  bindsym $mod+c mode "normal"

EDIT: I've realized their method has the benefit of working with other window managers that don't support modes or on-the-fly reconfiguration.

Show HN: Vim-Like Layer for Xorg and Wayland

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