Whatever happened to the noble art of the manly weep?

https://aeon.co/essays/whatever-happened-to-the-noble-art-of-the-manly-weep

by elbear • 7 years ago

79 111 7 years ago

aeon.co

rl33• 7 years ago

I cry less and less as I age:

Teens? All the time. Perhaps monthly or even weekly at times.

20s? Less so, but more intensely. Perhaps every six months on average.

30s? Only twice in two years, and I'm a 32-year-old male now.

Those times were basically weeping, and I'd thought I'd hit rock bottom in a mental health/depression context. Maybe I had, but life got much, much worse after that. The interesting thing however, is that somewhere along the line I lost the ability to cry. I'd want to cry, but I couldn't anymore.

Haven't been able to for over a year now. It's like when you hit what you think is the bottom, you drop through to the basement. I hesitate to say it's an unfeeling basement—if anything it's more extreme feelings of despair—but it's certainly one where for whatever reason, crying no longer exists.

When things were really bad recently, I'd look in a mirror and just see this tearless dry laugh or heave of despair. Wanted to cry, but it's like the emotional pain or stress or anxiety was too high to allow it.

My best friend and I saw Joker during the midst of all this, and then we went home to make dinner after. It disturbed him a little when I nailed emulating the laugh without even trying, the first time. Usually I'm the one that can't do voices to save my life, and he's the one who can do anything. He couldn't do the Joker laugh no matter how much he tried.

My theory is I had already experienced the aforementioned feeling in the mirror. I unwittingly had practice. You have to be either a really good actor, or seriously hurting to emulate that laugh correctly. It's a laugh because the tears are dry for some reason.

That said, I'm sure despair can go far deeper still, and I really hope to never experience that.

It could be that crying is like a muscle. Perhaps it's a developed emotional mechanism that—when used appropriately—is beneficial to emotional well-being. However, like any muscle it can atrophy if it isn't used frequently enough, or lacks in sufficient nutrition.

Maybe crying can only happen when conditions are right. If things get too bad, or you're too worn down, you lose the ability to do so.

Perhaps crying doesn't happen because depression in combination with stress or anxiety are the primary reason for the despair. I'd probably cry immediately for the death of a loved one, for example.

Whatever the case, that's my take on it. Everyone's different and likely has their own reasons why they cry or don't cry. As the article points out, societal factors of course play an outsized role as well.

Disclaimer: Wrote this simply for the exercise of it, to explore the topic. Not a plea for help or anything, I'm fine. Joker was a flawed yet excellent film that explored some serious mental health topics, and I dislike the notion that it somehow had a violent or anarchic message. Quite obviously the contrary in my opinion.

elbear3• 7 years ago

The article says that crying has therapeutic purposes. I assume it's a purification process, something meant to release the burden. If that's true, then we as men have to suffer, because cultural norms prevent us from exercising this process.

lodi• 7 years ago

I'm 34, male. I feel like I just feel less as I age, both positive and negative. No crying, less anger, but also less giddy joy, less vivid imagination. When I was a child or teenager I could read a book and be the character. Now I'm just reading a book.

rl33• 7 years ago

I've noticed something similar. I used to be able to get into games, like become completely immersed such that it was a magical experience.

These days, no way. I'm not sure why it is, but I recall reading a few threads where people our age lament the same thing happening to them.

In my case, I suspect it may be rooted in anxiety, guilt for fear of wasting time not being productive.

Yet, illogically I'll end up hooked on certain competitive multiplayer games and waste the time just the same. I suspect certain games play into anxious behavior more, especially games with a short match format.

The last single player game I truly enjoyed in a magical sense, I had to block out the time for it ahead of time, like it was a task to complete. That seemed to help a lot with enjoyment strangely enough.

jsonne2• 7 years ago

I felt this right up until I have a kid. I'm like a mopey teenager again. Movies and tv regularly make me tear up etc. I feel the overwhelming rush and excitement I used to get from travel or goal achievement all over. I think the phenomenon that you're describing is basically we get used to the way things are so the emotional highs and lows are sort of expected. When we're young everything is new. It takes a big change and breaking your pattern to get out of that.

hef198982• 7 years ago

That really resonates withe, too. Aged 36 now. Last time I really cried was when my grandpa died 12 years ago. Since then I lost my remaining grandparents as well. Luckily all of them lived beyond ot around 90. But I just didn't cry. Same when my best friend decided to leave for the US for good. Sad, yes. Crying, nope, even when I tried.

Still working on the anger / frustration front, so. I'd really love to feel even less of that. But than I am a rather analytical type, so not sure if it is an age thing.

arethuza• 7 years ago

"Maybe crying can only happen when conditions are right."

Having kids seem to throw a switch in my brain that made me get really upset at the idea of harm being done to children, any children.

Vrondi• 7 years ago

Lack of affect can be a sign of depression or past trauma. Supressing emotional reactions to avoid triggering other negative effects of these things can become ingrained.

To put it another way: You have become comfortably numb.

rl33• 7 years ago

To put it another way: You have become comfortably numb.

Ah, I'd say it was anything but comfortable.

celticmusic• 7 years ago

I honestly think the new Joker movie is easily the best batman movie I've ever watched.

That ending scene was pure fucking genius. It transformed that character for me. That crazy was believable, and I can't wait to see what they do next.

Clubber2• 7 years ago

Life is suffering. We cry because someone convinced us it's not. Fairy tales are just that. Read deep into history for perspective.

We're at the 100th anniversary of the Spanish Flu that happened right after WWI. If we were living 100 years ago, we still have Prohibition, mass bank failures, the Great Depression and WWII to look forward to before mid-century.

Be thankful you aren't in a trench.

ptah• 7 years ago

most of those problems were self-inflicted

Clubber2• 7 years ago

most of those problems were self-inflicted

Sure, it's the fault of the 18 year old draftee getting shelled in a trench for 4 straight days. It's the fault of the farmer who lost his life savings because a bank shut down. It's the fault of the young factory worker that Hitler decided to invade Poland. Self inflicted by whom exactly? Maybe you should reevaluate that statement.

nickthegreek• 7 years ago

I was listening to the NYT Daily podcast yesterday and they were talking about the Soleimani funeral and how Khamenei voice cracked and openly cried while delivering a prayer. I thought that was pretty amazing and rare for a world leader, especially a strong man type.

friedegg• 7 years ago

I found out my mom died while I was at work, age 37, after a short illness (I was going to see her the next week), and although I generally kept it together that day, at one point, while talking to one of my staff on the phone, I just completely lost it. I think I cried in a way I hadn't ever before (maybe I've had a fortunate life). What was oddest to me was that I couldn't control it at all, but I was still able to think and even had a conversation with them over Slack while this was happening.

tartoran3• 7 years ago

I'm sorry for your loss. I still remember when my dad died too, I was about 21 at the time and got a phone call that my dad was taken by an ambulance. I was at work and jumped into a cab, I arrived at the ER and they would not let me see him directly, told me they need to talk to me and my family in a separate room. They tried to cushion it but broke it to us eventually. That uncontrollable sobbing in front of the hospital, some strangers were hugging and trying to console me, feels like a natural response to personal tragedy. I am in my 40s and rarely cry but if I could I'd do, it's such a cathartic feeling.

rofo1• 7 years ago

The last two times that I've cried were both at a funeral of close family members. That was 2 years and ~10 years ago, I believe. I don't remember any other instances (maybe when I was a little kid, but I don't remember). When I say 'cried', I mean.. there were tears on my face. I wasn't screaming and crying manically etc.

Why cry, anyway? Unless someone dies or is extremely ill, everything else seems tolerable to me.

As someone that have extensively studied history and evolutionary biology, I know exactly how good life is for me (and for many people, really). There's absolutely no reason to cry or feel sad about anything, especially things beyond my control.

Right now, we are connected through an online forum from our homes. It's just amazing! We got transportation, we can visit other countries, we have freedom (of some sort), some of us are in great physical shape, financially free, etc., we got running water, we got all possible foods from each corner of the world, we got infinite entertainment, etc. etc.

I don't want to offend anyone, but when I see a person that's not satisfied based on these things alone (sanitary, water, food, not that many active wars), that's a person that has no idea about the history of our species. This is life on the easiest mode ever recorded. Cherish it.

SolaceQuantum• 7 years ago

TBH I'm super happy to live in a world where someone is crying based on things unrelated to basic survival. I want to actively work to a world where everyone's lowest low point of life is something I would consider just a minor inconvenience.

NickM3• 7 years ago

It's sad to me that the social discourse on gender has become so combative. I think many people on all sides of the debate feel like feminism is a zero-sum movement, where the way to raise women up is to tear men down.

In practice, I feel like gender inequality can hurt both men and women in different ways. More gender equality allows everyone more freedom to choose their own path in life and express their true selves without being forced into a set of stereotypical molds.

Zelphyr2• 7 years ago

I'm curious what about that piece you thought was combative? My reading of it simply points out that women cry more than men in this day and age. To me, it would be stating the obvious were it not for the contrast to the ratios in past ages but, still, not really combative or anti-feminist.

NickM3• 7 years ago

I didn’t think this particular piece was combative at all; I was just commenting more generally on the state of society. I actually thought this piece gave a really good supporting example of the point I was trying to make in my comment.

rjkennedy98• 7 years ago

Its not so much as zero-sum but essentially schizophrenic.

On one side we have a culture of extreme sexual liberation, with the media, hookup culture, and the porn industry, and on the other side we have the yes-means-yes, firings for touching a women's back (Garrison Keillor), special legal proceedings for sexual assault accusers, ect.

How is anyone supposed to navigate a culture as complex as this?

ameister142• 7 years ago

Just want to point out that this is a misuse of the word schizophrenic; if you are going to link extreme swings to a psychological disorder, the one you're likely looking for is bipolar. Simplifying it, schizophrenia is when you see and hear things that aren't there.

minikites3• 7 years ago

It's actually pretty easy: do you have consent from the other person for your actions affecting them? That's really all there is to it.

majormajor• 7 years ago

There's a wide gap between hooking up with someone who you were messaging on Tinder and touching people at work...

Porn and other media content are even more obviuously not real...

amyjess• 7 years ago

The key word here is "consent".

Sex is fine. Hell, sex is great! Just don't do it with someone who doesn't want to do it with you.

bsanr22• 7 years ago

I don't know how related this is to the article, but your point is true. As an example: it's been posited that a portion of the gender wage gap is due to the average height difference between men and women. Why? Because there's also a "height wage gap" between tall and short men, to the tune of thousands of dollars a year comparing either side of 1SD from the the mean. By not taking wage gaps seriously (because they're largely spoken of in terms of gender and race), short men are robbing themselves of a payday, and tall men lose out on the social stability that more equitable pay would bring.

Inequity doesn't just affect any particular group; its mere existence changes the way we think about what's fair and tolerable.

bluntfang3• 7 years ago

Is it possible that the heigh wage gap exists due to larger people requiring more resources to exist? It costs extra money for a tall person to get the required calories. It costs extra money for tall people to be comfortable on airlines.

I'm not saying this to be true, but it's a fact that larger people require more resources, especially in a globalizing environment where resources are created for the average human and outliers are having a tougher time just existing?

I don't expect anyone to really take this seriously, and I don't want to equate this to the struggle of being non-cis-white-male.

cookieswumchorr• 7 years ago

that's an interesting thing. Other than perception, could it be a social strata thing? Kids who's parents are better off get a healthier diet (or, in poor places, just more food). This affects how they grow

scarmig4• 7 years ago

It'd be lovely to address the height wage gap, but if the "Right" mocks the idea that short men and tall men should get paid equally, the "Left" gets angry at even the hint that there are other axes of oppression than gender and race. Try dropping into a feminist subreddit and float the theory that the height wage gap has a meaningful amount of explanatory power.

minikites3• 7 years ago

People who misunderstand feminism tend not to realize or understand all of the ways patriarchy hurts men (this article showing a prime example).

jayko• 7 years ago

In theory.. But in practice, when men are trying to acquire more resources for other marginalised men e.g shelters for male victims of domestic abuse, who is lobbying against them? Feminists.

IfOnlyYouKnew3• 7 years ago

As a contrast, I am continually baffled by people that feel threatened by feminism (or anti-racism etc.).

It's bloody obviously that we don't live in a zero-sum regime, what with productivity and living standards continually rising for hundreds of years with no corresponding rise of poverty elsewhere.

I've been to quite a few feminist protests because my partner works at an NGO, and not once was I treated badly or accused of anything, even though I am often one of few men among many women.

It's probably a specific mindset, where you do see one group of people with responsibility, but do not extend that to guilt of any individual (unless they give reason). This way of thinking, which probably comes natural to a German like me, seems to be alien to those men opposing feminism.

NickM3• 7 years ago

It seems like we generally agree. I am a man and I do consider myself a feminist. My intent was not an all to criticize feminism, but rather to lament how much of an “us vs them” issue that feminism has become for many feminists and many non-feminists alike.

hner1720• 7 years ago

I am continually baffled by people that feel threatened by feminism I was just having a conversation last night about this exact topic with my best friend. We are both very progressive, and other topics we talked about were the mounting need for UBI, higher education reform, The problems with our current welfare model and a need for a massive pay down on Infrastructure. All the same I feel the need for a fresh account to say this, and that shows a problem with the movement right away. So, in the spirit of open discourse, let me try to enlighten you as to why people feel this way, at least in my experience. I have no citations as I’m mostly reiterating the sentiments I’ve gathered from others.

I would say that the fear of feminism makes way more sense if you slide down the income ladder. If you are a straight male who works a job near the poverty line, feminism seems like it’s already handed out a big advantage to your female peers. If you are a poor women, you have substantially more viable options to increase your lot in life and generally a lot more support. The big winners of our current “patriarchy” are only rich men, and it seems like feminism only enhances the advantages they have. Women get a lot of benefits from being on the receiving end of the courtship game, and yet feminism somehow frames that reality as a negative(I get “harassed” by men wolf-whistling at me in the street).

Examples of unspoken advantages of women/grievances of men at this income bracket:

women seem to be able to find work much more easily than men, and they generally seem to be given more leeway in general. This seems a second order effect of men being demonized by many groups and because feminism’s fight for sexual liberation of women has resulted in many less women being reserved with who they sleep with. The result is that ethics be damned, male bosses want to hire females more. But because of the sexual dynamic of women seeking a provider and the social demonization of men/tribalization of women, women bosses have either no preference or prefer women also.

it’s no secret that more women are graduating from college than men and that primary/secondary education is better suited for females, and yet it feels like things are just continuing to favor women more and more.

Women just get a lot more attention in general, and as a result tend to have better self esteem. People frequently tend to stick up for women and trample men. As a result, females’ egos on average seem to be much more inflated, making dating very difficult for low income men who generally receive little to no encouragement and most attention they get is negative. Meanwhile men suffer in the shadows with high rates of suicide and depression, and US society would rather focus on taking away guns than making people not want to kill themselves or others.

The biggest irony is that sex and having an SO are pretty well known to be a fairly common part of living a happy, fulfilling life. And yet when men complain about their inability to successfully court women, they are typically lambasted and called names. Hell “nice guy” is basically a pejorative now. This further drives home the feeling that society really doesn’t care about men. The incel community didn’t used to be anywhere as toxic as it is now, and it seems it was largely driven there by bullying.

While we are talking about bullying, men are almost always expected to be able to deal with bullies alone(unlike women who are typically given attention and empathy about bullies), and there is a pretty strong dynamic of females wanting the attention/courting of bullies. Feminism has fought hard for men to realign their expectations about women, yet there seems to be nothing done at all to change women’s expectations of men.If anything Hollywood and pop culture is full of roided up men with objectively unnatural physiques who live unattainable lifestyles and ridiculously wealthy bad boys who seem to make a sport of unethical behavior.

Women are, generally speaking, the ones who call the shots in a relationship if you are poor. Wealth as a proxy for ability to give care/attention drives this. If you are a low earning male, you are seemingly much more likely relative to a women of the same income to be subject to a lot of unsavory behavior from females, partially because women who are emotionally stable are typically shooting for someone who brings home the bacon, and partially because women perceive the weakness of your position and use it against you. the latter happens to both men and women, but generally speaking there are no social brakes on women abusers like their are on men, who are truly demonized for perceived abuse. I think this problem is hidden to a lot of more wealthy feminists because of the perception that wealthy men(or the people they are courting) are portrayed to be shitty, see pop culture.

Women can essentially decide unilaterally to have kids, and then they get support from the government. They get a chance to raise someone to take care of them, and all of the psychological benefits of Child-care. Meanwhile, if you are subject to abuse as a male you have virtually no support network and will find even getting people to side with you difficult.

Feminism targets the social problems observed fairly high up the income/privilege ladder, and seems to be against making any kind of concessions.

I think good places to start trying to tackle these problems would be for feminists to spend much more effort demonizing the portrayal of unnatural, anti-social men in the media. I think a $1000/month UBI would make the biggest immediate impact, as men almost certainly wouldn’t feel like they were getting shafted by society so badly, and women might not be so preoccupied with finding a provider. Probably most controversial and unrealistic, I think that to pair with Planned Parenthood we should have public gyms that also facilitate the supervised use of steroids. Having sex constantly without pregnancy is no more natural than benching 600+ pounds, both are, outside of rare cases, the result of exogenous sex hormones, yet we hand out estrogen to women to fulfill the sexual fantasies of men, but make it illegal (unless you have a bunch of money) for men to get their sexhormones to match women’s sexual expectations.

theFeller00• 7 years ago

I haven't cried in a decade. Since I attended the last family funeral. Before that, it was probably another decade. What are feelings.

sfgweilr4f2• 7 years ago

The decode of sad feelings into binary is 10101011111101000101010101000000001011111112

sfgweilr4f2• 7 years ago

which is a shame since 2 definitely makes most logic sad.

throw_20200107• 7 years ago

Strange timing of this article.. https://apnews.com/14792cc1d7f73ffec8f8c425b73b44fb

matwood• 7 years ago

I've never seen a problem with crying, although I don't cry easily. Stub my toe? No reason to cry. I had to suddenly euthanize one of my dogs on new years eve and I cried like a baby.

One thing I have noticed though is that I can cry about a situation and then I'm good to go. My wife on the other hand will cry off and on for days. Maybe the no crying thing came out of the typical need to get things done after whatever crying situation occurred?

welly• 7 years ago

I've cried occasionally in recent years through laughter but never through sorrow. Mid 40s now but I have few recollections of crying through sorrow since I was a child - all brought on either by the breakup of a relationship or the death of a grandparent.

I suspect I'd probably keep my crying to myself if I had a reason to, which seems to go against the norm on the internet. On reddit in particular, people can't seemingly wait to announce their tears over one thing or another. It's like a competition as to who is the most emotional. Part of me thinks "Good on you, I wish I was that emotional", the other part of me thinks they're crying out for attention.

dsfyu404ed• 7 years ago

Agreed. I'm not very emotional. I've nearly cried once in my adult life and that was at a funeral for someone close. I don't think I'm missing much but I'm sure people will contend I don't know what I'm missing, oh well.

Reddit is a very bad place to go for a picture resembling "reality for normal people". The format of the website is very conducive to people trying to one-up each other with their conformance to whatever things are popular at the time and that gets divorced from reality really quickly.

sebastianconcpt• 7 years ago

This is no place to discuss masculinity.

Zelphyr2• 7 years ago

I've been saying for awhile that we need to work against the stigma of crying. Sure, sobbing because your idea isn't chosen at the office probably isn't going to get you anywhere but that's not what I'm talking about. When we're sad, we should allow ourselves and each other the space to be sad and if that means crying then we should do so.

Replace "crying" with "pooping" and see how senseless the stigma becomes. You don't need to do it in public but only bad things happen when you try to prevent it. It's a perfectly normal physiological process.

What makes the stigma even more odd is that we accept it when we see a strong male character crying in a movie or on TV. On the surface it was absurd when Tom Hanks was crying over losing "Wilson" yet we understood it, and related to it. In his isolation-induced mental state, he had lost a loved one. There was no shame in that. Would we think the same if our co-worker choked up when describing how his cat had just died?

screye3• 7 years ago

It’s time to open the floodgates. Time for men to give up emulating the stone-faced heroes of action movies and be more like the emotive heroes of Homer, like the weeping kings, saints and statesmen of thousands of years of human history.

I fully support the premise, but it clearly ignores the reality. A man has to first be convinced that the environment around him will not reject him for crying, before expecting him to be vulnerable in such an unfamiliar way.

Will a crying man be deemed as someone unsuitable for being the emotional pillar in a relationship ?

Will a crying man be seen as someone who can't deal with crisis ?

Will a crying man be seen to be a child ?

No matter how much we tell someone it is alright, they won't believe it to be true until the environment shows it to be so. People talk about toxic masculinity as though it is a problem created only by men. But, the idea of it pervades throughout society. Affecting children, women and men alike. Men can't be the only ones battling it.

A comment pointed towards Khamenei crying at Soleimani's funeral as a sign towards encouraging men to cry. However, I only see it as an example for the contrary. Crying for men carries a weight, that implies that it must be reserved for an occasion special enough to warrant it. Had men crying at the death of their closest friend been customary, then Khamenei's voice cracking at the funeral would have never been reported as a special observation.

AnIdiotOnTheNet• 7 years ago

I fully support the premise, but it clearly ignores the reality. A man has to first be convinced that the environment around him will not reject him for crying, before expecting him to be vulnerable in such an unfamiliar way.

I dunno, I guess my conception of manliness is different because I think what makes "manly weeping" different from conventional weeping is precisely that emotion has so moved a man as to make social consequences irrelevant.

bluntfang3• 7 years ago

Men can't be the only ones battling it.

Literally everyone else but men are battling it, and very publicly. #metoo is a great example.

IfOnlyYouKnew3• 7 years ago

There have been quite a few crying men that became iconic: Mandela, I seem to remember, and also Helmuth Kohl (and, simlar: Willy Brandt on hus knees). Didn't Obama cry at one of the many church services for victims of gun violence?

And I don't believe these instances derive their power from stigma. None of these people became less respected. In fact I don't remember any man hurt by crying.

The closest is probably Boehner (former Speaker of the House). It was actually his shtick and he would cry at two or three events every week, but the worst he got for that was some mild and sympathetic mocking by Jon Stewart.

And if you want to enlist women in your fight for the right to cry, I don't quite know what you expect from them? It seems they already care rather little about performative manliness, as evidenced by the growing partisan voting gap.

scarmig4• 7 years ago

It's the difference between weeping "at a distance" versus weeping out of emotion. All the situations you mention involve a man weeping at some tragic part of the world, which I agree is broadly accepted. Same applies to, e.g., crying at a sad movie.

However, it ignores the reality that the most important kind of weeping isn't where you weep because you're recognizing something is socially coded as sad, but where you weep because you're feeling sad. Maybe you lost a job; maybe you feel like a failure; maybe you got your heart broken. And for all of these there's a substantial stigma, in that to be a Real Man(tm) you are forced to embrace your agency and act instead of feel.

A single controlled, manly tear is celebrated; messy weeping is deeply stigmatized, and many women would consider a man who does so weak and unsuitable for a relationship.

TheOperator2• 7 years ago

The thing is you're speaking entirely about men of influence.

I would have a heck of a time finding the citation but I recall one study where subjects were shown one of two people. The general idea of it was that one of the subjects was shown to get better answers on a test and generally was more successful. The other was a neer-do-well. Then both of these subjects tripped. The neer-do-well who tripped was judged even more negatively. The achiever was judged more positively. Almost as if the mistake had "humanized" them.

I also notice that when people talk about men who are in touch with their feminine side, and open about things like being sexually assaulted, we see Terry Crews types who are built like a brick shithouse and are oozing with exaggerated masculinity and success. Can man who is already judged as weak and effeminette get away wiht crying and be treated well? I don't think that's the case and in fact I think the reverse is true. If a woman in the military trying to make a name for herself bursts into tears regularly will she be seen as strong enough to not break down in the midst of battle?

On top of that point... I think you're missing that the crying in all the cases you're talking about is quite controlled. To the point of Jibes about both Boehner and Obama playing up the waterworks to drive sympathy. Neither of these men are sobbing "I can't do this job... I'm not good enough". They're sobbing at some vague distant injustice to show how much they care about something. So I'm not even sure these examples demonstrate that crying is culturally accepted... and instead they merely show that specific circumstances allow for crying (high-status man, tragedy not caused by yourself, etc)

Mandela

I think old men get an exception from cultural expectations around crying and i'm not sure why.

wavefunction• 7 years ago

I cried in public one time while discussing my dead brother with my mom. It was a foreign country as well so who knows what people were thinking. Would do it again!

downerending2• 7 years ago

In my experience, women react very negatively to my tears.

(And as for "toxic masculinity", wouldn't this be better described as "toxic femininity"?)

krapp4• 7 years ago

(And as for "toxic masculinity", wouldn't this be better described as "toxic femininity"?)

No. It's modern masculine culture that doesn't allow men to express their emotions for fear of appearing weak or "beta." The toxicity derives from that pathological aspect of masculine culture. Women doing what men do and reinforcing this toxic aspect of masculine culture are also engaging in toxic masculinity.

screye3• 7 years ago

Toxic masculinity means everything that is wrong with the image of a man in society.

Men, women and children all participate in society. Thus, the problem affects everyone.

It is the same reason that feminism is not solely about women. It is about changing societal perceptions of women in ways that ends up affecting everyone participating in society. Men, women and children alike.

jmcqk62• 7 years ago

Will a crying man be deemed as someone unsuitable for being the emotional pillar in a relationship ?
Will a crying man be seen as someone who can't deal with crisis ?
Will a crying man be seen to be a child ?

When faced with questions like these, I'm reminded of Richard Feynman and the question "What do you care what other people think?"

It seems we've reached a point where we allow our insecurities drive our actions more than anything else.

The problem is that we do not deal with our insecurities at all - they aren't even seen as a problem to fix, but something we just live with. They are not tested, because the risks are deemed too great.

Some of the greatest things in life come from damning those insecurities and just fucking doing [X].

screye3• 7 years ago

This is a thought I've gone through the motions of many times. I have gone from caring -> not caring -> to realizing that the ability to care or not is not in my hands at all.

You cannot run from nature. Humans are social animals. Everything we do is informed by society. There is no 'you' in isolation from society.

As technical/math oriented people, it is very tempting to derive humanity from 1st principles like a derivation or posing our decision making process as a controlled trial.

However, I find that to be a fallacy. Often, people who claim to not care, merely turn a blind eye to the influence of things they care about, and ironically end up being most strongly influenced by them.

An insecurity is like a squatter in your house. You can claim to not care but that only give it more licence to destroy. The real way to deal with the squatter is to be fully cognizant of it and take deliberate steps to kick the squatter out. That is a lot of caring, yet is the best way to deal with the insecurity.

TheOperator2• 7 years ago

I fully support the premise, but it clearly ignores the reality. A man has to first be convinced that the environment around him will not reject him for crying, before expecting him to be vulnerable in such an unfamiliar way.

It's irritating to read recommendations for people to effectively martyr themselves in the sake of progress.

People talk about toxic masculinity as though it is a problem created only by men.

"Toxic masculinity" is an unfortunately named term that leads to a lot of people talking past eachother since what the term means academically, and what it means colloqually/what it implies are fairly different. I think the issue is intractable enough to justify doing away with the term entirely and eventually coming up with a euphemism that means the same thing.

lordleft• 7 years ago

One the pillars of western masculinity, the Iliad, is replete with the tears of heroes. Men -- sometimes quite violent and aggressive men -- have historically felt quite free to use tears to express their anxiety and grief.

"Agamemnon shed tears as it were a dark-running stream or cataract on the side of some sheer cliff."

https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/6812.iii-4-the-l...

mjd• 7 years ago

I can call spirits from the manly weep.

Waterluvian5• 7 years ago

I've seen my dad cry once, and it involved the death of my mom. From his lack of crying I learned an important lesson that I've been sharing with my kids (1 and 2): it's okay to cry.

I cry in front of them when I'm sad. And then I talk about why I feel the way I do, and that it will be okay. My oldest is developing wonderful empathy. "Why are you sad, daddy?" And then we talk about it. He probably doesn't understand it a lot, but I know he's learning that it's okay to feel these feelings.

Sadness is not a nice feeling, but it's a valid feeling. I think too often people see sadness as a bug that needs fixing. It's okay to be sad, and then you eventually stop being sad.

Closely related to this is another lesson I learned from my dad on not what to do. He's Willy Loman levels of optimistic. Thousands of times I've heard him go on and on about how great the day was, how much progress is happening at work, how the next big breakthrough is over the next hill. But as his child growing up, I badly needed him to occasionally say, "today didn't go well. X rejected our offer and Y isn't working so we have to start over on that one. But it's okay because these days happen and tomorrow might be better." To this date I'm still struggling with the reality that life, by design, has bad days, and that's fine.

zrail3• 7 years ago

He probably doesn't understand it a lot, but I know he's learning that it's okay to feel these feelings.

You're a good dad. I've been trying to do this with my kids too (both girls). Teaching them that feelings are real, and valid, and trying to teach them ways to productively handle them.

signalremotefac4• 7 years ago

Are you being good to them? Are you doing it for them?

The person you are replying to seems to be crying AT his children. "watch me cry!" "see how I feel!" "look wife, I'm a good man now!". To me, this seems to be self-indulgence. For example he is boasting "My oldest is developing wonderful empathy." Read: I am imposing the whims of a group I see myself as been good for associating with onto my child. This is not what a father is for.

I've seen my father cry a few times. The most recent was when my cousin commited suicide. He meant it. It was not an exhibtion of his goodness, but the acknowledgment of her goodness.

remote_phone• 7 years ago

My son is a crybaby. I get that emotions are valid, etc, but he cries when he loses at video games, when he gets an answer wrong, when he doesn’t get picked to answer a question at school, when someone gets the book he wanted before he does.

We have tried everything and he’s old enough but won’t stop crying. I’m ready to just start spanking him every time he cries and to tell him that it’s not okay to just cry whenever he doesn’t get his way. It’s getting to the point where he is far too old to be acting this way and I’m at my wits end.

tartoran3• 7 years ago

Let your son cry, he will grow out of it by himself. My wife is a strong woman and she's telling me that she cried a lot when she was a kid. My nephew cried a lot when he grew up. Now he seems emotionally stronger than his peers. I cried some when I was growing up and still do occasionally when I can but mostly ran out of tears. Please do let your child cry and manifest his emotions, your trying to help might scar him.

zrail3• 7 years ago

How old is he?

Waterluvian5• 7 years ago

Some people are wired to cry when emotions of any sort are overwhelming. I was like this as a kid. I'd cry when my brothers and dad lost their shit at a Leafs goal.

It's possible you're misunderstanding why they cry. Particularly as you say they're too old for it.

Striking them to stop is a great way to really fuck them up.

If you're feeling stuck and not sure how to proceed this is absolutely an appropriate thing to talk with their physician about.

klyrs• 7 years ago

I’m ready to just start spanking him every time he cries and to tell him that it’s not okay to just cry whenever he doesn’t get his way.

This is extremely counterproductive, and this punitive attitude might be why he has so much difficulty handling his emotions. Spanking the tears out is a great way to raise a volatile misanthrope who drinks his pain away and beats his wife and kids (my dad). It sounds like what he needs is a bit of talk therapy.

Ask him why he's crying. Dig deeper. Ask him why losing at a video game illicits such a strong emotional response. Ask him why he continues to play, even if he knows that there's a risk of failure. Help him reason through this stuff, and it'll start to click after a while.

He'll enjoy this even less than spanking (which, fyi, can and does turn into a fetish for folks; yes, even straight boys can have "daddy issues"), but more importantly, you'll be equipping him with the tools he needs to process complex emotions.

This isn't meant as an insult; but you might consider therapy yourself. We all need it, even if we think our life was idyllic or that a hard life made us too tough to need the help.

octokatt• 7 years ago

For reals, this was me. Turns out, Generalized Anxiety Disorder. Spanking will not help, therapy might. Please try bringing him into a developmental psychologist if this is one of multiple symptoms of extreme distress (not being able to complete things to a deadline, unable to sleep well, difficulty making friends).

bena• 7 years ago

Behaviors are either learned or they can be learned.

So either he reacts to failure in a way he's been taught to or you can teach him to react to failure in new ways.

By spanking him when he cries, the only thing he'll really learn is that failure carries with it punishment. He'll start getting really good at hiding failure and unwilling to try things for fear of failure.

What you need to do is to teach him how to respond to failure. Part of this is by example. First, analyze how you respond to failure. How those around your son respond to failure. Do you complain, make a deal of it, treat it like something significant? Stop that.

Acknowledge the failure. Say that it was hard and that you couldn't do it. Then move on. Make light of it. Something other than dwelling on it. Get him focused on problem solving rather than dwelling. Ok, I failed. What went wrong? What can I do instead? Is it worth doing instead?

And don't acknowledge the crying. Don't give in to it. Ignore it. Don't respond to it. No threats, no withholding, no bargaining. Nothing. Act like he's not crying. Be calm, be rational, be steady. He will eventually respond in kind and respond to failure as you do.

minikites3• 7 years ago

Spanking has no positive benefit and is essentially child abuse. There is no legitimate reason to strike a child.

lopmotr• 7 years ago

We have tried everything and he’s old enough but won’t stop crying.

Going by the article and experience, it sounds like you see it as a problem that needs fixing, which means you're probably not being supportive when he does cry, and don't have or want a very intimate relationship with him. Children need care from their parents, even too much of it to the point where it annoys them! Knowing they can rely on the safety of their parents gives them confidence to take greater risks.

balfirevic• 7 years ago

I’m ready to just start spanking him every time he cries

Go pick someone your own size. No, wait, that would not be ok either. Don't fucking hit people who are not aggressive towards you.

IfOnlyYouKnew3• 7 years ago

Don’t let your son suffer your misguided ideas about masculinity.

jrumbut• 7 years ago

This is a challenge for me because I also felt the need to do the Willy Loman thing for a while but then realized that other people needed me to be more open about negative emotions or pessimism.

But I feel I've gone too far in the other direction now, that if you go through a difficult stretch you can't let yourself be a dark cloud. It doesn't help anything, people want progress, joy, hope, etc.

It's a tricky balance to find, especially since my actual internal experience seems to vary more by week or month than by day.

Waterluvian5• 7 years ago

I think optimism and humour can play a large role in bringing light to a dark time in life. You can be true to yourself and others without being a constant dark cloud.

Comedy is, if nothing else, the purest form of honesty.

ergothus• 7 years ago

I don't really cry. I don't know how to.

Don't get me wrong - I get choked up, I get teary. I'm actually rather easily emotional - any tear-jerker movie will get to me.

But once I have the emotion, I don't know how to let it out. I WANT to. When I look at my wife and female friends, they all occasionally have a good cry as an emotional outlet, and while whatever prompted that is bad, the cry itself is a good outlet. They can feel better for having done it. But me? I just feel like all the emotions are stuck and I'm clogged up.

I'm not consciously fighting it, thinking I have to protect my manhood. While others being around does make it worse, I can't have this kind of release in private either. I don't know how much is subconscious and how much is the fact that I've spent 4+ decades NOT crying and I just don't know how to.

I don't strive for the "manly weep" that the article describes - I want to be able to all out bawl and just let this out.

iamatworknow• 7 years ago

Almost the exact same story here. I'm in my mid 30's, and the last time I cried was when I was a teenager, aside from also tearing up during some movies. Definitely not like I'm fighting it, I just don't know how.

Case in point, my father passed away rather suddenly on Christmas Eve -- just two weeks ago today. We weren't super close, but I do have fond memories of him. I haven't cried once. When I was informed of his death by my brother, who was tearing up as he told me, I literally just said "Damn..." and then drove around for a few hours aimlessly thinking. It seems like I should, like I'm SUPPOSED to cry, to the point where I feel like something's wrong with me because I haven't. Now I'm concerned that weeks or months from now I'll end up being triggered by something in an inopportune public place and just start bawling. But who knows?

domador• 7 years ago

There's a phrase that macho men should start telling each other ASAP:

"Cry like a man!"

(This would mean to cry openly, deeply, and bravely, since a great many sorrows require good grieving and crying is a healthy outlet for grief. Crying is much less damaging to others and to oneself than other regrettably-common male outlets for grief, such as getting drunk and/or domestic violence.)

I hope one day crying by men becomes more acceptable to society. Life is often painful. Grieving is often necessary.

geocrasher• 7 years ago

Hello. I am a man. I cry.

And it's not always at the right time or the right amount. I'm a person who buries his feelings, but they can't help but come out. I used to bury them deeply, and didn't cope with them at all. This was seriously unhealthy and as a result, my mental health suffered.

Then I learned how to cope some, and things got better. The more I coped with my feelings instead of burying them, the more I cried. That's not to say I cry all the time, but if a song hits me the right way, or even a good dance routine on World of Dance or some other show catches my heart the right way, I'm crying. Not just weeping, but holding back deep sobs. Those deep sobs are an overreaction, of course.

Why do I have to fight deep sobs at something as simple as a touching dance routine? I think it's because I have a LOT going on in my life, some of them quite troubling. Serious health issues in my family which have altered our life significantly, and will cause damage for years to come- for a life time for my daughter and I. My wife is dying and doesn't have much time left. And while I try to be brave for her, she knows how much it troubles me- despite that I have a firm hope for the future and I know it'll all be okay in the end- it still troubles me. For her sake I try to hold back my tears, but this backfires. What was a suppressed weep here and a stifled weep there is suddenly gushing forth right in the middle of a less serious discussion! It's not the right time.

Why do these inopportune things happen? Because I've not learned to be okay with crying. If I could manage to be okay with having many smaller sessions of crying, at the right times, then these outbursts of crying wouldn't be there. As it is I hold them back enough that they'll eventually come out in a more dramatic scream sobbing fit that lasts several minutes and usually leaves me without a voice for a week.

Weeping isn't manly. Weeping isn't for women. Weeping is for humans.

Hello. I am a human. I cry.

Whatever happened to the noble art of the manly weep?

Related Stories