The Amazon Transparency Program Is a Counterfeiter's Worst Nightmare

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kirimasters/2019/01/03/the-amazon-transparency-program-is-a-counterfeiters-worst-nightmare/#77d3c85776aa

by deegles • 7 years ago

44 67 7 years ago

forbes.com

Jamwinner• 7 years ago

I hope they rush this. They are already a retailer I systematically avoid, dispite being a prime member, when authenticity matters. When I have time I ocassionally gamble, but have been less and less successful getting authentic items as time passes. Even if you dislike amazon (i am personally, torn), getting this right benefits everyone selling things online if it proves practical to implement.

deelowe• 7 years ago

How practical is it really? Having to print and track individually serialized barcodes for every product you sell, sounds like it can be anything from a nearly 0 cost step to a complete logistical nightmare depending on the manufacturing process.

danesparza2• 7 years ago

How badly are you being counterfeited and how much do you want to avoid lost sales?

fredley• 7 years ago

In order to not be trivially defeatable, it sounds quite hard. You can't, for example, use sequential blocks of ids — far too easy for a counterfeiter to reverse-engineer valid ranges. Which means that you either generate them through some cryptographic signing process - non trivial and the risk of compromised keys, or just generate random guids centrally meaning there's a request/response somewhere in the production cycle to get ids, or batches of ids - also non trivial.

The whole thing sounds like it's a really obvious and simple solution at a glance, but as you dig into it it seems hard, especially for smaller players, and only shifts the counterfeiters' workload (now you need to figure out how to steal barcodes, not impossible depending on how much money you invest).

gketuma• 7 years ago

This is the reason why I cancelled my Prime account. I could not trust the electronics I buy on Amazon. Too many fake items sourced directly from shenzhen. Now I go directly to the manufacturer's website and pay full price (which is usually about $10 more), and at least I know I'm getting the real thing.

skuthus• 7 years ago

What are you buying that you have had issues with?

bumbledraven• 7 years ago

Yeah. I just bought an $800 pair of binoculars for my dad's birthday from bhphotovideo.com. Normally I would use amazon, but I didn't want to risk getting a counterfeit, and I trust bhphotovideo more.

x0x04• 7 years ago

I struggle to see why a brand would be willing to share sensitive sales data with Amazon as this program requires. How many units produced, and production times.

Amazon already uses every scrap if data they get too compete, including via their expanding house brands

asah2• 7 years ago

Sorry for the dumb question, why wouldn't amazon already have this? how does this share a brand's non-Amazon channel volumes? e.g. sales volume on their own website, retail, etc.

x0x04• 7 years ago

transparency requires a per-unit sticker with a unique code. Brands do not generally share exact volumes per product or their production rates.

chance_state2• 7 years ago

So not only does Amazon co-mingle inventory to cause this problem in the first place, but then they turn around and charge brands if they want to enter this anti-counterfeit program. Incredible.

dragonwriter3• 7 years ago

It's a standard protection racket; create and profit from crime, and then charge the victims for your protection against the crime you are profiting from so you profit either way.

journalctl3• 7 years ago

What’re the odds of using RICO here?

Nasrudith2• 7 years ago

That is quite the inversion of burden of proof there. Amazon is a marketplace in the first place as opposed to a portal of stores. They sell by product. They have no obligation to do otherwise or to bar all secondary sellers. It is a privledge in the first place and they are entitled to demand that it not be used to shut out secondary markets.

chance_state2• 7 years ago

They have no obligation to do otherwise or to bar all secondary sellers.

Even secondary sellers of counterfeit goods? Of course they are.

dmwallin• 7 years ago

So create a system that encourages abuse, profit from that abuse at the expense of brands, and then charge those companies to use your proprietary tracking system if they want to eliminate it? This is straight out of a racketeering playbook, "It would be a shame if someone counterfeited your products and ruined your brand..."

This is Amazon's problem and they should be responsible and accountable for this.

This article is low quality and reads like it's straight out of Amazon's PR team, with no actual analysis.

DanTheManPR• 7 years ago

This article is low quality and reads like it's straight out of Amazon's PR team, with no actual analysis.

http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html

papreclip• 7 years ago

I don't think I fully understand your perspective. Aside from simply offering a marketplace on which people may sell various products, what has Amazon done to encourage abuse?

harimau7772• 7 years ago

I don't necessarily know their validity one way or the other, but the points that tend to be made are:

- In today's world, Amazon isn't just a marketplace, it is THE marketplace. For many brands, not selling on Amazon isn't a realistic option.

- Amazon's marketplace makes it very easy to counterfeit due to co-mingling, the difficulty of holding foreign sellers accountable, and the prevalence of fake reviews.

- Amazon has done little if anything to combat counterfeiting.

dragontamer• 7 years ago

what has Amazon done to encourage abuse?

Co-mingling of products at the warehouse. When you buy from Amazon, you don't actually know which "seller" is supplying the goods. They all were comingled at the Warehouse.

Even "Sold by Amazon" and "Fufilled by Amazon" products are comingled. Leading to: https://twitter.com/billpollock/status/1183094406573748225

Amazon, instead of fixing the comingling problem, has decided to charge the legitimate companies (ex: No Starch Press) for anti-counterfeiting defenses. Amazon is destroying No Starch Press's reputation by shipping shoddy low-quality counterfeit books, but its No Starch Press who has to pay the price to fix the problem.

makomk• 7 years ago

The big difference between Amazon and other marketplaces is that Amazon have done their best to not make it look or act like a marketplace. Like, if you look at a listing on eBay there's a prominent seller information pane telling you which user you're buying from, their feedback history, etc. On Amazon there's just a single unobtrusive "sold by" line which blends into the rest of the page. Not only that, if you or someone else comes back to the same listing a few hours later the product could be coming from a completely different seller - Amazon decides who they want to direct your purchase to based on secret algorithmic factors.

jinushaun• 7 years ago

Co-mingling inventory.

Amazon isn't a marketplace. It's warehouse where the real goods are mixed in with the fake goods and you can't buy directly from a specific seller.

The fix is to stop co-mingling and allow users to buy directly from a seller. That would be a true marketplace platform. Sellers shouldn't need to pay Amazon for an add-on anti-counterfeiting service to fix a problem they created.

sdinsn2• 7 years ago

It's strange how you attack specifically Amazon for this, while every e-commerce platform that allows 3rd party sellers has this problem. Amazon is the only one doing something about it; they should be applauded.

me_me_me• 7 years ago

let's not go into whataboutism. Amazon is the biggest player so of course it has to be scrutinized the most.

ProZsolt• 7 years ago

Amazon caused the problem by mixing inventory. You are a legit seller who sells product A and there is another seller who sells a counterfeit product A. Even if a customer buys from you it can receive a counterfeit product.

asah2• 7 years ago

Seems like any e-commerce aggregator (e.g. eBay, craigslist, etc) has the same counterfeiting problem - at least Amazon is offering a solution.

kube-system• 7 years ago

I don't have the same magnitude of issues on eBay as I have had on Amazon. Much of the problem is exacerbated their commingled inventory and consolidated product pages.

On eBay it is two clicks to see the negative feedback for the seller who is shipping me the item, and I have the confidence that I am going to get the item from that seller.

On Amazon, users post much of the negative feedback on the consolidated product page which doesn't give any indication about the seller, and might not even be for the right product. And in the end, fungible FBA inventory is a roll of the dice. This is a problem that never existed on eBay.

wiradikusuma• 7 years ago

Or, why don't a 3rd party provide this, and provide a website isthislegit.com/THERANDOMID (typing or API or QR) that returns red or green? Hey, startup idea!

anteatersa• 7 years ago

The code has to be logged at Amazon warehouse though so it can linked to your amazon account number. Manufacturer -> Distributor -> Customer. Otherwise I could buy one real product off Amazon, copy the code onto my fake product and sell on Amazon marketplace.

hangonhn• 7 years ago

The problem is that you don't know if it is counterfeit until you get the item and scan the code. That's only marginally better than the status quo -- most counterfeits on Amazon are rather easy to spot once you have it in person.

With Amazon's program, they can do it when they accept the shipment and potentially destroy the entire stock of the seller's wares.

phowat• 7 years ago

Cuban cigars have this: http://verificacion.habanos.com/

The biggest issue is with people taking authentic packages, filling with fake cigars and selling it.

donarb• 7 years ago

This sounds like a good idea if major product producers could join together to create a standard for labeling all consumer goods. This could be used to identify food packages for recalls.

quantified• 7 years ago

How long until the first substantial successful subversion of this? (Success defined as >USD 100K of sales, or destruction of >10K of a competitor's goods)

How long until it's made public?

The Amazon Transparency Program Is a Counterfeiter's Worst Nightmare

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