Ask HN: Bet the farm. Python or PHP?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=211782

by t0pj • 18 years ago

24 103 18 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

1. Extensive support of libraries and frameworks. 2. Excellent community. 3. Rapidly develop and deploy. 4. Capable of scaling quite well.

Python and PHP score well on all four of these points.

I am about to embark on building a web app; calendar/scheduling/notifications with some social networking and people matching/search functionality. The site will be highly configurable/maintainable by it's community from establishing/interacting within groups to tweeking page layouts.

So far, I have chosen this stack:

Ubuntu, Apache (dynamic content), thttpd (static content), MySql, memcached.

I'm quite experienced in Perl but just a beginner in both Python and PHP yet I am determined to use either Python or PHP in my latest project.

I'm looking for the pros/cons and any other tips from the HN community. I'm at a fork in the road and I guess that once I make this choice, it'll be quite difficult switching after the initial framework is built out.

I'm not sure if I have/haven't given enough information to go on but I would appreciate everyone's input, not only on PHP or Python but on any of the other technologies I have chosen as well as critiquing my (currently vaporware) web app.

So which is it; PHP or Python?

lakeeffect• 18 years ago

Python, It is more responsive than php.

t0pj23• 18 years ago

By more responsive, you mean from rendering the html/css/js sent back to the browser? Or more responsive when connecting to the back-end MySql database?

If you could elaborate, I'd appreciate it. Thanks!

jrockway10• 18 years ago

Why throw away Perl? You already know Perl, and Perl has lots of things that PHP and Python don't. Before you ditch Perl, look at DBIx::Class, Moose, and Catalyst. And the other 10,000 libraries on CPAN.

Then look at the 500 or so libraries available for PHP.

Perl has a really insane library culture, and it's very hard to give that up. I like the syntax of other languages better (Lisp is my favorite), but it's hard to give up the millions of hours of free work called the CPAN. Perl also has great tools for testing (see how many Test:: modules there are), and it has a culture of testing. So the libraries you download from the CPAN aren't some untested i-hacked-it-together-while-drunk snippets of code; they're all very carefully tested. What it boils down to is that when you move your app from development to production, you'll be reasonably sure that your libraries (and app) still work.

One line summary: Perl has more features and libraries than the alternatives, and you already know it! I think the choice is a no-brainer.

t0pj23• 18 years ago

I really would like to use PHP or Python in a big project to at least get some experience.

I tell ya, I do love Perl.

With limited exposure to PHP and Python, could you elaborate on some of the things PHP and Python are lacking compared to Perl?

emmett• 18 years ago

Neither PHP nor Python have anything approaching CPAN. Ruby is slightly closer with Gems, but even that's a joke compared to the might of Perl libraries. Seriously, that's the big thing that's missing. Other than that both PHP and Python are prefectly servicable, although you're going to have an easier time finding smart Python developers than smart PHP developers (Blub hiring paradox).

xirium• 18 years ago

Most fundamentally, PHP combines Perl's array and hash data structures. Although you can access name/value pairs as even and odd array elements, code that doesn't need both sets of properties will run slower and consume more memory because a structure implementing both sets of properties is implemented automatically.

Why use a languge like that when you're already familiar with Perl?

iamdave2• 18 years ago

>calendar/scheduling/notifications with some social networking

Why?

More and more web apps are coming out with social networking tied in, and very few of them succeed BECAUSE they have social networking tied in. Socializing a site is a bit more than giving people profile pages and enabling them the ability to "friend" people, at least that's how I look at it.

So my question to you is this: how are you planning to make the social aspect of your site actually work? How are you going to make the ad hoc benefits of social networking replicate to an online presence? Will people actually benefit from socializing, or are they just going to have friends who they will have the extraneous ability to leave comments about?

t0pj23• 18 years ago

Wow. Lots of questions. Thanks!

On a plan to make the social aspect work, is there a finite list of ways to choose from? I don't believe there's really only one way. It definitely seems that "social networking" could have a negative effect on my plan yet I hope to do things a little differently.

There will be some socializing benefits.

iamdave2• 18 years ago

When I say "how" I don't mean are you going to use OpenSocial or anything like that. I mean when you implement it, how are you going to make it useful?

underscore• 18 years ago

What are your feelings as a beginner in each language? Have you found any little design decisions that leave you scratching your head, or make you start cursing loudly at the computer? Have you built anything with them? If so, did you run into any issues that you feel were a result of the language?

I'm a bit of a hedonist, but if I were in your situation, I'd probably try to pick the one that was the most fun to work with. As you say, once you've started building, it won't be (or maybe for you it will be?) as easy to switch, and you probably don't want to figure out that you hate coding in whatever you've chosen while trying to finish your web app.

When in a variant of your situation (PHP/a PHP framework versus Python/Django), I chose Python. I'm not you, so we may have totally different tastes and may have come to a different conclusion given the facts. I've been pretty happy with my choice, though.

t0pj23• 18 years ago

Thus far, I've built very simple pieces of PHP such as logins, maintaining sessions, writing/reading to/from MySql. My one concern with PHP is the overwhelming "alphabet soup" of functions.

I haven't done anything web-facing with Python just yet, just using it to; parse files, some socket programming - basically getting a feel for the language.

So far, I couldn't say I've run into any issues resulting directly from the languages themselves.

Thanks for the input.

rms2• 18 years ago

Python... both languages are along far enough that they will meet all four of your points, but people that program in python are on average better programmers than PHP programmers. So it makes hiring good hackers easier by eliminating many of the bad hackers.

Other than that, if you like the syntax of PHP, it is as good as python as long as you program using the MVC paradigm. Personally I like the syntax of python a whole lot more than PHP.

t0pj23• 18 years ago

I guess, for a lot of people, PHP would be easier to dive into than Python?

I get your point; without any other knowledge, you'd be better off selecting from a pool of Python developers than PHP developers when looking for good hackers. Correct?

Although I would be able to somehow separate the good hackers from bad by initially chosing Python, would you say that good hackers would also stay clear of opportunities where PHP is involved? What would facebook think about that? ;)

Just want to know your thoughts. Thanks.

xlnt2• 18 years ago

php is not easier to dive into. it's messy and confusing. python and ruby are some of the easiest languages to learn.

jrockway10• 18 years ago

You won't find any PHP hackers. The good PHP developers realized that PHP was a waste of their time a long time ago. All the novices have significantly lowered the average PHP developer's salary compared to other languages. Basically, there's no skill and no money in PHP, so the good people don't use it.

mrtron2• 18 years ago

I would agreee Python really is 'that language'.

Python brought me back from a bored and frustrated programmer using Java to a hacker. I have programmed in Java since then and have been much better as a result of my work with Python.

PHP in my opinion is a very weak option today, and I think you would be crazy choosing it in 2008. I worked extensively in it about 8 years ago, but it's time has passed.

Like you mentioned, consider using MVC with Python. The separation between business logic and display code is priceless, and I guarantee if you do not clearly break apart these two you will run into huge problems.

yourabi• 18 years ago

Go with Python. PHP is probably the worst language I've had to use (Single namespace, poor unicode...)

Python on the other hand is pretty cool. It can be OO, functional, or procedural depending on how you want to look at it. It also has a lot baked into the standard interpreter and has some really awesome frameworks (Django, Pylons)

t0pj23• 18 years ago

Single namespace in PHP - Ouch. You can gracefully get around this with classes perhaps?

Any thoughts on PHP frameworks?

On Python, I've heard that TurboGears is a pretty good framework as well.

I remember reading somewhere that you don't run Django, it runs you. Any fiction in that?

wensing3• 18 years ago

you don't run Django, it runs you

I use Django (GeoDjango actually) at my full-time job, and love it. My progression was PHP -> Python -> TurboGears -> Pylons -> Django. I can say with confidence that it is the best of them all. Yes, many choices have been made for you, but they have been made in an elegant, Pythonic way, and you retain the ability to get under the hood to a healthy extent.

neovive• 18 years ago

Coming from a Perl background, you would probably be more comfortable with PHP. Definitely checkout the KohanaPHP framework (www.kohanaphp.com) for a solid, well-designed PHP5 MVC framework, With a good framework, you can write very readable and maintainable code.

zain• 18 years ago

"Any thoughts on PHP frameworks?"

CakePHP is a powerful, popular one. It gives you Ruby/Django's famed MVC in PHP.

Xichekolas• 18 years ago

Not sure if first class functions matter to you, but last time I checked, PHP didn't have them, which is a major annoyance for me.

I also find PHP to be quite the cognitive overhead. The libraries seem to lack consistent naming conventions and since it's all one global namespace, there are a LOT of names to remember. Coding in PHP often feels like repeatedly looking up library functions and 'assembling' them, rather than 'writing' something.

wvenable• 18 years ago

PHP. So in a year down the road, you won't have to make the switch to it like everyone else has.

t0pj23• 18 years ago

Should I read that as a little tongue-in-cheek? :)

Everyone else has switched to PHP? Explain, please.

binglo2• 18 years ago

Why are you determined to use either Python or PHP in this latest project?

I would make sure you have a good answer to that question before using something besides Perl.

t0pj23• 18 years ago

I actually know Perl and Java pretty darn well.

I wish to constantly expand my understanding of computing in general, and learning a new language is a great way to go.

I hope to not only learn a new syntax or two but also learn to think in different ways. This works with human languages, too. Yosh!

binglo2• 18 years ago

Ah. Ok, then that makes things easier.

For your case, don't use Python, nor PHP. Both are pretty much just like Perl and Java with only minor syntax changes.

If you want to expand your understanding of computing in general, while also learning a new language, and while doing a webapp, if I were you I'd learn Common Lisp and try out Hunchentoot. There's even some screencasts for that setup floating around.

Going with Python or PHP after Perl and Java is not going to be terribly enlightening for you.

bayareaguy2• 18 years ago

Why two web servers (thttpd and apache) instead of just one, say lighttpd or nginx?

t0pj23• 18 years ago

If I go with PHP, Apache will be running non-threaded.

To run Apache/PHP as lean as possible, I'll take advantage of thttpd's polling to quickly serve up any static content I have to as many simultaneous connections as possible.

I haven't taken a really deep look at lighttpd nor nginx.

I see what you mean though, why would I use two distinctly different http servers where one would simply do?

Could you give me some hints as to what I'm missing out on if I stay with Apache and thttpd or what I'd gain going to either nginx or lighttpd?

Thanks!

rcoder• 18 years ago

Apache buys you two things: rock-solid, time-tested stability, and millions of words of writing both online and in print about administration and tuning.

Lighty and Nginx are both (like thttpd) leaner, potentially faster, and "sexier." Neither has the proven stability or community that Apache does, and neither is going to help much if your bottlenecks are at the application layer, rather than just shooting raw bits over a network cable.

bayareaguy2• 18 years ago

nginx seems to be the "in" server with the Rails crowd.

For some things lighttpd is easier to configure than Apache and if you're running a recent version there are neat things you can do with it's lua support, e.g. http://blog.innerfence.com/2008/05/31/presto-move-content-to...

Apache is probably better for people who want to worry about their app first and their infrastructure second. After your app is under control and you have time to worry about performance and configuration then you may want to look at the others.

Then there's also other servers like Squid and thttpd. If you don't know why you would want one of them then you're probably better off not thinking about them for now. To be honest I don't know what thttpd has going for it these days. A previous company I worked for standardized on it early on and then ended up adding so much to it they would have probably been better going with Apache.

Anyone here have any good reasons to go thttpd?

SwellJoe4• 18 years ago

Or just Apache. Apache serves static content faster than the vast majority of us will ever need, and dynamic content as fast as Lighttpd or nginx, in general (because the slow part is the code in Python, or PHP, or Ruby, or Perl). Run WSGI or mod_fcgid or mod_rails, or whatever, so your interpreter only spawns once, configure Apache appropriately, and you'll be fine for all but the most insane loads.

treed• 18 years ago

Python. For a lot of reasons. It's easy. It has a lot of libraries. The Python based CMSs are better. And most importantly it's easier to find decent python programmers. The vast majority of PHP guys I have interviewed ONLY know one language: PHP. The python guys tend to be much more well rounded. Of course the PHP guys are usually cheaper. You get what you pay for in this case. I would also have to recommend against perl. I did perl for 10 years before I switched to python 4 years ago. I think their philosophies say it all: Perl: There's more than one way to do it. Python: There's one obviously right way to do it. Sure, that's a huge generalization but I find it true in a lot of cases. Perl really is line noise compared to Python. And reading someone else's Perl is a real challenge.

t0pj23• 18 years ago

I can tell ya that reading and understanding some of my own Perl from even 3 or 4 years ago is a real challenge. ;)

All I can say is that I hope I'm getting better.

mechanical_fish• 18 years ago

calendar/scheduling/notifications with some social networking and people matching/search functionality. The site will be highly configurable/maintainable by its community from establishing/interacting within groups to tweeking page layouts.

How much of your app can be built by hooking together existing Drupal modules?

If the answer is "lots" -- and because your brief description sounds like a long list of stock parts from the Social Network aisle at Costco, I wouldn't be surprised if it is -- perhaps you should consider Drupal. Which means PHP, alas, but that's a small price to pay for avoiding the annoyance of building every single one of your site's 120,000 proposed features yourself, from scratch.

If the answer is "a lot, except for features X and Y, and I hate Drupal's existing, buggy options for Z" the Drupal community will be really happy to see you develop and contribute open-source code that can do X and Y. And we probably all hate Z, so fix it and you'll be our hero. You'll have plenty of time to work on Z because you won't be spending time redeveloping things like "basic user logins with emailed password reminders", or "users can create and join groups which have their own subsites" from scratch -- yet again -- in a language whose idioms you haven't learned yet.

If the answer is "not much"... may I suggest that you seriously reduce the scope of your first project?

Of course, if the proposed app is less of an actual future product than it is an excuse to broaden your mind by learning a language that's not Perl or Java, you should probably grab onto Python or Ruby with both hands. PHP has many practical features, but it doesn't have much to teach a Perl programmer.

t0pj23• 18 years ago

I appreciate the advice.

You know, I sometimes feel as though I'm living under a rock. It pains me to expose my naiveté, but I never really heard of (even the word) Drupal until about a month ago and all of a sudden /bam/ I must've overheard Drupal in conversations at least three or four times since then. I never really put two-and-two together on this one; selective hearing perhaps?

I tell ya, I'm always learnin' something new.

Thanks for opening my eyes.

wensing3• 18 years ago

Python. It is more powerful with an extremely flat learning curve. In other words, you don't hit many walls with it. When you want to do something more powerful, the answer is 'right there'--it fits the brain.

This is a bit dated but may help: http://www.artima.com/intv/prodperfP.html

t0pj23• 18 years ago

Once again, I appreciate the links. Thanks.

hsmyers• 18 years ago

Learning curve is flat but with caltrops...

thorax3• 18 years ago

I loooove Python. But if asked to "bet the farm" on a web app, I'd go with PHP because it's been successfully demonstrated again in again in every form of web app you can imagine. In a year, I'd recommend Python, but I still find Django and the other web frameworks a bit too immature and clunky to do things that PHP has been hacking with for years and years. As much as I hate to say it, for the Python community the web server has been an afterthought until the past two years. PHP was bred there.

I probably would say it's a closer call if we hadn't found a great MVC framework for PHP called Code Igniter that just makes PHP (of all things) much more pleasurable to hack in than it used to be.

All this being said, you're not risking much by going with Python/Django. But if the farm is on the line, I'd personally have to go with LAMPhp.

t0pj23• 18 years ago

Code Igniter framework for PHP.

Thanks. I'll take a look at that.

MikeW• 18 years ago

My personal gripe with Code Igniter is that it doesn't have a built-in templating language (this is by design).

I absolutely love Smarty (smarty.net) and highly recommend it and have used it in many projects so far.

There have been attempts to integrate Smarty into CI but I saw a benchmark that showed that combination was unacceptably slow and won't scale well.

markbao• 18 years ago

CodeIgniter seconded. Makes PHP programming a lot easier. Also check out CodeIgniter fork Kohana. I use it to run an advertising network, works really well - ORM and tons of libraries (and of course, being open-source) makes it great.

jamongkad• 18 years ago

Yup I have to admit CodeIgniter rocks. Made hacking in PHP worthwhile again.

bjclark• 18 years ago

Ruby

tubby2• 18 years ago

Slow

sachinag• 18 years ago

I spent a lot of time bellyaching about this when starting my company - looking at PHP, Perl (preferred by the devs), and Python (preferred by the advisers I trust).

In the end, we went PHP, and it was hugely lucky - we were able to hire a couple of devs on very short notice because we were in PHP, even though we use a less popular framework called Qcodo. After they were hired, I asked them what they thought, and there was no way they were going to learn a new language to join us, but they were ok learning a new framework.

My feeling is that PHP has the largest base of developers out there, and that means that you've got the biggest base of potential co-workers. If you yourself are a great hacker, you can prop up whoever else you're working with. If you're building an app/business to scale, you have to have other hackers join you.

Hell, Apple has a hard time finding Objective C hackers, and they're Apple.

t0pj23• 18 years ago

Another PHP framework: Qcodo. Thanks.

I think, maybe wishfully, that the product will need to scale which means bringing on other hackers to join.

neilc• 18 years ago

If you're hiring candidates that wouldn't consider learning a new language to join an interesting startup -- well, good luck!

menloparkbum• 18 years ago

I've used all three of the languages you mention for relatively large web applications. People will say PHP sucks because it is ugly and retarded and only has one namespace. People will say Python sucks because of the whitespace issue and mod_python doesn't work on a $5/m shared hosting plan. Perl sucks of course because "the syntax is crazy!" But, huge sites are built in PHP (Facebook, Hype Machine, Flickr, half of Yahoo!), Python (much of Google) and Perl (craig's list). In my experience they are all about equivalent except for aesthetic reasons.

The headaches in a web app are usually at the user interface level (DOM/CSS/Javascript) and at the systems level (there's a bug in fast cgi! MySQL imploded!) and language choice gluing it all together is mostly a matter of taste. People with taste overestimate its importance. You can get pretty far in the internet biz with no taste (MySpace... originally done in COLD FUSION).

That said, the most tasteful option out of your choices is Python.

t0pj23• 18 years ago

You can get pretty far in the internet biz with no taste (MySpace... originally done in COLD FUSION).

And don't forget those non-tasty table/tr/td non-div tags MySpace is also known for. ;)

Anyway, I think you have a point. Thanks for your insight.

iamelgringo• 18 years ago

Mod up for saying that language choice is primarily a matter of taste.

But, there were a few other considerations for me when I chose Python as my development language over PHP and Ruby.

I think that as far as language growth is concerned, Python has more buzz right now (no disrespect to PHP or Ruby intended). Google's app engine is all about Python right now, and that's going to dramatically increase the traction of Python in the web development world. Google is actively supporting Python development. Google has a lot riding on Python because it's one of the 4 sanctioned languages at the GOOG. I could be wrong, but I get the impression that Python is growing as a community and as a language faster than Ruby. This is why I chose Python over Ruby.

I also chose Python, because I think that there's aspects to Python that will broaden my horizons and stretch me as a programmer as I learn it. I don't really get that impression with PHP. All things being equal, I'd rather learn a language that will stretch me as a programmer.

hello_moto2• 18 years ago

Most of Google products were written in C++ or Java.

GMail - Not Python

AdSense - Not Python

GMaps - Not Python

Search - Not Python

lyime• 18 years ago

source?

tubby2• 18 years ago

PHP. Why? Because if you ever move your app to a hosted server, you'll have tons of hosting options with PHP. Only a few with Python.

t0pj23• 18 years ago

Hopefully, PHP would still be the right choice for me if I then have to move beyond the single hosted server.

That is interesting though; that there does seem to be a ton of hosting options with PHP versus Python.

andreyf• 18 years ago

Python has functions as first-class objects, very simple namespaces (files/folders), generators, and a cleaner syntax not to mention a thriving, growing community, much more helpful/intelligent (at least in my experience) than PHP's.

PHP has a lot of coders that are one step about script-copy-pasters.

No questions about it - Python is the way to go.

talkaboutadate• 18 years ago

Why don't you do a small prototype in both, and see where each one takes you? I'm not really a programmer, but I've got a dating web app running on around 50 pages of php.

terminator• 18 years ago

The best advice is try both PHP and Python and choose the one that matches your taste.

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=php+sucks http://www.google.co.in/search?q=python+sucks http://www.google.co.in/search?q=django+sucks

Hexayurt• 18 years ago

Python. PHP is really good for hacking things out, and there's a case to be made for using Python for the back end programming, and odds-and-sods of PHP to extract data into templates and so on - but fundamentally if you have real code to write, use Python.

PHP ain't bad, but PHP code is fragile. The language, over a year or two, meanders about breaking code willy-nilly, and that alone is good enough reason to steer clear of it for serious applications.

schtog• 18 years ago

i never used Perl, one of the few languages i havent even tested.

so it has a culture of libraries people say but what kind?

making a lot of really high-quality ones like in python or just spewing out tons of buggy libraries with poor documentation and it is hard to find what you need or something in between?

RobertL• 18 years ago

Excellent discussion by some obviously very experienced and intelligent people. I haven't used Perl too much, I'm much more experienced in Python and PHP, but I think all are capable languages.

I think the most important things to consider are things that you can't really relate effectively to a forum discussion like this and that is what your real skill levels at each of these languages is and the availability of skill in your area and network of friends.

I would lean more to those factors for making the final decision because it makes no matter that python might have wome extremely elegant and powerful syntax or library for coding a specific functionality if nobody working on the project is familiar enough with the language know the syntax or the library.

The primary investment in any new app like this is "developer time". Managing that resource requires the juggling of many more factors than the capabilities of any given language.

mojuba• 18 years ago

Don't worry about "Extensive support of libraries and frameworks", you don't need it. All web sites I built, large and small, required only two additional components: the DB glue (typically mysql) and UTF support (mbstring). There may be specific situations when you might want to send https requests or use compression, but that's ok, even that is not called "extensive libraries and frameworks". The bottom line is, a good web site has a clean, simple source that doesn't depend on third-party code that much.

siculars• 18 years ago

python

metajack• 18 years ago

Language isn't as important as the framework you will use for developing the web app. Have you looked at Django vs. Simfony, etc? Why not consider Ruby and Ruby on Rails?

I tend to choose Python and more specifically Django.

fedecarg• 18 years ago

1. Based on content management: PHP. The biggest publishing site on the Web, Wordpress, uses it.

2. Based on libraries: PHP. You have PECL, PEAR, ezComponent, Zend and many others. Whatever you need, it has it.

3. Based on syntax: PHP. It's damn simple.

4. Based on deployment: PHP. It's fast and painless.

5. Based on execution model. PHP. mod_php, as an apache module, works and it’s scalable.

6. Based on frameworks: PHP. Symfony and Zend Framework offer a modular, MVC, loosely-couple architecture. They not only provide a solid infrastructure, but also an extensive component library.

7. Based on performance: Any, as long as you cache everything.

Good luck!

Ask HN: Bet the farm. Python or PHP?

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