Boeing Backs Simulator Training for 737 Max Pilots in Reversal

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-07/boeing-reverses-itself-to-back-simulator-training-for-max-pilots

by JumpCrisscross • 7 years ago

67 102 7 years ago

bloomberg.com

PaulHoule• 7 years ago

Had Boeing done this six months ago the MAX might be in the air right now.

nsxwolf• 7 years ago

Had they done it even before that a lot of people might still be alive.

Someone1234• 7 years ago

I don't believe that's accurate. The 737 Max failed re-certification multiple times with additional fixes being needed (the most recent of which was in the last week[0], with the wire harness issue).

[0] https://simpleflying.com/737-max-wiring-scrutiny/

qaq2• 7 years ago

How much does it cost per pilot is it really that bad?

selectodude• 7 years ago

It's the time and pilot logistics more than the price. Pilots can't do this sort of stuff at their house, they need to fly somewhere and spend four hours or more in a simulator. Not only is it a pain for everybody involved, it means that you don't have that particular pilot for that entire day. And then furthermore you can only use that particular pilot to fly the MAX moving forward. The whole point of maintaining a type rating is that all of your pilots can fly all of those planes, regardless of the particular version of the model.

dpe82• 7 years ago

Rather the other way around - the MAX can only be flown by the subset of 737 pilots who have had the training. In practice that will mean for Southwest to maintain the efficiencies they achieve through standardization they'll need to ensure all of their pilots receive the additional training.

berkut• 7 years ago

A more problematic issue is likely that it sounds like there are only 34 MAX simulators available worldwide currently.

sleepytimetea• 7 years ago

Ah...even assuming they could do 6 sessions in every 24 hours (and it took only one session per pilot), thats going to take a really long time to get the required pilot crews certified.

CodeSheikh• 7 years ago

What difference does it make when the actual hardware is still flawed? I still refuse to fly in 737 MAX and its variants. Boeing can convince AA and Southwest pilots to give them vote of confidence but consumers are not stupid.

pageandrew• 7 years ago

If pilots and pilot unions are satisfied with the results, I'm satisfied with the results. There's no-one more safety conscious in the aviation industry than pilots, since they're responsible for the souls on board their aircraft, including their own.

r00fus2• 7 years ago

They should be forced to add the 3-sensor config on the plane and have that supported by the MCAS for all planes.

A single sensor failing and causing unlimited automatic shifts in pitch is a nightmare I will not fly on.

mrtksn9• 7 years ago

Their jobs are on the line too which complicates things. I don't recall many pilots expressing distrust towards Boineng and FAA, the narrative always was "Don't worry, the issue is handled by professionals, these planes are safe". The planes turned out not to be safe.

freepor3• 7 years ago

But pilots are subject to Dunning Kruger. Most probably think they could figure out how to handle MCAS and give the OK but in reality it might be over optimistic.

stefan_• 7 years ago

Consumers are not stupid? Most of them (are) drive(n) to the airport in cars. That is the most dangerous part of the whole journey.

FartyMcFarter• 7 years ago

It is still stupid to get into a plane that is vastly less safe than others for no good reason.

mrtksn9• 7 years ago

I always suspected that this claim is based on somewhat dishonest play with statistics but never seen anybody conveying the message digging deeper.

Safer in what regard?

fred_is_fred• 7 years ago

The difference here is that Subaru didn't strap a rocket engine to the back of my Forrester, tell me I didn't need extra training to use it, and then have a sensor that automatically steered me into a wall when it engaged.

tus88• 7 years ago

Isn't the MAX still grounded?

rst• 7 years ago

It is. The news is that Boeing has conceded that retraining pilots will be required to get it flying again.

alkonaut6• 7 years ago

If the hardware is fixed (redundant sensors where necessary etc., but obviously not “smaller engines”) and the software is fixed, and training is fixed so pilots can handle the situations that can occur, and authorities believe the plane is safe - then I believe the plane is safe. It’s at least then safe enough that I wouldn’t pay hundreds of dollars to avoid it. Would I prefer an A320neo departing from the next gate at the same price? Sure.

SilasX• 7 years ago

and authorities believe the plane is safe

After the FAA let themselves get hoodwinked by Boeing, this means a lot less than it used to, and it will take time to restore a reputation for being a legit independent check.

freepor3• 7 years ago

I’ll let you be the guy on the plane wondering why he made the choices he did as the ground zooms in. I’ll fly a different plane or not fly.

wyldfire• 7 years ago

What difference does it make when the actual hardware is still flawed?

Pilots often know a great deal about the general design qualities of the planes they fly. Defective parts happen, parts wear down, sensors break, etc. When a sensor or mechanism breaks, pilots recognize the symptom and override the feature that uses the broken part.

737 MAX tries to bolt the big engine on the little plane (old design), with minimal changes. This plane may not be necessarily defective on its own, the MCAS was created to compensate. But it will activate incorrectly with a defective sensor. MCAS was designed not be overridable (or optionally so, if you shell out for it?). Why not put in an override? Because Southwest offered Boeing a financial incentive bonus if they provided 737 MAX with minimal/no new training requirement. If the plane has a new indicator light and a new switch to override a feature, you have to train pilots on how and when to do so. Instead, Boeing decided to "just" rely on MCAS.

Boeing can convince AA and Southwest pilots to give them vote of confidence

Pilots have the most to lose, their trust should be valuable.

GiorgioG• 7 years ago

Toooooo...late!

dang• 7 years ago

Please don't post unsubstantive comments here.

chmaynard2• 7 years ago

"Southwest Airlines Co., the largest 737 Max customer, said in a statement before Boeing’s announcement that it was confident that computer-based training would have been sufficient to supplement its existing training program."

Translation: Safety is not our highest priority. It's up there, but profitability is higher.

ralph842• 7 years ago

For any airline sim time is a finite resource. They have to choose what to focus on. They can't have every pilot experience every possible failure in the sim.

jnwatson• 7 years ago

Can’t tell if serious...

That’s exactly what I would hope pilots experience.

hurricanetc• 7 years ago

It really isn’t an issue that requires hours in a simulator.

chmaynard2• 7 years ago

Southwest management has a history of making gratuitous statements. For example, in March 2019 before the 737 MAX was grounded:

"Because MCAS is only designed to operate in rare conditions while pilots are manually flying, pilots should never see the system in operation."

dboreham• 7 years ago

Another attempt to put the genie back in the bottle..

throw7• 7 years ago

"some failed to follow the company’s checklists"

great. that's confidence inspiring.

Merrill• 7 years ago

Will this test whether pilots have the upper-body strength necessary to manually turn the cockpit trim wheels considering the size and aerodynamic forces for this large an aircraft?

Unless there has been some change other than to MCAS, the manual trim wheels are still the only option to correct runaway horizontal stabilizers.

michaelcampbell• 7 years ago

Surely it is possible to provide them with a mechanism that gives enough mechanical advantage.

I have a vision of... dissimilar sized gears, or something...

fgonzag2• 7 years ago

I'm imagining the pressure inside sealed tubes filled with liquid could be exploited to provide a force multiplier

lmilcin• 7 years ago

You mean an airplane of a different design that would need to be separately certified?

kayfox• 7 years ago

Like electric motors controlled by the pilots?

tzs2• 7 years ago

My understanding is that you only get the large forces when you have a large amount of trim and are going fast. On 737's without MCAS, the only way runaway trim would get anywhere near that would be if the pilots ignored it for a long time.

What MCAS added was that it could keep reactivating. You got what looked like runaway trim, stopped it, and a few seconds later MCAS would kick in again. Each cycle of this could end up accumulating net trim until you got into the high force region and could no longer manually turn the trim wheels.

mannykannot• 7 years ago

The manual trim wheels are not necessarily the only option in that case. If the runaway is due to faulty MCAS commands, the electric trim (operated by the yoke switches) is probably still functional, so I believe it is possible that the procedures for handling MCAS failure have been modified, now that Boeing is no longer pretending that MCAS makes no difference.

In addition, I believe MCAS itself has been modified. I have not seen a clear description of the changes, but they might include additional redundancy, rejection of improbable data, warnings that there are these problems, warnings whenever MCAS activates, restrictions on how much it can change the trim, and a cutout switch for MCAS that keeps the electric trim functioning.

In the worst case, manual retrimming with the wheels is still the last resort. I have seen it suggested, by sources generally considered reliable, that (prior to the Max) the need for the manual trim has been so rare that its use is not part of simulator training for any 737. I do not know if that will change, but if so, it would seem to raise the question of whether pilots of earlier variants also need additional training in its use (I would guess that it is most difficult on the largest and heaviest variants.)

LyalinDotCom• 7 years ago

I'd reverse my decision too, if you know I made a product that I knew could kill people due to some poor design in key systems and then it killed hundreds of people.

tim333• 7 years ago

And then they tried to say "it's ok really, we'll just change the software" but were still grounded months later. It's taken a lot of prodding.

neonate• 7 years ago

https://outline.com/durb8c

Boeing Backs Simulator Training for 737 Max Pilots in Reversal

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