Ask HN: How to pursue an unadvertised/nonexistent internship?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2241999

by mattdeboard • 15 years ago

21 26 15 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I live in a Midwestern state where I am approximately a college junior (I am a 31-year-old non-traditional student who is changing careers from PR to software development). For a few years now, long before I decided to go back to school, I have been teaching myself Python and its associated web frameworks, as well as a few other languages in which I've dabbled.

I am more than willing to accept intern pay -- that is, market minimum or less, or none -- for an internship opportunity where I can be surrounded by people smarter and more experienced than myself. Unfortunately, there is only one company here who does something does something I consider really interesting.

How do I approach this company about an internship? Or should I even do that? The CEO hosts local Python meetups once a month, which I have trouble getting to since I have class on the nights they're held. We have exchanged a couple of emails (Me: "Does your company host any learning opportunities for aspiring programmers?" Him: "No, not really, what kind of format would interest you?" Me: "Shadowing would be cool." Him: None) but nothing really came of it.

How do I approach a company about internship opportunities they might not advertise or, in fact, even have available? (This company is seeking a python dev right now, a job I'm sure I'm not qualified for)

isharabash• 15 years ago

Ask in person and keep on asking.

Be flexible in what you're willing to accept too, the idea is to get your foot in the door and either learn straight out, or make connections with people you can learn from.

Also make sure you're ready with the resume and everything else.

patio112• 15 years ago

A bit of free advice from a consultant: if you get asked for a proposal, write a proposal which includes includes exactly what he needs to know to say "yes" and then ask for the "yes." That doesn't quite come across in that gloss. I don't know if I'd be angling for internships, though.

Do you know what the difference between you and the typical junior Python dev is? The junior Python dev gets paid for programming Python. Seriously. Apply for the freaking job. The worst thing that happens is you get told you have a hole in your engineering skillset. The likely thing to happen is that you will discover engineers are not hired for engineering skillset, because if they were there wouldn't be so many terrible ones still on the payrolls of corporations big and small.

retroafroman• 15 years ago

This is exactly right. I ended up in an awesome internship that didn't exist until I proposed the position and me as the best candidate for that position. Think of something that they could use or would be advantageous for them and then offer to do it as an internship for them.

mattdeboard5• 15 years ago

I would have no problem applying for a junior dev position, but the position they're advertising isn't for a junior dev. But you're right on just applying (read: being more confident). I am not sure I'm quite ready to forsake pursuing my degree, however. That's probably dumb of me.

About the proposal, the resources I found with a quick search were mostly for companies seeking interns. Do you have a pointer to some resources for proposal-writing for interns? (This is a new concept to me.)

Mz4• 15 years ago

"Shadowing" is asking them to do something for you and offers nothing in return. It's a net loss for the company. You probably need to be willing to do whatever -- get coffee, stuff envelopes, sweep the floor. I have not done an internship of the sort you are wanting but did arrange an internship I needed for a college class. I went and asked. The longer I was there, the more I shaped it to what I wanted to do for them. I initially did "whatever" but as I got to know people better, opportunities came up for me to say "let me fix x for you". When that went well, they were more willing to listen to additional suggestions and work with me. It had the potential to become a self-created paid position had I not left the area when I did. It was a non-profit, so I would have had to find funding for my own position but the interest was there from their side.

mattdeboard5• 15 years ago

And when I'm there in person, what do I say? If I was qualified for a position, or it was an advertised internship, it's a well-worn dialogue on what to do and say. However, this is the first time in my life I've been passionate enough about something to be willing to ask someone what I can do to help with nothing to gain from it but knowledge. Looking for specific "talking points," I guess.

Mz4• 15 years ago

In my case, it was a requirement that I spend like 40 hours doing volunteer work at a homeless shelter or similar for a class on homelessness and public policy. The class was online through a San Francisco college but I was in Fairfield, about 45 miles away. So folks actually in SF had a list to work from to seek internships. I had to find my own if I was going to do something local. I went and asked to speak with the director and explained that I needed this for the class, when I could be there, some of the things I could offer, etc. I had to get a drug test before they would say "yes".

Since you don't need this for a class, you will need to be a little more convincing. "What color is your parachute" may be helpful in that regard. I would go talk to the guy in charge and tell him what you have told us: "I really want to do X with my life and am changing careers. Your company is the only one in the local area doing stuff I find really interesting. I would love to have the opportunity to spend time here and learn from people who are smarter and more experienced than I am. I am willing to do whatever you need done that will let me spend time here. I am willing to do so without pay if there are no current job openings for which I qualify. Is there any way you would consider letting me do that?" It might also be helpful to mention that you are aware of monthly meetups but scheduling conflicts do not allow you to attend. You should be prepared to state what times you are available and how many hours per week you can commit to this. If turned down, be very gracious about it and thank him for his time. If you do get turned down, if possible, close with "Keep me in mind if you change your mind/if something changes/whatever the appropriate remark is for how the conversation went (ie the stated reason for saying no)."

mechanical_fish• 15 years ago

With reference to patio11's comment above: Your talking point is "I want to write some code in Python for your company."

Then, if and when they turn you down for that job, you can approach the CEO at one of those local meetups and say, "Hey, I'm trying to become a better programmer; what should I study next? Here's a couple of my projects on Github so you can see the sort of things I've been working on."

You keep talking about how unqualified you are. Perhaps you are merely too shy. But if you're certain that you don't know Python well enough to write code in Python for money... learn more Python! You will have to teach yourself, of course, using books and blogs and example code from Github and Stack Overflow and semi-random Googling and surfing through your system's source code. You will have to get used to that: Web programmers are autodidacts, as they have had to be since the Web was invented, and as they will continue to be for at least another decade.

patio112• 15 years ago

There are almost certainly people that have gone from stuffing envelopes to fulfilling, renumerative careers in technology, but that has vanishingly little to recommend it as strategy. Instead, try describing shadowing as something which creates value rather than ties up a valuable employee. (Humming a few bars: say you're working with the valuable employee and will, as a deliverable for the project, create X, where X is anything from the set of "things programmers know they should make but often fail to execute on", like documentation, a repeatable build/install/test process, etc etc etc. Plus as an added bonus, after you succeed on this project, you'll have intimate knowledge of the problem domain and company practices, they'll have intimate knowledge of your capabilities and personality, and will be a slam dunk hire for them.)

Mz4• 15 years ago

FWIW: I did end up doing a lot with computers for them -- bought them a domain name, set up a paypal account, updated their website, created custom excel sheets to modernize their handling of their overwhelming paperwork (apparently the norm in not-for-profit land) etc. But, no, it wasn't a technology company. So it was a different setting and I had different goals.

mbm• 15 years ago

Get to know a professor with industry connections and demonstrate to him/her that you're smart and/or hard-working. Use that as an inroad to a programming internship. It'll take some time, but it might be your best bet if there aren't a lot of internships on the market.

o1iver• 15 years ago

I am also a university student and I just got an internship by talking to PHD students about their projects. I finally met one who was leading a super-interesting one. I asked about internships (+ bachelor thesis) and he got in touch with the company leading the project with the university, where I then applied and was just taken. It wasn't advertised, so just go and ask people with connections to the industry.

aepstein• 15 years ago

The best way to get their attention is to build something in Python that they would be interested in.

For example, do they have an API? If so, build off their API. Make a cool related service. Make a microsite. Develop a prototype of some technology/algorithm that would be useful in their business.

Forget resumes/shadowing/etc, just take the initiative to build something they will notice and love, and you'll have an instant connection.

sagacity• 15 years ago

If you take my word for it, aepstein's advice above is solid gold - very similar strategies have won me paying customers in the past.

Go for it and all the best.

n0on3• 15 years ago

Be direct, honest and keep it simple. That means, (1) be very clear on your abilities and expectations, (2) don't make them loose time, and (3) if you want to know whether they are looking for / would be interested in someone like you for an internship or not, just ask.

jamii• 15 years ago

I've been looking around for (post-grad) internships for the last few weeks. The most successful tactic so far has been to just email and ask directly. Make sure to link to some existing projects that you can show off so they know you won't just be dead weight. Show that you have actually researched the company and are interested in what they do. I've had a few interviews already with this sort of thing:

  > Person X, I saw your job posting on HN and wonder if you also accept interns?
  >
  > I have professional experience with python, erlang and ocaml and have
  > previously worked in a startup environment. I have
  > little practical experience in machine learning or data mining but I
  > do have some classroom learning as well as a solid background in math.
  >
  > I have a resume and portfolio online (
  > http://scattered-thoughts.net/all?jid=2&tag=about ). A few of the
  > smaller projects in there are vaguely relevant to Company X - a personal
  > job hunting agent (
  > http://scattered-thoughts.net/one/1274/311469/330868 ) and an email
  > chat bot for 419 baiting (
  > http://scattered-thoughts.net/one/1274/311469/329424 ).
  >
  > I am hoping to start a phd in September so I cannot accept permanent
  > positions at the moment. I am not a US citizen but I am eligible for a
  > J1 visa and able to move to SF without financial assistance.
  >
  > Thanks
  >
  > Jamie

Edit: Fixed the formatting

gregpilling• 15 years ago

I have had two interns in the past. Both of the positions came about because the person approached me and told me what they wanted to do. I didn't have to think too much about their proposal - they had it figured out for me. So I said yes.

Lmclean• 15 years ago

I'm in a similar vessel over here in Scotland/UK 30yr old, CS undergrad, wife/daughter etc. I've no experience other than the 1.5yrs coding from University and mostly in Java & php. Around 3 weeks ago I used linkedin to target companies in and around Edinburgh that I thought I could work in, loosely based on product/location but not tech stack. I also used google finance and used different phrases to find larger companies. I contacted managers and HR staff via unsolicited email with my CV and academic transcript.

I've had 3 interviews so far and a further 1 next week with. I've had 1 offer of p/t during term and f/t in the summer.

All 3 companies don't let interns loose on their codebase, understandable tbh. They look at setting a side project, within their 'product roadmap', to develop a proof of concept. Sometimes this ends up not being useful, but the company can keep their current dev team on more pressing issues while undertaking 'research'. Might be worth approaching with this tangent?

I'm assuming that an internship is the same over here as in your locale; a summer job? If python is your chosen path great but don't let it stand in the way of applying to different companies. All 3 of the companies I've interviewed with use .Net and MSoft stacks, of which I have no experience. I found most of the interviewers had been focused on assessing my communication skills instead of technical prowess. Learning another language can't be a bad thing?

Good Luck!

mattdeboard5• 15 years ago

Heartily agree on all counts. Learning new languages I am definitely not opposed to. I don't have a "pet stack." I just want professional experience for when I move to more, ahem, lucrative locales.

Thanks for responding.

petervandijck• 15 years ago

1. Write something they'll love. Something using their API or something. Something simple is ok, but something that shows that you'll provide value.

2. Then apply for an unadvertised junior Python job, not an internship and show them what you wrote.

krschultz• 15 years ago

When I was a sophomore in college, I knew I wanted to get into a startup as an intern. (I think there is a pg essay somewhere giving that advice, I followed it). I knew as a mechanical engineer with some software development experience I didn't want to be in one of the web 2.0 startups. I posted an Ask HN question about how to find startups in Manhattan (I lived in New Jersey, about 1.5 hour commute to manhattan each way). HNers posted two groups (NYTech Meetup, and TechNY?, forget the second one off teh top of my head). I sent an email out to those two groups basically saying, here is my resume, I would love to intern for a startup company, preferably one that does hardware, does anyone have any tips.

One of the members on the 2nd board told me about Bug Labs, and gave me the contact email for one of the guys there. I then went through about a 4 week process of playing phone and email tag. I never gave up. I'd get in touch about every 3-5 days and push for an interview. I finally got one, I think just so they'd shut me up. They really had no need/use/idea of what to do with an intern. But I think they knew I wanted it badly enough that it was worth taking a chance on me.

I ended up staying there for the rest of college doing 2 summer and 2 winter internships, and it was definitely the best experience/job I've ever had.

My suggestion is: figure out exactly what you want to do, find a contact in the company (for me it was HR not CEO) and just lay it out really clearly why you want to work for them and what you will do. For me I made it clear that I would pick up all the low priority tasks and free up the other engineers to do other things. That meant at first writing a lot of the manuals, testing, and writing tutorials. It was probably less programming than some other internships, but I was surrounded by some of the smartest people I've ever met, and it was a great place to work.

So just don't give up on contacting them, people in startups are busy, and make sure you make it clear what value you are going to bring to them becuase startups don't have the time or money to keep on interns that don't pull their weight.

maxbrown• 15 years ago

My advice would be to be very clear in your writing (e-mail exchange, cover letter) what the value is that you're going to bring the company. In this case, it seems like you want to sell yourself as a junior dev - someone who can do the coding that is busywork for the other devs - and you really want to stress that you'll be low maintenance for them.

If you can prove that you bring more value than you'll take, they should give you the internship.

andrewfurman• 15 years ago

I'm also a college junior and have been looking to gain development experience. I recently just had success emailing a startup in my area using their jobs@startup.com address. I listed some of my skills, gave a link to a project that I did, and told them why I was passionate about what they were doing. The CEO ended up emailing me back the same day.

If anyone else is in this position I'd recommend trying this first since it's very good way to express interest in a possible job opportunity with a company.

Ask HN: How to pursue an unadvertised/nonexistent internship?

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